Do I have Hip Drive?

[Dastardly]

Hello there,

Ive been lifting for a year and learned to squat using Rip's methodology. I watched all the 'hip drive' videos on youtube and tried my best to do the same. After I overcame flexibilty hurdles in the beginning I have since been fairly confident that my form was solid.

However my squat has been stalled now for a while, a major deload to about 70% has not helped. My struggle to push through wall combined with re-reading some Rippetoe material emphasising hip drive has made me start doubting my form.

When I see videos of hip drive demonstration, the lifters hips clearly pivot upwards as they come out of the hole. The hip drive seems to be related to a conscious pivotting of the hips. From what I can make out, this is supposed to pull at the hamstring on the hip end creating more overall tension. So you have the cumalative forces of the hip pulling away/upwards and the hamstring contracting to pull opposing this.

The problem is I cannot get my hips to do this. No matter how hard I try to drive & lead with hips they do not pivot backwards/upwards. What happens is that my legs straighten first pushing my whole torso & hips together backwards.

I just wanted to know if my form and efforts to maintain lower back tightness seem sufficient? I am trying as hard as possible even when warming up with empty bar or doing air squats. But it can never get the hip pivot/strongly arched lower back.

Empty Bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh0BCaj2qeo

60kg Warm Up Set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NOxEQr0j4M

87kg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqbWhRx3hnE

90kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY8FwPqnHBg

90kg Back View (not a good position I realise)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0Wj3m2C9Qo

[Mike O.]

Dastardly,

I think your low back is set fine. It looks like the backward motion of your hips at the top is what is causing you to miss the hamstring stretch at the bottom, because your knees are moving forward slightly throughout the entire descent. Try coming straight down from the top, breaking hips and knees at the same time, then push your hips back after the knees are set forward just past the toes. That should fix it.

Mike

[Hollis]

Your warmup sets are too fast. You have a weird hip pop at the top of the bar reps. There's no way you can be getting the Valsalva and tight midsection at the top of those reps. Your warmup should look like your work sets in all areas, otherwise the tightness required for you're work weight is a surprise every time.

Your feet look like they could be angled out a bit more.

Depth and back looks good.

The second rep of 87k, I see chest lift out of the bottom instead of following through on the hip drive. Same on back video. You seem to be giving up on the hip drive and lifting your chest out of the bottom for the rest of the vids.

It looks like the bar position could be lower on the back. For me, correcting bar placement, making back more horizontal, improved hip drive.

[Nauticus]

Edit: Nevermind. False diagnosis - I watched it a few more times and I don't really see what I was originally talking about

[gman]

I looked at the 90kg work set (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY8FwPqnHBg and think part of the problem is that you are not keeping your chest up during the ascent. If you look at your upper back, it looks like it is rounding as you drive up, which will kill your hip drive. If you look at your hips and chest at as you come out of the bottom, especially in the 3rd rep, you can see that your hips rise faster than your chest.

Keep your chest up, back and midsection tight as you come up out of the hole.

[Dastardly]

I looked at the 90kg work set (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY8FwPqnHBg and think part of the problem is that you are not keeping your chest up during the ascent. If you look at your upper back, it looks like it is rounding as you drive up, which will kill your hip drive. If you look at your hips and chest at as you come out of the bottom, especially in the 3rd rep, you can see that your hips rise faster than your chest.

Keep your chest up, back and midsection tight as you come up out of the hole.

But thats basically my problem, the harder to try to create hip drive, all I manage is to get hips to rise a bit faster than chest by legs straightening out while my torso is still leaning forward.

[Dastardly]

Your warmup sets are too fast. You have a weird hip pop at the top of the bar reps. There's no way you can be getting the Valsalva and tight midsection at the top of those reps. Your warmup should look like your work sets in all areas, otherwise the tightness required for you're work weight is a surprise every time.

Your feet look like they could be angled out a bit more.

Depth and back looks good.


