Deadlift PR

[Cmanuel]

Hit a strong pull earlier this week. Got 555 at 186 lbs (weighed collars after pull, they were 2.5 each).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kyd3n9zNzA

I think its pretty obvious where my sticking point is. Lockout assistance is going to be my friend for a few straight months.

I will be pulling 600+ in the 181 class at usapl raw nationals in July, and this is a great step towards that goal.

[Nauticus]

How did your back feel afterward (not sarcastic)?

[Cmanuel]

How did your back feel afterward (not sarcastic)?

Back felt just fine, a little sore but probably because I went for a squat PR during the same session.

My back rounds a good bit during PR attempts, I'm aware of this. Looking to correct this over the next few months and I think with curing it my lockout will also improve.

[Mr.City]

Were you sticking your chest out? Because it looks like you weren't. Or do you normally lift with a rounded upper back? I know that's how
Konstantinovs does it.

[Cmanuel]

Were you sticking your chest out? Because it looks like you weren't. Or do you normally lift with a rounded upper back? I know that's how
Konstantinovs does it.
Before I pull I try to get real tight and connected with the bar, keep my back tight and flat, and head and chest up. It breaks down somewhat for my PRs because its fucking heavy and my upper back is a bit weak (which I think is why I round and why my lockout sucks).

Like I said next few months I'm going to spend addressing upper back and lockout strength and that should help me out.

[blowdpanis]

Before I pull I try to get real tight and connected with the bar, keep my back tight and flat, and head and chest up. It breaks down somewhat for my PRs because its fucking heavy and my upper back is a bit weak (which I think is why I round and why my lockout sucks).

Like I said next few months I'm going to spend addressing upper back and lockout strength and that should help me out.

You are a very, very strong dude (that pull is insane at your bodyweight, or any bodyweight), but if you look at any of your deadlift videos, it's pretty obvious you don't "set" your back at all (say in the Rippetoe sense of the term of squeezing your chest up to put the spinal extensors into extension + taking the slack out of the bar before you begin your pull), you pretty much just rip it up.

As such, it's not really an "upper back," issue, it's your entire spine that starts and stays rounded throughout the pull. You can see this pretty clearly in the following video, freeze the video right before the bar even breaks the ground, your entire spine is flexed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zckJ-BpcBF8

I used to do the exact same thing (but was never nearly this strong), even in competition, so don't take this as criticism, just an observation.

[Cmanuel]

Thanks for all the comments but with all due respect this was never meant to be a critique my form video. I am aware its not 100% perfect form as outlined in starting strength, and I'm probably losing some pulling power because of that, but I'm going to attempt to correct this over the next few months. Remember my goal now is competition, form doesn't have to be 100% (this lift would have passed just fine), though form correction would probably help my pulling power (which is why I'm going to try and correct this).
I was just ecstatic that I finally hit a ~3X bodyweight deadlift and wanted to share.

[statesboroga_keith]

Good job!

[Gary Gibson]

Yeah, that spine is pretty flexed, but CManuel is one strong mofo.

Congrats on triple bodyweight. I saw you recently PR'd your SQ too.

[zepled37]

Great job. Stong lift!

[Paul Sousa]

Nice lift! What are you planning on to help your lockout? From reading 5/3/1 it seems Kroc rows could be a good addition based on Wendler's experience. He says after adding them it helped his upper back and grip strength a ton and improved his lockout. Also carried over to the bench. He only did two sets a week and saw huge improvements.

[Cmanuel]

First of all before I get to the quotes, I just wanted to say that I don't mean to come off as an ass. Trust me, I really really really respect all of you guys here for form critiques. Its just that I know its not the best form and I'm going to fix it, so no need to critique right now. In fact I will probably come back in a few months to you guys for help whenever I go for another PR (no more heavy 1RM on DL for a while).

On to individual quotes...

Yeah, that spine is pretty flexed, but CManuel is one strong mofo.

Congrats on triple bodyweight. I saw you recently PR'd your SQ too.

Thanks GG. Yeah squat is coming along as well though it moves at a bit slower pace vs. my DL for some reason. Thanks for the props though, going to work soon on that flexed spine!


