Head down on squat and other assorted questions.

[confuzzl3don3]

Ok so as everyone has been commenting on my head not staying down during squats, i finally decided to man up and concentrate on getting it right. And for the first time ever i fell backwards into the uprights of my power rack when coming back up on my 3rd rep of my workset (103kg). I managed to keep my head down the whole time, but i felt that i was coming up more backwards rather than straight up. I proceeded to deload to 92.5kg to work on this, and i noticed that with my head down i still had a tendency to move backwards a fiar tad while moving up.

I want to try 103kg again next workout on wednesday, but i was hoping for some help as to how to fix this problem. I suspect it is because i have weak quads which is causing me to fall backwards but i'm not that great on the anatomy side of things.

Here's 2 or 3 reps of 92.5kg (camera died before i could finish all 5 reps)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIpvOnaxdrk
You can see some of that backwards movement

And if you have the time please check out my press at 39.5kg today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdCHc1xGmhc
Hoping that my form has improved from last time and i'm not leaning too far back.

And because i have difficulty getting the 2nd pull of the power clean correct, i've gone back to doing 5x3 hang cleans instead for now until i get the hang of it (no pun intended). Could you guys take a look at a set of these for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWvIgQ4h3Uc

[Dastardly]

Your squat looks pretty damn perfect to me.

I like the dangling bags on your press! - You do realise the instability will make it harder? Ive been doing some pressing with a broomstick with 2 sacks of rice on each end while the gym was closed. Really tough!

[confuzzl3don3]

Really? Maybe it's just because it's lighter weight or the angle of the vid. I swear i felt i was moving back.

And about the press, yeah. It's just a bad thing i only got two 0.5kg and two 0.25kg collars. If i could get a pair of 0.5kg more than i could cover all increases of 0.5kg. So i ended up having to make do with those bag of coins. I usually try to avoid that situation but if i jump too much i can't make the reps.

[nisora33]

Really? Maybe it's just because it's lighter weight or the angle of the vid. I swear i felt i was moving back.

And about the press, yeah. It's just a bad thing i only got two 0.5kg and two 0.25kg collars. If i could get a pair of 0.5kg more than i could cover all increases of 0.5kg. So i ended up having to make do with those bag of coins. I usually try to avoid that situation but if i jump too much i can't make the reps.

Confuzzled, buddy, your press and squats look pretty good to me. Grab just a pinch more depth on those squats. Otherwise, squat form is showing a huge improvement. The last rep of your press got ugly only because you touched the bar too low on your chest and had a larger lever arm to overcome on the way back up for that rep.

-Stacey

[confuzzl3don3]

Ok maybe i was just doubting myself on the squats. I'll go for 103kg next time again and see how it turns out. And that depth thing is really pissing me off. I used to be heaps deep and now i can't break parallel sigh. I would have thought the weight would squash me down, but maybe i really need some good WL shoes.

[Nauticus]

Ok maybe i was just doubting myself on the squats. I'll go for 103kg next time again and see how it turns out. And that depth thing is really pissing me off. I used to be heaps deep and now i can't break parallel sigh. I would have thought the weight would squash me down, but maybe i really need some good WL shoes.

Try a closer stance next workout. It will really affect your depth as it did mine.

[stronger]

Most improved squat of the decade

[confuzzl3don3]

Try a closer stance next workout. It will really affect your depth as it did mine.

Mmm excellent advice. I'll try that.


Most improved squat of the decade

Aww shucks :D

[nisora33]

Confuzzled, I've never seen any video of you from the front or back, so I can't really comment on your stance width. But to determine if your stance is fucking up your depth, try videoing maybe your third and fourth warm up sets for us, really striving to hit full depth on those, then film your actual work sets and see if your depth gets shallower as the weight gets heavier. If it does, this would indicate something other than an incorrect stance width to me.

-S.

[confuzzl3don3]

Ok i'll try that. I'll try to take some vids from the back angle too.

[Force Production]

d because i have difficulty getting the 2nd pull of the power clean correct, i've gone back to doing 5x3 hang cleans instead for now until i get the hang of it (no pun intended). Could you guys take a look at a set of these for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWvIgQ4h3Uc

Elbows look a lot faster now than before.:o

[confuzzl3don3]

Thanks force. So i don't seem to be reverse curling/rowing the weight up? I ask because sometimes i feel a stretch in my biceps near the elbow and i don't know if it's just my lack of flexibility or whether i'm doing it wrong.

[quadancer]

Okay, I admit I haven't read SS, but what's up with the "head down" posture? Most everybody I see at PL meets has his head up. I've always squatted that way myself; it seems more natural for driving the weight.

[Mr.City]

Rip explains that it allows the squatter to more effectively enable hip drive.

[Mirage]

I remember seeing your older squat videos. Your form has definitely improved A LOT!

[PVC]

Okay, I admit I haven't read SS, but what's up with the "head down" posture? Most everybody I see at PL meets has his head up. I've always squatted that way myself; it seems more natural for driving the weight.

I'm new to the board, but I've read the book a million times, so I'll give this question a go.

The safest position of your spine is a "neutral" position. When you're standing up straight, the neutral position of your spine is achieved when your head looking straight ahead, parallel to the ground - looking down or up changes your spinal curvature. When you bend over to, say, a 45 degree angle, your spine will be in a neutral position when your head is looking down at a 45 degree angle. If you look up (i.e. straight ahead), you would be putting the head out of its normal alignment with the spine and this results in hyperextension of the lower back. This is an issue for two reasons:

1) It kills hip drive, which is the most important component of the low bar squat that Mark uses in his book.

2) It is dangerous to hyperextend the spine when it's supporting hundreds of pounds. Hyperextending the back makes it difficult to effectively use the abdominals to stabilize the trunk since they work best when the spine is in a neutral position.