The hip pop at the top is just me trying to finish the squat as by contracting glutes and standing tall as possible. Reading stuff by Eric Cressey/Mike Robertson it seems that this is quite strongly recommended to maximise the activation & functional role of the glutes. It looks a bit kooky unweighted I realise!

I start my warm up with slow controlled bodyweight squats with exaggerated knee width to stretch groin/adductors. When I move to empty bar, I do them fast to get some blood pumping/raise temp and to get some bounce/dynamic stretch going.

My feet are both pretty wide and angled out, I used to often think it was excessively so as Ive never seen anyone else put them this wide! I think my foot position is spot on though as I tend to angle out as much as possible where I can still get knees tracking over feet.

Ill try and get a video the next time im at the gym to get your opinion. But there is limited things to balance my phone on!

[confuzzl3don3]

But thats basically my problem, the harder to try to create hip drive, all I manage is to get hips to rise a bit faster than chest by legs straightening out while my torso is still leaning forward.

The thing is hip drive involves pushing up from the hips however a back angle still needs ot be maintained. Rip said that a slight change in back angle with hips rising faster than the chest is fine, but too much is bad and leads to a good morning. Maybe you could do with the chest up cue or the one i like using which i picked up from Gary and someone else (pardon my memory) about pushing the traps up into the bar to maintain the back angle. Just my thoughts

[Dastardly]

Dastardly,

I think your low back is set fine. It looks like the backward motion of your hips at the top is what is causing you to miss the hamstring stretch at the bottom, because your knees are moving forward slightly throughout the entire descent. Try coming straight down from the top, breaking hips and knees at the same time, then push your hips back after the knees are set forward just past the toes. That should fix it.

Mike

I really really really hope this is true. It would be amazing to have such a simple form fix after struggling for months.

Ive got into the habit of 'sitting back' right from the beginning of learning as it seemed to be so strongly emphasised for low bar squats. The idea is so imprinted in me that ive never been able to bring myself to go straight down. Even though I remember this being mentioned to me before.

Mobility drills ive been doing recently like floor squat stretches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbO6klMhYf0) (check 7.30) and wall squats also emphasise the vertical shin/maximum sit-back form. So it just seems like such a bizzarre idea to go straight down. I am struggling to imagine how it will feel!

I am definetely going to try next time, but im sure its going to be extremely challenging initiating this new alien motion.

[Dastardly]

The thing is hip drive involves pushing up from the hips however a back angle still needs ot be maintained. Rip said that a slight change in back angle with hips rising faster than the chest is fine, but too much is bad and leads to a good morning. Maybe you could do with the chest up cue or the one i like using which i picked up from Gary and someone else (pardon my memory) about pushing the traps up into the bar to maintain the back angle. Just my thoughts

I can maintain back angle just fine. The examples where you see hips rising first is where I am consciously doing it in an attempt to create some visible hip drive. I basically find it impossible to get low back tight enough to pull hips upwards/away from hamstrings. At best I can keep it in a kind of neutral position.

[Dastardly]

By the way,

I feel accessory exercises like roman chair hyper extensions may help me with the ability to contract low back into a tight strong arch.

But I do not have access to a roman chair or any kind of bench which would hold my feet in place.

If anyone can think of some useful accessory exercises that do not require special equipment feel free to share!

I think good mornings have too much hamstring emphasis though as I am squatting very frequently and already struggling to recover sufficiently.

[Mike O.]

The block of wood exercise shown in SS helped ingrain the knees-forward-early technique for me. I did it at home with bodyweight squats. I thought I had the knee position right until I actually tried this exercise. Very useful. If you don't have a block of wood handy then use a door that is slightly ajar instead of the block of wood.

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

The bar looks awfully high in the last video. Are you doing a high bar squat or low bar squat?

I think you should lower the bar and see if it makes a difference.

[nisora33]

The hip pop at the top is just me trying to finish the squat as by contracting glutes and standing tall as possible. Reading stuff by Eric Cressey/Mike Robertson it seems that this is quite strongly recommended to maximise the activation & functional role of the glutes. It looks a bit kooky unweighted I realise!