Great job. Stong lift!

Thank you for the comment. It means a lot to me and keeps me motivated.


Nice lift! What are you planning on to help your lockout? From reading 5/3/1 it seems Kroc rows could be a good addition based on Wendler's experience. He says after adding them it helped his upper back and grip strength a ton and improved his lockout. Also carried over to the bench. He only did two sets a week and saw huge improvements.

For my lockout and form improvementI plan on:
- rereading SS (its been a while) and trying to really focus on improving form for increased strength, primarily trying to improve back roundings
- working heavy rack pulls for triples and heavy snatch grip bent shrugs (advice my record DLer "Skinny Man" Myers) to improve my lockout and upper back strength. These will make up my DL assistance work and I will rotate them every other week.
- swapping higher rep BW Chins out for sets of weighted chins
- Doing Kroc rows for two sets after my usual sets of DB rows

I think a good solid 2 months of this should help me fix my lockout woes.

[PMDL]

You ever do any deficit pulls? Those seem to be a magical cure-all for many a deadlift problem, lockout included.

[Cmanuel]

You ever do any deficit pulls? Those seem to be a magical cure-all for many a deadlift problem, lockout included.

I used a 6" box to pull 8-10 singles of varying weight after most of my deadlift workouts for the last 4 months or so.... I think thats what caused my pull off the floor to be so strong!!

So I think I will be putting those on the shelf for the time being.

[PMDL]

Six inches? Shoot I was thinking more like 2-3". Much more than that seems to throw the pull off, IME. The advantage of pulling off a platform as far as locking out is the longer pull. But hell, you've been doing them so maybe it is time to switch.

Another good option of that nature is rack pulls like you mentioned, but do them off a low pin. Anything at or above knee height is good for getting the feel of a weight in your hands, but otherwise it's never done anything for my actual strength. It ends up being more of a show-off exercise as opposed to a strength-builder.

Pulling off low pins or boxes so that the plates are only 2-4" off the floor, that seems to do nice things.

Kroc rows are good, so are barbell rows. Some will tell you that strict is best, but screw that - sloppy and heavy back work is the best for building the grip and the upper back strength. Sloppy doesn't mean going off like that fagets that stand so upright it might as well be a shrug, but you can use some hip-english to heave the weight around a little.

I've been developing a new taste for GMs lately. Not the heavy stuff, but lighter weight and higher volume stuff.

[Cmanuel]

Six inches? Shoot I was thinking more like 2-3". Much more than that seems to throw the pull off, IME. The advantage of pulling off a platform as far as locking out is the longer pull. But hell, you've been doing them so maybe it is time to switch.

Another good option of that nature is rack pulls like you mentioned, but do them off a low pin. Anything at or above knee height is good for getting the feel of a weight in your hands, but otherwise it's never done anything for my actual strength. It ends up being more of a show-off exercise as opposed to a strength-builder.

Pulling off low pins or boxes so that the plates are only 2-4" off the floor, that seems to do nice things.

Kroc rows are good, so are barbell rows. Some will tell you that strict is best, but screw that - sloppy and heavy back work is the best for building the grip and the upper back strength. Sloppy doesn't mean going off like that fagets that stand so upright it might as well be a shrug, but you can use some hip-english to heave the weight around a little.

I've been developing a new taste for GMs lately. Not the heavy stuff, but lighter weight and higher volume stuff.

Good input here. Might try to throw in some barbell rows in there as well.

And kudos to the GMs. I use them after Squat or DL workout (Depends on how i feel) for 4-5 strict sets of 10 reps. Volume has always helped me more on GMs vs. brute strength.

Good stuff here though, do you compete?

[PMDL]

I do when I can, though it's never serious because I always end up with one or two lifts sidelined by injuries.

It's something I do more for enjoyment than because I'm good at it.

[El Viejo]

Another good option of that nature is rack pulls like you mentioned, but do them off a low pin. Anything at or above knee height is good for getting the feel of a weight in your hands, but otherwise it's never done anything for my actual strength. It ends up being more of a show-off exercise as opposed to a strength-builder.

