5/3/1 Novice Question

[Paul Sousa]

Next month I will be training with a friend of mine who is very much a novice. He is 22yo/5'8"/145lbs and had very little barbell experience. I am planning on having him do Wendler's 5/3/1 since that is what I am currently doing, but I am thinking about increasing the percentages on many of the sets. For instance, on the first week of the cycle instead of 65/75/85% I am thinking about having him do 75/80/85%. I would do the same for the rest of the weeks in the cycle as well. I am also thinking about adding 10lbs. to the base number for bench and press for the next 4 week cycle, and 15 lbs. for the squat and DL (instead of the recommended 5 and 10 lb. increases). I am thinking since he is a complete novice that he could handle this increased workload for maybe four cycle?

Anyone with some experience with this program think it would work?

[coldfire]

Why would you put a novice on Wendler's 5/3/1?

[Paul Sousa]

Because the only way he'll train is with me, and I am doing 5/3/1 on a Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri schedule. I know it isn't the best program for a novice, but I am thinking if I make it more aggressive it would still have pretty good results. I would try to get him on SS, but then he would need to train on a different schedule and he doesn't want that. Like I said, he has basically no experience lifting and doesn't feel confident training on his own.

[coldfire]

I think that even if you split SS (like Justin did in CFWF program), so the schedule fits you, will be more effective for him.

[Paul Sousa]

So something like:

Mon - Squat/Press 5rx3s
Tue - Power Clean 3rx5s
Thu - Squat/Bench 5rx3s
Fri - Deadlift 5rx1s

I could definitely give that a go.

[Smiler Grogan]

+1 coldfire. I don't think ramping up an intermediate program for a rank novice is the best approach. He's ripe for fantastic gains just incrementally increasing sets across. Why make it more complicated or add volume? Go with what you know works.

Good on you for taking a newbie in, too.

[coldfire]

So something like:

Mon - Squat/Press 5rx3s
Tue - Power Clean 3rx5s
Thu - Squat/Bench 5rx3s
Fri - Deadlift 5rx1s

I could definitely give that a go.

I would go with

Mon - Squat/Press 5rx3s
Tue - Power Clean 3rx5s
Thu - Rest or metcon.
Fri - Squat/Bench 5rx3s, Deadlift 5rx1s

[Paul Sousa]

Thanks Smiler. 5/3/1 wouldn't be too bad complicated wise. I already have a template set up for him with his projected numbers. I am mainly concerned with finding the best fit for him with the same schedule I'm on. I'm definitely not an expert at programming so I appreciate any help.

And he is pumped to start training with me. He's a pretty athletic kid and I think he has great potential.

[Paul Sousa]

I would go with

Mon - Squat/Press 5rx3s
Tue - Power Clean 3rx5s
Thu - Rest or metcon.
Fri - Squat/Bench 5rx3s, Deadlift 5rx1s

That looks good, and I like the met-con. My one question would be whether the met-con may be better on Friday so he's more rested for squat/bench/DL day?

[coldfire]

I am not sure. Try it. I think that lifting heavy 3 days in a row is pretty hard. Or do you mean leaving the workout on Friday and adding the metcon afterwords?

[MAD9692]

Why would you throw in a metcom if the kid is a novice?
For a 4 day split that gets you out of the gym in less than an hour I think the following would work best on its own:

Mon: Squat/press
Tues: PC/chins

Thursday: Squat/Bench
Fri: Deads/Pullups

[Paul Sousa]

Wednesday would be a rest day, and Tuesday would just be Power Cleans (not that they aren't hard, but it would be low volume for a day). I'll try it out and see how it goes. If he feels like any one day is too hard I can reassess the order.

Thanks guys!

[Paul Sousa]

Why would you throw in a metcom if the kid is a novice?
For a 4 day split that gets you out of the gym in less than an hour I think the following would work best on its own:

Mon: Squat/press
Tues: PC/chins

Thursday: Squat/Bench
Fri: Deads/Pullups

Hmm, this one looks good too. I'll have to think about it a bit. Keep throwing out suggestions, the more thoughts and ideas the better!

[MAD9692]

I don't see why he would need any metcons if he is that light and doesnt have any prior training experience. Let's say you get him up to 180lbs he shouldnt see that much- if any body fat, he'll feel great that lifting "works" and that he got big and strong. Once he gets to a reasonable BW and he realizes that he's into lifting - then you can introduce a once/week metcon. This strategy will probably work best all around.
My 2 cents - good luck.

[scotts]

Wendler provides a three day version of 5/3/1. Do that and let your friend squat 3x a week.