All due respect to Cressey/Robertson, first off. However, I'm gonna say something I said a while ago in relation to another technique that has the potential to be injurious.

Let's assume that the cute little pelvic "tuck" at the top of the squat does improve your squat ability somehow (I'm not convinced that it does). One way that I could imagine that it might is rather like the case of follow-through on a golfer's swing. Same as a karate punch, where we're taught not to aim for the surface target but a target through the body and out the other side: it ensures that you don't "switch off the juice" too early and maximum power is generated and force imparted to the target. I could see the idea being here that if you "follow through" with your hips, then this ensures that you do not cut shy the glute contribution.

Okay, fine. Some powerlifters utilize a toes forward squat stance when standing with their feet wide (femurs externally rotated). This allows them to wind the ligaments about the knee tight, and aids in their "bounce" out of the hole. And it works, a lot of powerlifters use it and will attest to the efficacy of it. But you have to weigh the potential harm of said technique against any benefit it might provide. Competitive powerlifters a priori accept that they will get harmed at some point by what they do, and keep going. In a sport where the goal is to lift the most weight, you're not especially concerned with the long-term consequences of your in-competition practices. You and I are not them. We want to get generally strong in the safest, most mechanicaly sound way possible (at least I believe we should).

Now back to the pelvic "tuck." That little tuck puts the lower-most lumbars in flexion. When the spine is in flexion, the intervertabral discs are being squeezed from the anterior side. This is one way that discs get herniated. Not only are you doing this, you're now doing it with a tremendous load on your back, further increasing compressive forces. I hope you can see why this might be a bad idea.

Might the pelvic tuck accomplish something that no pelvic tuck will? Maybe, I don't know, I don't use it. Is it worth the potential injury? Okay, you decide.

May I suggest that there is a better way to ensure you get the weight up with proper veracity and follow-through? Something I do, and teach others to do, is to ascend from the bottom as if you're trying to "rattle" the weights at the top. Some of us use iron plates, so you can literally make them rattle. Everyone else will just have to imagine that they're rattling the weights (you can do this with your bench and press). All this without putting your back in an unsafe position.

-Stacey

[nisora33]

Empty Bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh0BCaj2qeo

60kg Warm Up Set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NOxEQr0j4M

87kg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqbWhRx3hnE

90kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY8FwPqnHBg

90kg Back View (not a good position I realise)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0Wj3m2C9Qo

Christ Almighty why in hell are you doing ten reps during your warm-up sets?

[Dastardly]

I have always tried to focus on a strong glute contraction to make finish the lift. If I focus on this ive found it makes a strong lockout at hips and knees.

When focusing on making the weight rattle I can imagine it being rather leg dominant and the super fast quad orientated lockout being rather harsh on the knees.

I kind of made it a mainstay of my form after seeing this video of Mark coaching someones squat. The trainee pushes forward their hips much more than I do.

It looks very exaggerated on my empty bar squat anyway, when weighted it is of course not possible to stand all the way vertical. I do stay concious of not rounding at the lumbar spine. The contracted glutes rather makes a strong position similar to contracting glutes during an overhead press. It is even sometimes sufficient to make the weight rattle as you suggest.

[nisora33]

When focusing on making the weight rattle I can imaging it being rather leg dominant and the super fast quad orientated lockout being rather harsh on the knees.

Now, explain exactly how that would make the movement a "quad-orientated lockout?



I do stay concious of not rounding at the lumbar spine.

You cannot "hip tuck" like that without, at the very least, flexing at the level of the L5, S1 vertabrae. Look at the videos yourself and imagine this.


I kind of made it a mainstay of my form after seeing this video of Mark coaching someones squat. The trainee pushes forward their hips much more than I do.

Rip has spoken very strongly against that sort of hip tuck. And although I don't have my copy next to me, I'm sure he does so in Starting Strength--if not, you'll find it mentioned somwhere on this board if you use the search function. Just because you see him letting someone get away with this in a video, does not mean it wasn't addressed later. When you're coaching someone, it is difficult and inadvisable to address every little form problem at once.