That's interesting. As someone who is trying to increase his DL, I figured that rack-pulls would be the best thing (the lowest I can place the pins is just above knee height). However, you're saying that deficit DL's is a better way to improve DL strength. Is that correct?

[PMDL]

I've found that deficits seem to be a money lift for me at the moment. Whether that will continue to hold true with time and gains I don't know.

Rack pulls have only ever been effective from below the knee, where the plates are only around 2-4" off the ground. Anything above that, while you can move some very impressive weights, just hasn't ever done the trick as far as improving anything.

I could see the rationale if you wanted to add them in just to handle something really heavy, but only in conjunction with something else - maybe GMs or RDLs or whatever else. By themselves those "lockout rack pulls" just don't have enough ROM to do very much, from my experience.

[El Viejo]

Regarding Cmanuel's form - I was just listening to a podcast on iron radio where powerlifter Phil Stevens made the comment that PR's are NEVER pretty.

That was an impressive lift, Cman. I'm curious as to what kind of set/rep/frequency/% of 1RM scheme you are currently following.

[Gary Gibson]

Regarding Cmanuel's form - I was just listening to a podcast on iron radio where powerlifter Phil Stevens made the comment that PR's are NEVER pretty.

I forget who said this, but: "If it was pretty, then it wasn't your max."

El Viejo, my experience concurs with what PMDL stated. Rack pulls only have an effect if you pull from your sticking point. A really high rack pull is like a really high quarter squat or a really shallow leg press; not saying these things don't do some good (thickening connective tissue and promoting bone density maybe), but they won't carry over to full range.

[khal]

I forget who said this, but: "If it was pretty, then it wasn't your max."

El Viejo, my experience concurs with what PMDL stated. Rack pulls only have an effect if you pull from your sticking point. A really high rack pull is like a really high quarter squat or a really shallow leg press; not saying these things don't do some good (thickening connective tissue and promoting bone density maybe), but they won't carry over to full range.

I think the problem here is that the weight isn't pulling him out of position, but that he starts off in a poor position implying underlying technique issues even at lighter weights.

That being said, OP seems to think he knows how to remedy his situation and did not ask for feedback. Also, I only deadlift 160Kg for 5 reps so I'm in no position to criticise.

[Gary Gibson]

That being said, OP seems to think he knows how to remedy his situation and did not ask for feedback.

(For the record, I didn't offer any fixes.) I know maxes can look ugly--which is why I used that quote--but the nature of the internet invites criticism--usually well meaning--when things aren't pretty.

But that's life. Two things that contest can be true. In fact, that's usually the case which is why human life is so filled with conflict.

Does Cmanuel's back initial back position deserve criticism? Yup.

Is Cmanuel an absurdly dedicated, strong guy who should be very proud of a legal-if-not-ideal triple bodyweight deadlift? Yup.

[PMDL]

This fella starts off with a bad position too. If only he had good form he could be strong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh-ikyBAQr8

[BWenson]

Congrats man!!!

[milesdyson]

konstantinovs keeps pretty good lumbar extension during his lift.

[Gary Gibson]

konstantinovs keeps pretty good lumbar extension during his lift.

Yup. It's his thoracic region that's flexed. This is safe for him because he has a monstrously strong rectus abdominis generating lots of internal abdominal pressure and keeping his lumbar nice and neutral and allowing his thoracic spine to flex safely and thus reducing the distance the bar has to travel. Most lifters let their entire spine flex in an attempt to reduce the distance to lockout when the lift gets really tough. (This is part of the reason I prefer sumo in competition; it shortens the lever arm the torso forms with the hips as the fulcrum; less torque to worry about pulling the lumbar out of extension for max pulls.)

[Cmanuel]

This fella starts off with a bad position too. If only he had good form he could be strong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh-ikyBAQr8

KK has often said he could not pass the 770 or so mark with strict form... once he started using the current form...well, you see the resuts.

Gary summed it up well with his quote. Thats how I feel about 1 rep maxes. It doesnt have to be pretty, as long as it would pass on the platform thats all i give a shit about.