.........MON..........WED...........FRI
Week 1...Press 3x5....Dead 3x5......Bench 3x5
Week 2...Squat 3x5....Press 3x3.....Dead 3x3
Week 3...Bench 3x3....Squat 3x3.....Press 5/3/1
Week 4...Dead 5/3/1...Bench 5/3/1...Squat 5/3/1
Deload...Press/Dead...Bench.........Squat

A better option is that instead of quitting SS to do 5/3/1 (I looked in your training log), you simply deload and start SS over with your friend. I'm guessing this isn't going to happen - but that doesn't mean it shouldn't. You have more linear progression in you and certainly shouldn't be doing what is essentially an advanced powerlifting routine.

[kittenSmash]

I'm with MAD on this one, a 145lb novice shouldn't do metcon. Your first 4 day split looked good if he doesn't want to do SS.

[Paul Sousa]

A better option is that instead of quitting SS to do 5/3/1 (I looked in your training log), you simply deload and start SS over with your friend. I'm guessing this isn't going to happen - but that doesn't mean it shouldn't. You have more linear progression in you and certainly shouldn't be doing what is essentially an advanced powerlifting routine.

Is 5/3/1 really only an advanced powerlifting program though? From what I've read it seems like Wendler came up with it after he stopped lifting competitively and wanted to become more well rounded of an athlete. He recommends doing a couple conditioning workouts each week on top of the program (I'd be playing sports instead). I know I could progress faster strength wise on SS, but my personal reason for doing 5/3/1 is because I realized I don't want to give up sports. I love competing too much. I honestly know that if I stayed with SS I couldn't play sports as well.

[MAD9692]

How does 5/3/1 work? Is it a 3 or 4 day plan?

[Paul Sousa]

It can actually be either. In the book Wendler gives a bunch of options on ways to implement it. The basics though are that it is a 4 week cycle based around sets of 5, 3 and 1 reps. You also calculate your percentages from 90% of your one rep max. Sounds complicated, but it really isn't I'll try to outline what I am doing.

Schedule: Monday/Press, Tuesday/Deadlift, Thursday/Bench, Friday/Squat (plus two accessory lifts each day)

Week 1: 5 reps at 65%, 5 reps at 75%, 5+ (max) reps at 85%

Week 2: 3 reps at 70%, 3 reps at 80% 3+ (max) reps at 90%

Week 3: 5 reps at 75%, 3 reps at 85%, 1+ (max) reps at 95%

Week 4 (deload): 5 reps at 40%, 5 reps at 50%, 5 reps at 60%

You then can start a new cycle, but you increase the base number for you calculations by 5 lbs. on bench a press and 10 lbs. on squat and DL.

Here's the article that got me to try it: http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength

[scotts]

Is 5/3/1 really only an advanced powerlifting program though? From what I've read it seems like Wendler came up with it after he stopped lifting competitively and wanted to become more well rounded of an athlete.
Well-rounded is relative. Wendler sqauted 1,000 pounds, lost a ton of weight, and then developed 5/3/1 to get his squat and pull over 600 and bench above 405. 5/3/1 has you squatting, benching, and pressing once a week, doing different rep schemes each week, incrementing 10 or 5 pounds every THREE weeks, and uses a built-in deload every fourth week. Surely you understand that all this stuff is designed around advanced lifters. Advanced lifters can lift weights heavy enough that it takes a week or more to recover; novices can't. Advanced lifters are so strong that they can hope to add 10 pounds to their squat in THREE weeks; novices can add 15 pounds to their squat in ONE week. Advanced lifters need programmed deloads; novices don't.


I know I could progress faster strength wise on SS, but my personal reason for doing 5/3/1 is because I realized I don't want to give up sports. I love competing too much. I honestly know that if I stayed with SS I couldn't play sports as well.
It's none of my business what you do or what your reasons are for doing it, so I'm not preaching here. But since you're posting here, asking advice on how to customizing an advanced program to a novice, then I'll tell you simply: putting a novice on 5/3/1 instead of a program designed for novices (like SS) is asinine, and doing it just because it is more convenient for you is kind of a shitty thing to do. Not trying to be a dick, but that's the plain truth.

[Paul Sousa]

It's none of my business what you do or what your reasons are for doing it, so I'm not preaching here. But since you're posting here, asking advice on how to customizing an advanced program to a novice, then I'll tell you simply: putting a novice on 5/3/1 instead of a program designed for novices (like SS) is asinine, and doing it just because it is more convenient for you is kind of a shitty thing to do. Not trying to be a dick, but that's the plain truth.