[Dastardly]

Sorry,

I forgot to add the video with the example;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OoVQPmfZ4o

[Dastardly]

Now, explain exactly how that would make the movement a "quad-orientated lockout?


Its just the what I 'imagine' would occur if I focused strongly on getting the bar to rattle. I can imagine a super harsh lockout at the knee. But I dont know if this is true as I havent tried it with that specific focus.

Ive taken your criticisms on board and will be extra careful not to overdo the hip lockout. Its just that the way I always understood it was that if you contract glutes hard it makes your spine very stable. It is often a cue given to people overhead pressing to stop their lower back bending.

I dont want this little detail to distract from the main issue however. What I feel about the lack of obvious hip drive with clearly pivoting hips that I see other lifters do. I simply cannot get my low back into that kind of super tight arch with hips tilted upwards and feel it may be preventing me from getting hip drive.

So any advice on the main issue would be appreciated.

I havent squatted since making the post due to christmas closure of gym. But I did buy some lifting shoes which Ive been waiting to do for months. hopefully they will help me get a better position in the hole.

[Dastardly]

Christ Almighty why in hell are you doing ten reps during your warm-up sets?

Ive been stuck on similar working weight for a while so have experimented with warm-up numbers.

My Current working weight is 90kg, I want to get it to 5 reps but can still only manage 3.

I have found 15 reps on empty bar, then 10 on 60kg to be a good fast warmup before going to 90kg.

What would you suggest as a warm up?

Im about to deload again anyhow because ive failed to hit 5reps of 90kg. And am also going to start using lifting shoes.

[Gary Gibson]

Its just that the way I always understood it was that if you contract glutes hard it makes your spine very stable. It is often a cue given to people overhead pressing to stop their lower back bending.

That cue is helpful when the forces at work put you in danger of leaning BACK, which is what happens in a heavy press. It's not so useful in a squat.

[bugbomb]

That cue is helpful when the forces at work put you in danger of leaning BACK, which is what happens in a heavy press. It's not so useful in a squat.

Yeah, contracting your glutes should NEVER come at the expense of lumbar extension.

[Raskolnikov]

What would you suggest as a warm up?



Definitely not what you've been doing.

I would do something like
bar x 2s x 5r
95lb x 5
135lb x 3
155lb x 2
175lb x 1
195lb x 3 x 5

[Dastardly]

Hello again everybody.

I have had an unwilling break from lifting due to christmas/new year closure at municipal gym.

Last session was on 21st December, I am hoping to get to gym tomorrow (if hangover is gone) 2nd January.

During this time I have been doing bodyweight squats to maintain flexibility and work on my hip drive. I filmed myself doing some when I thought I had depth & hip drive dialled but had a horrible surprise.

I cannot get anywhere near parallel without my back rounding. I fail to get a strong back arch even at the beginning of the descent. My back starts of kind of flat, but by the time I am parallel what little bit of arch I had is gone. I can perhaps get 2/3rd's of target depth with a sufficiently tight lower back.

I experimented with a lot of stance widths & feet positions. But none helped.

One of the first comments in the thread about moving knees forward at the beginning got me thinking so I read the whole squat section in SS and came across a few points Id like to ask about too.

Questions:

Mark says that if weight stays on heels then knees cannot travel too far forward.

Is this reliable? I want to implement the knees forward at the beginning method but need a simple way to make sure im not killing hamstring tension.

Mark mentions that for trainees lacking flexibility

"It is far better to approach full squat depth a little at a time each workout"

Should I reduce my squat depth to ensure a tighter lower back? - I have been squatting for about a year, very focused & consistent for past 8 months. I have done vigorous post workout static stretches focusing especially on hamstrings for the past 12 months but have not noticed any flexibility increases during the past 6 months.

Mark also mentions that placing a block of wood under the heels to improve depth is bad as it prevents stretching the muscles and it is better to improve squat depth slowly as stated above.

I just got some olympic lifting shoes and the heels are as high as a plank of wood. I was looking forward to using them, but would it be better to stick to flat shoes and just squat as deep as I can maintaining back tightness?

