Texas method with the snatch

[armakuni]

Hi Coach

I really have enjoyed training based on the Texas method. I have added the snatch to my program with basic barbell exercises. I like the snatch and practically it has also replaced power clean in my program. I just do two small sets of power clean each week. The problem is that I have failed to add snatches correctly to my program. I have been doing the snatch for little over a year now. I started doing the snatch every other workout and for last few months I wanted to train them "really". First I started like this:
High volume day: 5 sets of 5 reps
Light day: 2 sets of 3 reps
High intensity: 1RM

I very soon realized this to be stupid. The problem was the volume day. I remembered that in Practical Programming it was said that weightlifting exercises should be done for low reps. Actually in Practical Programming (p. 170) it says that it's normal to limit snatches to singles or doubles. I thought that I knew better but I didn't. So I changed volume day to this:
High volume day:
Snatch: 6 sets of 3 reps
Power snatch: 1 set of 5 reps

The reasoning being that I have to get as much reps as for example in squat (5x5). But this still feels quite demanding. The problem is that I'm afraid to do low reps (1-2) because I don't want do so many sets and use so much time doing them. But maybe it's not necessary to do so many total reps because strength is already built with other basic barbell exercises?

So my questions for you if you have time to answer them are:
1. Is it a good idea to replace power clean with the snatch?
2. In Practical Programming there are two sample templates (p. 179 and 182) shown in Texas method part for squat and pressing. Could you give some basic template for the snatch?

Since my last post I have bought Strong Enough and Basic Barbell Training DVD. I really have enjoyed both. Thanks for them. I found Strong Enough very inspirational and I really enjoyed the background stories and the old pictures. I was also very happy to see that the DVD worked just fine here in Europe.

[Mark Rippetoe]

You have to understand that adequate volume on the snatch means that you will have a longer workout, due to the necessity of building up your volume with multiple sets of doubles or singles. It's part of the work, and there is no other serious way to approach it if you want to train it correctly. You can't really replace the clean with the snatch because the loads are so much lighter that it produces a different quality of volume. I think that your template depends on whether you do the snatch as an Olympic lifter, or as a general strength training exercise. If the former, there are lots of Olympic lifting templates to use. The latter merely requires that you snatch once a week, and at your level you can vary the workouts from week to week, alternating volume with intensity, for a good general effect.

[Peter Andersen]

Following on from that, but going back to the novice level...

You mentioned here (http://www.strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4874) that you would teach people with long forearms relative to their humerus to power snatch instead of cleaning. How would you program the power snatch into the basic starting strength routine in terms of sets and reps? Is there a standard scheme that you use?

Cheers

[Mark Rippetoe]

I'd use 5 x 2 reps across after warmups on the same days the cleans would be done.

[armakuni]

Thank you for your answer. You made me think which is good. I will definitely train power cleans more. I just thought that power clean and snatch share the same power element but you are right that the snatches are lighter. I am using the snatch as a general exercise because I find it very useful and challenging. I am lifting for strength and conditioning but I would also like to see good snatch results. So I thought my program and I came up with something like this for the snatch:
High volume day: 5 sets of 1 rep or 3 sets of 2 reps (alternating)
Light day: 3 sets of 1 rep
High intensity: heavy single

I noticed previously that my "technique" suffers if I train the snatch only once a week so I thought to spread snatches to every training day. But now the volume should not be as big as previously in my program for a week. If possible I'd like to hear your opinion about my changes in my program.

About snatch technique I'd just like to say that I have tried the first pull with more upright angle but could not get it work as well as with the pulling mechanics taught in Starting Strength. It just works better at least for me.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Most rational people will admit they pull better this way. When are you going to clean?

[Roland83]

I'm really interested on your thoughts on this Coach. I read recently I think in an article on the Cathletics site, about how because in the Olympic lifts the first pull is submaximal, you can pull with a more verticle back with your hips further down to set you in a better position for the second pull.

I agree that obviously because it is submaximal you could pull it with different mechanics, but does this actually set you up for a better second pull position?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Obviously not, because nobody lifting any weight at all in either the snatch or the clean goes into the second pull with a vertical back.

[theuofh]

I'm really interested on your thoughts on this Coach. I read recently I think in an article on the Cathletics site, about how because in the Olympic lifts the first pull is submaximal, you can pull with a more verticle back with your hips further down to set you in a better position for the second pull.

I agree that obviously because it is submaximal you could pull it with different mechanics, but does this actually set you up for a better second pull position?

Did you read the whole article? The article is very clear on the statement that the point of the first pull is to obtain the optimal position for the second pull, and the article goes into a great amount of detail why.