As opposed to him not even picking up a barbell? I'm not doing it because it's convenient for me, I'm doing it because it's what he's willing to do schedule wise. And if you've read the rest of this thread you'll see I am looking for the best possible programming for him within the constraints of my schedule. I have moved past modifying 5/3/1 for him. I asked if my idea made sense and it was a resounding no. The fact is he wants to train when I train. Are you saying I should just tell him to not even bother training since he can't do SS?

[Raskolnikov]

Am I missing something, or is there a reason your friend can't follow SS while you follow 5/3/1? Follow a M, W, F, S schedule, lift in a power rack, and you guys can workout together. At least that way your friend can still reap the benefits of higher frequency and linear progression. Because if he's a rank beginner, he's just waisting time on 5/3/1. Shoot, he'd be better off just squatting, benching, pulling, and pressing once a week with linear progression than he would be following 5/3/1. At least that way your friend can add 5-10lbs a week to all his lifts rather than 5-10lbs a month. 5/3/1 is designed for slow (very slow), steady progress...not exactly ideal for a beginner.

[hillbilly]

Wendler says in the FAQ section that he's used 5/3/1 with both begginers and advanced lifters with success. (of course I don't know how much of that success is due to the threat of teabagging.)

Possibbly a complete begginner could get away with missing the programmed deload in order to speed things up a bit?

[Raskolnikov]

It may work just fine, but it's simple math: The frequency and linear progression built in to SS will lead to faster progress for a beginner than is possible with 5/3/1 (assuming said beginner eats properly). Again, no one is saying 5/3/1 wont work, it just wont work nearly as well.

[hillbilly]

True. But is there any hurry?

[Raskolnikov]

None, I suppose. But why not pick the most efficient means possible? I just don't see the conflict. One program has you in the gym 3 - 4 times per week, the other 3 times per week -- what's stopping the OP and his friend from going to the gym on the same days? Worse case scenario, the OP will simply be going by himself once a week. They can even workout together using the exact same equipment (if that's for some reason necessary) if they don't mind the inconvenience of shifting equipment around (a barbell, bench, and rack are all either program necessitates). The two don't have to be following the same program to workout together.

[Paul Sousa]

The M/Tu/Tr/F schedule is due to sports. I'll be playing football on Saturdays and basketball on Sundays so I am following that in order to not train more than two days in a row. And I am not stuck on him having to do 5/3/1, it was just the thought I had. I am going to habe him do some form of linear progression based on the schedule I'm on as laid out earlier in the thread.

[Smiler Grogan]

My thinking is pretty much the same as Raskolnikov. Take him to the gym with you, whether that's 3 or 4 days a week, claim a power rack, you do your 5-3-1 and he does his linear progression. I don't think it has to be any harder than that. This is his one time to make awesome beginner gains, why not do that as efficiently and quickly as possible? Seems easy.

[StLRPh]

Next month I will be training with a friend of mine who is very much a novice. He is 22yo/5'8"/145lbs and had very little barbell experience. I am planning on having him do Wendler's 5/3/1 since that is what I am currently doing, but I am thinking about increasing the percentages on many of the sets. For instance, on the first week of the cycle instead of 65/75/85% I am thinking about having him do 75/80/85%. I would do the same for the rest of the weeks in the cycle as well. I am also thinking about adding 10lbs. to the base number for bench and press for the next 4 week cycle, and 15 lbs. for the squat and DL (instead of the recommended 5 and 10 lb. increases). I am thinking since he is a complete novice that he could handle this increased workload for maybe four cycle?

Anyone with some experience with this program think it would work?

I've done the program and had a similar question which I asked to Jim at EliteFTS. His response was to do the program as written.

I also asked if he thought it was a good program for beginners and he said abolutely.

For the monthly increases you can probably be a little more aggressive the first time or two. The weights will certainly catch up pretty quickly especially if he is just starting out and his maxes are probably not that high to begin with. 10lbs may not sound like much but it may be a significant % of his max.

It all boils down to what you think he'll enjoy and stick with. The program works, SS works, 5x5 works, WS4SB works, etc...

One thing that is really nice about 5/3/1 is that you can more easily see your progress in the form of consistently breaking your PRs and seeing your projected max improve on a normal basis.

Good luck

[Paul Sousa]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all the thoughts and opinions on it. I think I will go with this schedule for him (it was suggested earlier and I like it):

Mon - Squat/Press
Tues - PC/Chins
Thur - Squat/Bench
Fri - DL/Pull-ups

What should the starting increments be? I'm thinking 10 lbs. each time he squats, 5 lbs, each time he presses/benches, and 15 or 20 lbs. each time he DLs?