Doing bodyweight squats for the past few days focusing extra hard on back tightness and hip drive have been as exhausting as my work sets of barbell squats! at 90kg. (my BW is 70kg)

I have been stalled at this weight for a long while and was thinking of deloading to tweak form & get used to olympic shoes.

How much should I deload to?

My last two deloads were from 82.5kg 3x5 (I wanted to achieve 5x5) down to 70kg. I worked up to 77.5kg but decided I needed to increase depth. So I made a big deload to 60kg. And tried to work back up to the 80kg+ ballpark using 5x5.

But once I got to 82.5kg again I was very dissapointed to find myself stuck at 3x5. So I accepted and tried to continue with 3x5 with poor results. I made poor progress over the past 2-3months and reps have fallen & fallen as I tried to force myself to my end of year goal of 1.5xBW squat (105kg). I got nowhere near! My last session being 90kg 3x3.

[JayvH]

I just got some olympic lifting shoes and the heels are as high as a plank of wood. I was looking forward to using them, but would it be better to stick to flat shoes and just squat as deep as I can maintaining back tightness?

I also don't get why a plank of wood is not recommended but weightlifting shoes are. Rippetoe says it's better to use them.

I also have the problem, that I don't find the hip drive at the moment. I just can't feel the tension on the hamstrings when I come to the bottom of the squat. My current weight for the worksets is 67,5kg after I failed to break 70kg. I've read somewhere else that you only get the feeling of the tensed hamstrings at higher weights. I hope so or I will have to make some videos too.

[nisora33]

I cannot get anywhere near parallel without my back rounding. I fail to get a strong back arch even at the beginning of the descent. My back starts of kind of flat, but by the time I am parallel what little bit of arch I had is gone.
I experimented with a lot of stance widths & feet positions. But none helped...



Mark says that if weight stays on heels then knees cannot travel too far forward....


Dastardly, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you've actually read SS, but you make some comments here that I can't imagine anyone making who has actually read (or read well) the book.

First off, one of the 1st comments Rip makes in the squat section is that a person's unweighted squat often demonstrates a lack of rigid lumbar extension and that the application of a little weight held on the back resolves the issue, as it gives the back musculature something to contract against. Your unweighted squat WILL NOT look like your weighted squat, and trying to judge your squat form this way will not give you an accurate look at your WEIGHTED squat technique, particularly lumbar extension. You have somehow missed this in your reading and you have also failed to use the search function, as I'm pretty sure Rip has addressed this at least a few times.

Second, you do not, I repeat, DO NOT want to keep your weight on your heels during a correctly perfermed SS-model squat. This point is so fundamental that I can't imagine that you've read the book. Your weight should be evenly distributed across the bottom of the foot, NOT focused primarily on the heel.

Reread, harder.

-S.

[Dastardly]

I just re-read the bit that talked about heels down/toes up and realised I missed a bit. It is recommended as a temporary technique to learn to avoid letting knees come too far forward, not a permanent method.

Well especially as this is the case, can anyone recommend a simple/foolproof technique to prevent knee going too far over toes?

I suffer from the problem mentioned on page 45 of SS. About knees moving forward at the bottom of descent. So I am planning to try going straight down instead of sitting back so much. I am worried about knees going too far forwards, especially if I use my new lifting shoes which have a pretty high heel.

[misspelledgeoff]

use the Terribly Useful Block of Wood.


I just re-read the bit that talked about heels down/toes up and realised I missed a bit. It is recommended as a temporary technique to learn to avoid letting knees come too far forward, not a permanent method.

Well especially as this is the case, can anyone recommend a simple/foolproof technique to prevent knee going too far over toes?

I suffer from the problem mentioned on page 45 of SS. About knees moving forward at the bottom of descent. So I am planning to try going straight down instead of sitting back so much. I am worried about knees going too far forwards, especially if I use my new lifting shoes which have a pretty high heel.

[nisora33]

I just re-read the bit that talked about heels down/toes up and realised I missed a bit. It is recommended as a temporary technique to learn to avoid letting knees come too far forward, not a permanent method.