I'm not in a position to critique the material presented, but there is a large amount of material in there (~9 pages) on the subject of the vertical back angle and the starting position in general. It does address why the vertical back angle helps to set up an optimal second pull.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I read the whole article. Despite the fact that it is long and that there are lots of arguments for the point, it doesn't change the fact that this is not how lifters pull through the middle, and that therefore the arguments are wrong. My position on this is well known to anyone interested. But don't believe me: watch a lot of videos for yourself, coach a lot of lifters, and come to your own conclusions.

[JLascek]

It is particularly interesting to observe the people that coach the vertical position getting pulled to a point where their scapulae are over the bar.

In any case, it's not like Rip has any Olympic lifting background or experience to validate his argument...
http://strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4271

[Roland83]

Thanks Coach.

I was really interested in your view on this after reading all your material on the deadlift, different i know, and then watching heaps of vids of people trying to get into the position they think will work, and ending up in the position exactly as you explain before the bar actually moves off the ground.

So when I read this explanation about the olympic lifts and the first pull being submaximal i found it interesting and watched some more olympic lifts but hadn't concluded as easily one way or the other, does seem like some of them try to get down deaper with that more verticle back.

But like you say it does seem alot more comfortable setting up like you say, from my first few attempts at this other way. Anyway thanks alot for sharing your thoughts on this.

[armakuni]

Most rational people will admit they pull better this way. When are you going to clean?

Being rational is not always easy if you being surrounded with advices like look at ceiling when you squat and keep your torso as upright as possible when deadlifting etc. But just few weeks ago it was great to actually see when a guy did a heavy deadlift. He had as upright torso as possible but the bar didn't actually move until his hips had risen first to the position where they should be. So I'm really happy that I found your books. Its great do learn and understand things.

I am not sure what do you mean with clean but I assume that you are not meaning power clean. In case you mean then I thought about doing 5 sets of 3 reps one day and maybe a heavy single at intensity day. But I assume that you mean when you snatch it would be good to clean too. I admit that I am a pussy and I have not cleaned at all. I have always thought that the snatch is much cooler. But lately I have considered it much more and I will give it a try. Because why not? If I learn the movement I would add cleans to my program. Then my three day program would look something like this:


Volume day Light day Intensity day
Snatch 5x1 or 3x2 Snatch 3x1 Snatch Heavy single
Clean & Jerk 5x1 or 3x2 Clean 3x1 Clean & jerk Heavy single
Chin/Pull-up 4x5 Chin/Pull-up 3x3 Chin/Pull-up 1RM, 2RM or 3RM
Squat 4x5 Front squat 3x3 Squat 1RM, 2RM or 3RM
Press/Bench 4x5 Press/Bench 2x5 Press/Bench 1RM, 2RM or 3RM
Deadlift Heavy single or 1x5

Because of adding clean to program I would reduce a set from squat and presses instead of doing 5x5 in volume day. I would leave power cleans out of the program at first least when doing cleans. This is of course my idea of possible program and I would assume that there would be slight changes when starting to do the program. Would this program make sense if you want to be more useful in general?

[Mark Rippetoe]

This looks like a good program for a novice weightlifter. My program for general strength uses power cleans, but you have the right idea here.

[armakuni]

This looks like a good program for a novice weightlifter. My program for general strength uses power cleans, but you have the right idea here.
Sounds good because as a weightlifter I am a novice. Thank you very much for your answers.

[Antigen]

Volume day Light day Intensity day
Snatch 5x1 or 3x2 Snatch 3x1 Snatch Heavy single
Clean & Jerk 5x1 or 3x2 Clean 3x1 Clean & jerk Heavy single
Chin/Pull-up 4x5 Chin/Pull-up 3x3 Chin/Pull-up 1RM, 2RM or 3RM
Squat 4x5 Front squat 3x3 Squat 1RM, 2RM or 3RM
Press/Bench 4x5 Press/Bench 2x5 Press/Bench 1RM, 2RM or 3RM
Deadlift Heavy single or 1x5

Sorry if this question has already been asked, but is there any reason to do all your exercises at high volume in the same day of the training week?

That workout gets very long with 15-20 sets of weights heavy enough they need 4-6 minutes of rest.

I've always done volume squat and press/bench monday and attempt PR's on friday and then the reverse with my chin-ups and olympic lifts, with deadlifts on Wednesday.
But all the TM programs on this forum seem to do volume on every lift the same day, perhaps because you haven't given it the OK.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Skinning the cat = > 1 way.