[MAD9692]

Training is supposed to be fun. Paul and everyone else in the forum understands that the basic SS program is the fastest most efficient way to gain strength/weight. But thats not what Paul was asking. He is asking for advice on what would work on a 4 day schedule so he could train with his buddy. Training is supposed to be fun and if that means splitting it out to 4 days..who gives a shit? I am currently using a TM template and I train by myself. However if I had one of my buddies that wanted to train 4 or 5 days a week I would change my TM schedule to accomodate the ability to train with someone else. Also I bet you both of us would advance further if we had each other pushing us to lift more.
Paul makes sure your buddy drinks GOMAD - your obligation is to make him gain 40lbs.

[Paul Sousa]

Paul makes sure your buddy drinks GOMAD - your obligation is to make him gain 40lbs.

That is both my and his goal for him. He wants to be 185 lbs. Luckily he loves whole milk and is willing to try GOMAD. I'm going to have him shoot for 4k cals/day to start, and as he progresses I'll increase as needed.

[Paul Stagg]

a) I will join the chorus and say 5/3/1 is not appropriate for a novice

b) I also agree that any training is better than no training.

c) I would not modify the 5/3/1 percentages, although they are a crapshoot given a novice isn't capable of generating a 1RM.

d) I would have a novice on 5/3/1 just do the prescribed reps, not go for broke on the last set. Perhaps once per cycle (maybe on the deload week) I would test RMs.

e) If the only way he'll train is with you 4 days a week, that's great... but why does he have to follow your program? Why does he have to train with you on every day... can't he skip one of the 4 days? If not, have him follow a more basic routine (like Rip's SS), and on day 4 have him do curls or some shit. I really think there is a better solution than what you are proposing.

[Paul Sousa]

Hey Paul, thanks for the input. Basically I am on a M/Tu/Tr/F schedule due to the sports I play. Given that, I don't think the standard SS program would work since he would have to train two days in a row (my understanding is that you need one rest day between workouts on SS to recover adequately).

And again, he DOES NOT have to follow my program. That was my initial thought process, but after all the feedback I am now planning on a 4 day linear progression program as I outlined. I will continue on 5/3/1 myself, and I will have him do the splits I listed most recently and add weight every workout. I will stick with the set/rep schemes from SS. It will look like this:

Monday - Squat 3 set/5 reps; Press 3 sets/5 reps
Tuesday - Power Cleans 5 sets/3 reps; Chins 3 sets/max reps
Thursday - Squat 3 sets/5reps; Bench 3 sets/5 reps
Friday - Deadlift 1 set/5 reps; Pull-ups 3 sets/max reps

[banthafodder]

That looks like it'll work nicely. It's a slower progression than SS itself, but that can't be helped. It looks somewhat similar to the Amateur programming for Crossfit Football, actually. If you haven't looked at that yet, it might be worth comparing notes.

[K.Diesel]

c) I would not modify the 5/3/1 percentages, although they are a crapshoot given a novice isn't capable of generating a 1RM.


Everyone is capable of generating a 1RM in any lift, including novices. It's just not a good idea for a few reasons to have a novice try to generate one.

Paul Sousa, you're to be commended for trying to help this guy along. I think the split that was suggested to you which you've settled on is fine and should do him well. Beginners will make plenty of gains doing almost anything, so I wouldn't worry too much. SS is probably the simplest, most efficient novice program out there, based on the reported results from those who have coached it/done it. But if your friend follows your split, lifts hard, eats much, makes gains in size and strength, and enjoys himself then what difference does it make what program he follows?

Since it seems like a SS vs. 5/3/1 debate has cropped up as a result of Mr. Sousa's very legit question, let me add this one, just for kicks. 5/3/1 hasn't been out for that long, and I know it has benefit for an experienced lifter. I do see how it could be applied to a novice lifter as prescribed in the book. However, I don't know that any novice subjects have ever done it for any period of time and had their results compared to those novices who have done SS. So how do the folks on the board who say that it's either inferior to SS for novices, or that it's totally inappropriate for novices know that to be fact?

NOTE: I'm not saying that 5/3/1 is better for novices. I'm asking what evidence is the basis of the claim that it's worse? And I realize that I'm on startingstrength.com, so understand that I mean no disrespect.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't think "worse" is the right word. Inappropriate, maybe. But it's definitely inefficient. Obviously, a program based on linear progression, which has someone adding weight to the bar from workout to workout, is going to lead to faster gains than a program like 5/3/1. I don't think that's up for debate -- it's simple mathematics. The question is whether an individual is capable of progressing from workout to workout. A novice, by definition, is capable of doing so and should take advantage of that fact by following a program like SS. A more advanced lifter who isn't capable of linear progression would do well to follow something like 5/3/1.