Well especially as this is the case, can anyone recommend a simple/foolproof technique to prevent knee going too far over toes?

I suffer from the problem mentioned on page 45 of SS. About knees moving forward at the bottom of descent. So I am planning to try going straight down instead of sitting back so much. I am worried about knees going too far forwards, especially if I use my new lifting shoes which have a pretty high heel.


Knees OUT. It's helpful to exaggerate the cue: think "split the crotch of my pants" when you shove those knees out. Your knees can't be darting forward at the bottom of the squat if the distance they would travel forward, allowing the hamstrings to go slack, is being taken up laterally by the knees being shoved OUT. If you do this right, you should feel as tight in your inner thighs as you do in your hamstrings, IMO.

This, and use the TUBOW approach.

-S.

[drecar]

S

Should knees out be done as hard as possible during the descent to prevent knees sliding forward at the bottom? Will this provide for the better bounce?

[nisora33]

S

Should knees out be done as hard as possible during the descent to prevent knees sliding forward at the bottom? Will this provide for the better bounce?

Yes, as hard as possible IF you're already having trouble keeping the knees out. Otherwise, just make an honest effort to spread 'em as you start to go down. REALLY push 'em out like hell right near the bottom if you're having trouble with the knees drifting forward down there (don't know if this is you). The hamstrings and the adductors are both hip extensors, so pushing the knees out will improve your bounce, yes. When the knees travel out, this increases the distance between the adductors' origin and insertion points, just as sitting back and leaning forward does for the hamstrings.

Myself, I like to think of my knees traveling forward AND out during that 1st one-third of the movement on the way down. Hey, whatever does the trick.

-S.

[Dastardly]

Hi, just wanted to provide you all with an update.

Im finally back training after gym closure, illness and crazy weather. The lack of lifting was driving me insane.

Anyhow, I have tried implementing the basic cues suggested here and have had what feels like great success.

It seems really obvous now how I was over-doing the sit back. I cant believe I squatted like that for a whole year!

I practiced going straight down letting knees move as forward as they need right as the beginning. and relying on pushing knees out & keeping back tight to get stretch reflex. It really worked.

I have also realised that my anthropometrics require me to have an unusually wide stance for my hips to function smoothly and to get adductors working. I used to try and fight this, making my stance narrower even though it felt wrong, but I have realised because of my wide hips it needs to be this way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TYMNDpCS_Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QYxk0OlbKs

I am also following Marks flexibility/depth advice, and no longer forcing depth at the expense of losing tightness, hopefully I will eventually get below parallel.

[milesdyson]

Looks like you fast forwarded the videos in the first post. Knees are still breaking after the hips and coming forward for the majority of the descent.

[Dastardly]

Obviously refinement shall come with time. But I am pretty sure knees and hips are breaking simultaneously now. It both looks & feels that way to me.

I was actually conciously thinking about pushing knees forward & out during the descent trying to get them to final position before getting to the bottom. There is no forward glide in 'the hole' from what I see, which I used to do before.

[milesdyson]

I wanted to add a pause to this video to stop it when the shins finally stop moving forward, but youtube is being stupid. It did allow me to add a box to highlight a part of the video. Watch your shin movement. It finally comes to a stop when you're almost at your deepest point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDBJ1gxFbLQ

[milesdyson]

Actually the box might not even show up. Just look at your shin vs. the bottom of the rack behind you.

[tennisgod]

I stumbled on this video last night... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDQT_zbJ5Yg. To me, this guy is doing the right things and I would like a similar technique (without the muscle tear, of course!). Do you guys agree his form is good?

[Dastardly]

thanks miles, but I dont really see how that is supposed to be a problem.

The knee/shin is coming forward smoothly at the same rate of descent. Before I was sitting back with shins more vertical till I reached the maxmimum depth possible with vertical shins, at which point my shins would glide forwards.

I thought knees moving forward in balance with hips moving back was the right way to go?