[nisora33]

I'm new to the board, but I've read the book a million times, so I'll give this question a go.

The safest position of your spine is a "neutral" position. When you're standing up straight, the neutral position of your spine is achieved when your head looking straight ahead, parallel to the ground - looking down or up changes your spinal curvature. When you bend over to, say, a 45 degree angle, your spine will be in a neutral position when your head is looking down at a 45 degree angle. If you look up (i.e. straight ahead), you would be putting the head out of its normal alignment with the spine and this results in hyperextension of the lower back. This is an issue for two reasons:

1) It kills hip drive, which is the most important component of the low bar squat that Mark uses in his book.

2) It is dangerous to hyperextend the spine when it's supporting hundreds of pounds. Hyperextending the back makes it difficult to effectively use the abdominals to stabilize the trunk since they work best when the spine is in a neutral position.

This is a case where practical experience and theoretical knowledge/book learning diverge. While in theory, you might expect the head looking up to result in overextension, from a practical point of view, this just isn't the case. Most folks when confronted with a heavy load, will be fighting to keep the keep the back in extension, and at best, the act of looking up might help keep the upper back a little tighter/chest from dropping forward. Unless the squatter in question is already above-average flexible (READ: capable of overextending the spine even under heavy loads [you'll occasionally train people like this]), you won't have to worry about overextension, even with the squatter looking up.

The issue at hand is, rather, that where the head goes the body will follow. You're right that looking up kills hip drive, but this has more to do with hip position relative to the knees. Simply put, looking up can result in the hips shifting forward toward the knees, and this shortens the distance between the hamstring origin at the ischial tuberosity and its insertion point at the back of the tibia. Hamstring involvement drops off, thereby killing hip drive. At worst, you'll see folks starting to lead with the chest when driving out of the bottom position, when what we would like to see is hips and chest rising at the same time.

You were on the right path, and well, at least you're actually thinking about these matters in detail, which is more that I can say for most people.

-Stacey

[quadancer]

I totally feel that is correct and well said. I would add also that by looking forward, balance is easier having a level horizon in view, especially when going for a max effort occasionally and my face is exploding.

[PVC]

This is a case where practical experience and theoretical knowledge/book learning diverge. While in theory, you might expect the head looking up to result in overextension, from a practical point of view, this just isn't the case. Most folks when confronted with a heavy load, will be fighting to keep the keep the back in extension, and at best, the act of looking up might help keep the upper back a little tighter/chest from dropping forward. Unless the squatter in question is already above-average flexible (READ: capable of overextending the spine even under heavy loads [you'll occasionally train people like this]), you won't have to worry about overextension, even with the squatter looking up.

The issue at hand is, rather, that where the head goes the body will follow. You're right that looking up kills hip drive, but this has more to do with hip position relative to the knees. Simply put, looking up can result in the hips shifting forward toward the knees, and this shortens the distance between the hamstring origin at the ischial tuberosity and its insertion point at the back of the tibia. Hamstring involvement drops off, thereby killing hip drive. At worst, you'll see folks starting to lead with the chest when driving out of the bottom position, when what we would like to see is hips and chest rising at the same time.

You were on the right path, and well, at least you're actually thinking about these matters in detail, which is more that I can say for most people.

-Stacey

Thanks for correcting me. I'll work on the practical experience part ;)

[confuzzl3don3]

Confuzzled, I've never seen any video of you from the front or back, so I can't really comment on your stance width. But to determine if your stance is fucking up your depth, try videoing maybe your third and fourth warm up sets for us, really striving to hit full depth on those, then film your actual work sets and see if your depth gets shallower as the weight gets heavier. If it does, this would indicate something other than an incorrect stance width to me.

-S.

Ok, so in today's workout i took some vids from the back view as well.

Here's 103kg from the side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfeE5QbS4GE

Hopefully i managed to hit the correct depth here, though i felt i was a bit high on the last 1. Also i only managed to hit 4 reps.

Here is 103kg from the back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Sym7x_yyg

Sorry i couldn't get the actual feet :( as you know i lift in my cramped lil' bed room and so my bed was in the way. I'll try and figure a way around it hopefully. I think the camera angle was tilted a bit so use the top beam of the power rack as a reference for parallel to ground. I think i was still lopsided (ass seems to be shifting to right on way up).

I tried narrowing the stance a tad to see if it would help, and my right leg ended up caving in and so i just hit 1 rep for my last set :(

To be honest i think my squats have hit a wall and i'm not sure if it's time to move on to intermediate programming for them. I've deloaded i think twice already. Ever since crossing the 100kg mark my squats have been extremely hard and i've been going by 0.5kg increases and have now been getting inconsistent sets 4/5/1 today. I'm not sure how you're meant to fail a squat, but i fail mine because my core fails to maintain my back and i can feel my back rounding under the weight. So is it time to move on to intermediate? Throw in some front squats on wednesday or what? My other lifts are still progressing albeit a bit slowly.

And here's my bench at 60kg from the side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ZveDrueCQ

and from the front
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsttvSlSnak

Seems to be some lopsidedness with this (left side seems lower). If i could get some expert eyes on this.

I managed to hit 118.5kg for 5 reps today for deadlift but i had a fairly rounded back so i'll try to fix it up more first before posting a vid of my deadlift.

[Mirage]

How much weight did you gain in the last weeks? As I said, I watched your older videos. Your formed has improved a lot but your size seems to be the same. This might be actual the problem.

In addition, I think you somehow increased your squats a bit faster than your other lifts. I don't know how much you weight. But just by looking, I think you are already doing pretty well with the squats for your size. But I am by no means an expert on this topic. Take it with a grain of salt. :)