Edit: I should add, even though it doesn't really matter, that Wendler holds SS in very high regard. He wrote the review for the book over at Elitefts, has called it the one book all lifters should buy, and I've seen him personally tell beginners to use the program (on t-nation and elitefts). So, again, it's not about which is better in any absolute sense. It's about context. 5/3/1 can of course be used by beginners to great effect, but SS is designed with the novice in mind -- 5/3/1 is not.

[Cmanuel]

I don't think "worse" is the right word. Inappropriate, maybe. But it's definitely inefficient. Obviously, a program based on linear progression, which has someone adding weight to the bar from workout to workout, is going to lead to faster gains than a program like 5/3/1. I don't think that's up for debate -- it's simple mathematics. The question is whether an individual is capable of progressing from workout to workout. A novice, by definition, is capable of doing so and should take advantage of that fact by following a program like SS. A more advanced lifter who isn't capable of linear progression would do well to follow something like 5/3/1.

Edit: I should add, even though it doesn't really matter, that Wendler holds SS in very high regard. He wrote the review for the book over at Elitefts, has called it the one book all lifters should buy, and I've seen him personally tell beginners to use the program (on t-nation and elitefts). So, again, it's not about which is better in any absolute sense. It's about context. 5/3/1 can of course be used by beginners to great effect, but SS is designed with the novice in mind -- 5/3/1 is not.

Wow, I don't think it an be said any better than this.

[hatmanii]

I wouldn't call 5/3/1 an advanced powerlifting routine, more of a generalized strength program. It definitely doesn't hold enough volume for a novice (or anyone needing to learn the barbell lifts), however it would still work for you and your friend if your main goals are to increase strength and work capacity.

I ran the 5/3/1 for 3 cycles before I took a 2 month hiatus, and am currently on a SS/TM hybrid. I love the program, and would recommend it to anyone who wants to get into the gym to increase everything muscularly (strength, size, endurance, etc...).

The benefits of 5/3/1 are that the workouts are insanely quick, you should have enough left in the tank for whatever you plan to do outside of the gym (making it great for in season sports).

IMO - if you are set on running the 5/3/1 with your friend, I'd run your buddy through a week or two of form work, and then jump into 5/3/1 at 100% of your max, and skip the deload week until you guys start to stall really hard. If you aren't getting 5+ reps on the 3rd week, you need to reset by 10% and start adding in the deload week.

To be honest, you can't make a BAD decision. Whichever you decide, remember that working out is fun, and increasing your strength via 3 sets of 5 across, or setting a new rep max on a previous single/double will help motivate you guys.

Have fun, and good luck!

[K.Diesel]

I don't think "worse" is the right word. Inappropriate, maybe. But it's definitely inefficient. Obviously, a program based on linear progression, which has someone adding weight to the bar from workout to workout, is going to lead to faster gains than a program like 5/3/1. I don't think that's up for debate -- it's simple mathematics. The question is whether an individual is capable of progressing from workout to workout. A novice, by definition, is capable of doing so and should take advantage of that fact by following a program like SS. A more advanced lifter who isn't capable of linear progression would do well to follow something like 5/3/1.

Edit: I should add, even though it doesn't really matter, that Wendler holds SS in very high regard. He wrote the review for the book over at Elitefts, has called it the one book all lifters should buy, and I've seen him personally tell beginners to use the program (on t-nation and elitefts). So, again, it's not about which is better in any absolute sense. It's about context. 5/3/1 can of course be used by beginners to great effect, but SS is designed with the novice in mind -- 5/3/1 is not.


Wow, I don't think it an be said any better than this.

Agreed. Just the kind of response I was hoping for. Thank you.

[rhymer]

My vote is to have him do sets across. You might take a look at http://crossfitwichitafalls.com/Content/CFWF_Program.pdf. Note the location. Still maybe too much metcon, esp. if you guys are playing a sport.

[ZKP]

Paul

If he's just starting anything will work. If it's four days a week, then it's four days a week....Focus on his squatting especially, it's carry over will affect everything else, not so much vice versa. Lots of good ideas already on how to split the week, so pick one he likes and can get into. His enthusiasm will go a long way in the progress he'll make. Good luck.

[rhymer]

Agreed. Just thought the link might give him a vague sense of approval after all the prior...disapproval.