Look at this video of justin, the form looks perfect to me and is what I feel I am much closer to than I was before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYeDpZfzEUY

And tennisgod; matt kroc is doing the thin that I used to in that video. He basically gets to a half squat with vertical shins and then his knees glide forward abruptly at the bottom. A lot of powerlifters seem to squat with an agressive 'sit back' I think it has something to do with using squat suits/maximising hamstrings.

[nisora33]

Dastardly, I know you're trying very hard, and you're always bursting with curiosity and enthusiasm in your posts, but sometimes you have a tough time taking criticism.

I'll grant you that you're shins aren't as vertical as they once were--good job; however, the rest of your squat technique still needs much more polish.

To illustrate, I went and dug up an old squat video of mine. Now, I acknowledge that I'm not "God's gift to squatting," and in fact, I don't consider myself a very good lifter by any stretch of the imagination. But this particular video represents a pretty good snapshot in time of what I think you should be striving for. Pay particular note to reps 2-4. My knees arrive at their final destination before the halfway point. Notice how tight everything is--look at the spinal extension from my thoracic spine to my lumbar spine--and look at the tightness of my bottom position:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vpsh-65thw

Really, I think we're all being fair to you in our assessments of your form. Take it to heart.

-Stacey

[Dastardly]

Thanks for your comments stacey.

So do you think I should try to restrict how much I let knees travel forward? and then try to hold that knee position all the way to the bottom?

I feel this would probably put me into a similar situation as before, where depth is limited by shin angle as well as it being more awkward to do.

I will experiement with it as youve suggested it so strongly, I am of course always working to improve form and put my videos and queries here for your very critiscism.

Ive been struggling with the hip drive thing for ages mostly on the account of the fact that my back just refuses to tightly arch.

In this recent squat session I posted I feel my form is better than it ever has been and that my back never rounded all the way to the bottom. This new form felt really great to me, I felt a boost of hip drive coming up. But I will of course continue to put effort into improving it.

I do however feel that you and me are built somewhat differently. I just watched this other video of you squatting. You manage to get so deep with shins so vertical. If I tried that I would get nowhere near that depth and probably fall backwards too. So our squats will look a bit different in any case. I think my squat has more potential to look like justins which is surely correct?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8YskMGTOmI

Its remarkable how tricky it is to do something that is supposed to be such a natural anatomic movement. :D

[milesdyson]

So do you think I should try to restrict how much I let knees travel forward?
No.

See where your knees are at the bottom position? Put them there as soon as you can on the way down, and then stop moving them. Like in Justin's or nisora's squat. One of the best videos to watch to see good knee movement is Rip's 315x10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVKEl4Wxoqc). His hips and knees break at the same time, knees move quickly to their spot, and then he starts moving the hips back.

This is on page 47 of SS.

[Dastardly]

Thats what I thought I was doing!

In this case I will continue to focus on getting knees forward as soon as possible. Hopefully it will improve with time.

[Dastardly]

Right, I have an update.

In my last attempts which you folks commented on I was attempting to break at the knees & hips at the same time. With knees going forwards and hips going backwards in unison on the descent.

You commented that I should put knees in final position first, and then squat down. So I have been trying to do this since then. I have examples, can you tell me if it is better or worse:

Empty Bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX3BSOTGGAs
40kg Warm-up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku2Qs3Diy_o
75kg Work Set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL68Zsulmrc

[Sami]

Wait, what?

That is some of the most inconsistent squatting I've ever seen. Need to clean that up. :D

So what are you trying to do? Are you trying to break at the knees first and THEN put the hips back separately? If so, NO.

The hips and knees break at the same time. The knees get into position (tubow) during the first 1/3 of the descent and STAY there. Then on the last 1/3 of the ascent, the come back.

I don't know what's been said earlier in the thread, I refuse to read the 5 pages of it; it's 1:18AM here. :D

[Dastardly]

No.

See where your knees are at the bottom position? Put them there as soon as you can on the way down, and then stop moving them. .

.

[Dastardly]

Wait, what?


I don't know what's been said earlier in the thread, I refuse to read the 5 pages of it; it's 1:18AM here. :D

Is it better or worse than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TYMNDpCS_Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QYxk0OlbKs

Just need to know which direction to follow. My initial problem was excessive sitback at beginning trying to keep shins vertical. As I approached the bottom my knees would drift forwards.

I then posted the two (above) videos when I practiced using the knees forward cue. I felt id cracked the whole breaking at knees & hips at the same time thing. But everyone told me it was still wrong and than I need to get knees to final position first, then squat down. So that is what I have been trying.

[milesdyson]

It's funny. Your squat down until the pause and subsequent divebomb looks better. Your hips and knees break at the same time, your knees stop at a decent position, but then you lose all control. I would just never imagine someone would take the advice the way you took it

Here's me doing a "two part" squat as described on page 47 of SS. I am breaking at the knees, getting them to their position, and then breaking at the hips and sitting back and down into a squat. I don't plan on squatting like this forever, but I developed some quad pain and I really wanted to perfect getting my knees out quickly. Now I'll work on getting them out and still breaking at the knees and hips simultaneously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe7Mi8llgMY

[Sami]

Is it better or worse than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TYMNDpCS_Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QYxk0OlbKs

Just need to know which direction to follow. My initial problem was excessive sitback at beginning trying to keep shins vertical. As I approached the bottom my knees would drift forwards.

I then posted the two (above) videos when I practiced using the knees forward cue. I felt id cracked the whole breaking at knees & hips at the same time thing. But everyone told me it was still wrong and than I need to get knees to final position first, then squat down. So that is what I have been trying.

Here's an interview with Rippetoe: (http://www.elitefts.com/documents/texas_bbq.htm)


CR: Let’s move on to a something that confused me a bit in Starting Strength. You mention that when descending on the back squat, you want the forward travel of the knees (dorsi flexion) to occur toward the beginning of the movement rather than occurring at the bottom of the movement, correct?

MR: What I want is the forward movement of the knees to occur at the beginning at the top.

CR: So you initiate the descent with the knees breaking first, before the hips?

MR: No, the knees break at the same time the hips break. The knees then quit moving forward when they get as far as they will go.

CR: I’m glad you cleared that up. I was almost under the impression that you wanted the knee break to occur prior to the hips breaking, and this surprised me.

MR: No, the knees do not break before the hips break. It is simultaneous. The best way to handle this is not to tell them to go forward with the knees but coach them to push the knees out. If they go out, they’ll break properly. The set of cues for each set of individual errors may be completely different. Some people I have to tell to bounce out of the bottom of the squat, some I have to say don’t bounce. Some people will over do things. I know how I want it to look and then I have to explain that to people.

[jeremyfirth]

This advice isn't for your squat form directly, but as a coach to a few skinny dudes: how about eating some more goddamn food? You've been lifting for a year (eight months seriously) and you're that skinny? Buddy, you need a date with a burger, stat.

Also, if you've read SS, I don't think you read the 2nd Edition (which probably means you just read the pdf that floats around the internet). In the 2nd Edition, on pages 47-8, there is a great solution to your knees-too-far-forward problem. Buy the book. Read the whole thing. Do the drill on 47-8. Practice about 100 times. Then put some weight on your back and practice some more. THEN post a video.

[Dastardly]

I think I have finally fixed my form over the past 3 sessions by setting knees out extremely wide into there 'final' position. Everyone telling me to put 'knees forward' was really screwing me up.

I will post some videos, soon.

In terms of the book, I ordered it a while ago now but it hasnt arrived.

Ive read the bit about TUBOW already.

[Dastardly]

there is a great solution to your knees-too-far-forward problem. .

My problem was knees to far BACKWARDS.

Knees were drifting forwards at the bottom. I read in a few places that this could be fixed by setting knees forward into final position during the beginning of the squat.

This confused me somewhat and I was doing the weird two-part squat for a few sessions.

But now I think I have fixed it by using a wider stance, knees pushed out A LOT during the beginning of the squat.

My squat looks a lot smoother now with descent and ascent both at the same speed even though I am now pushing maximal weight.