The Novice Effect

[stef]

"We have a member here at WFAC who gained 55 pounds in 11 weeks. I shit you not. Zach Evetts started with us here in late August of 2009 and by November 12 when I weighed him and measured his bodyfat he had gained a total of 55 pounds of bodyweight and a little over 31 pounds of lean body mass (LBM). This calculates to a LBM gain of 2.84 pounds per week, approximately the rate of growth seen in young farm animals. Little baby pigs grow about this fast, and lots of people make money by raising baby pigs."

Direct article link (http://startingstrength.com/articles/novice_effect_rippetoe.pdf).

Resources page (http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/resources).

[anchor]

the p90x thing is everywhere lately. anyway, thanks for the clarity, rip.

[Notbigyet]

Firstly, congrats to Zach! Damn.

What do you think you could do with a 155 lber starting with a 205x5x5 squat? I'm buying and starting SS as soon as I'm out of bootcamp in May.

[Gary Gibson]

60% LBM gain...and 40% fat!? Oh no! He must have lost his abs!

Seriously, I think people really don't understand how necessary fat gain is for getting more muscle. The ratio is nearly 1-to-1 even in a novice and it's my understanding that it gets closer to 1-to-1 and even inverts as one gets closer to one's genetic potential for carrying muscle. (Eventually NO muscle is added--though this could be an asymptotic thing--but more fat is.)

Takeaway: you have to get fatter to get more muscular, period. In fact, you have to gain almost as much fat as you do muscle. Eventually you will be gaining more fat than muscle. Just the way it works. It's the airbrushed magazine cover influenced majority of gym-goers who just can't wrap their heads around this biological law and who will never get bigger and stronger.

[semperteneo]

I very much appreciate this article. Thanks for pumping these out.

[TartanEagle]

Great article. Keep them coming!

[HamptonMike]

It would seem that the methodology of Crossfit would be to milk the novice phase of training as long as possible with the use of constantly varied workouts.
Are these so called "muscle confusion" programs ever necessary or effective for the advanced trainee or would a more structured training program always have better results? (Not that I want to try such silly BS)

[homerj742]

Good article, that reinforced what was discussed in PPST (using some more recent real-life examples).

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

Great article, and photo proof that gaining 55 pounds in 11 weeks doesn't mean you will get fat.

[Eanderson]

Great Article. I have a friend on the program who is about Zach's starting size, and this will be very inspiring to him.

RE: crossfit, p90x, etc., I discovered the same thing once I started them. They were fun and challenging up until the moment I realized there was no progression built in. I can say without exaggeration that after 9 months of p90x and crossfit, I was weaker overall than when I started (years of bodybuilding splits had given me some strength).

After 12 workouts on starting strength and GOMAD I've gone from 215lbs. to 238 lbs. (I'm 6'5") and I haven't stalled on any lifts (5 lbs per workout).

I wish I'd found this sooner.

[MAD9692]

Do you think Zach is a freak from a genetics viewpoint or because he is a 20yr old that followed the program to the letter? I would think that most 20 yr olds novices that followed the SS program and ate the way that is recommended by Rip (GOMAD, 6k calories a day, etc) would have similiar results.

[Tim Lofton]

Great article, even for someone with an extra 23 years on Zach. Especially so for someone in college; that takes a lot of focus and dedication.
Another in an informative line of articles submitted here. Way to go Zach :cool:and thanks to all involved.

tim

[cjangelo]

Congrats Zach, and to his coaches as well.

But what about this Bryan Fox kid? Holy shit. Justin, can you explain a little bit how you noticed that this guy could still benefit from linear progression? How did you recognize this fact?

365 to 515 on your working weights in 5 months, all while participating in two other sports is unbelievable.

[metermanja]

my experience with the SS program has been quite encouraging. I started with a 95lb x 5 x 5 squat. Todays workout was 230 x 4 reps x 3 sets. My starting weight was around 178(dont remember exactly) but now i weigh close to 190. I eat no meat and eggs very rarely. Just milk, SS technique and do-wins.

[JLascek]

Congrats Zach, and to his coaches as well.

But what about this Bryan Fox kid? Holy shit. Justin, can you explain a little bit how you noticed that this guy could still benefit from linear progression? How did you recognize this fact?

365 to 515 on your working weights in 5 months, all while participating in two other sports is unbelievable.

Bryan joined the gym as a consequence of having the school fitness center shut down and take out the weightlifting platforms. I didn't just jump up and say, "Hey man, wanna get strong?" He came from a self-admitted bodybuilding type approach (like we all have), but he still squatted and messed around with the Olympic lifts. The only formal coaching he had was with Dr. Kilgore in one of his classes.

Anyway, I started giving him little tweaks here and there, and he started trusting me more. You have to earn respect if you are going to try and help someone in a gym. In one conversation he told me that he had a bad hamstring and would pull it every now and then, especially when sprinting. I told him that if he started using those hamstrings in the squat and start deadlifting again then it would go away.

Anyway, long story short, I got him to point his toes out and shove his knees out in the squat, start deadlifting, cleaned up his starting position in the snatch and clean, widened his grip on the snatch to allow him to hit his belly better (to finish the second pull), changed his grip a bit on his clean, fixed the dip drive in the jerk, and divised and supervised his program as he started practicing football for a minor league team, and coached him on the majority of his training sessions since. I told him he'd have to eat more than before, and he did. He took a liking to chocolate milk. Bryan was going to compete in the 94 kg class in weightlifting (208 lbs), but then he weighed 216. Oh well. The added muscle allowed him to continue putting 10 pounds on his squat work sets every week, twice a week while adding lots of kilos to his Oly lifts. He has snatched 115 and clean an jerked 155, and I think he can go at LEAST 117.5/157.5 at the meet, and probably 120/160.

The reason I knew that he could linearly progress is because A) wasn't 100% proficient in doing the lifts, B) he wasn't deadlifting regularly, and C) his programming was not a linear progression. By correcting form faults, it would allow him to develop musculature easily since that musculature previously wasn't being used properly, and it would allow him to get more muscles stronger faster. Bryan didn't argue, listened, followed directions, learned a lot, and got pretty fucking strong. We are pals now, and we will both lift in the 105 kg class in the Texas State meet in about 11 days. The end.


It would seem that the methodology of Crossfit would be to milk the novice phase of training as long as possible with the use of constantly varied workouts.
Are these so called "muscle confusion" programs ever necessary or effective for the advanced trainee or would a more structured training program always have better results? (Not that I want to try such silly BS)

If you are using the term "novice" with respect to strength, CrossFit does not make intermediate lifters because there is no strength training in the training regime.

For intermediate or advanced strength trainees, they would condition for their sport or competition. If someone were interested in General Physical Preparedness, then there are more effective ways of doing this.

[cjangelo]

By correcting form faults, it would allow him to develop musculature easily since that musculature previously wasn't being used properly, and it would allow him to get more muscles stronger faster.

So someone that is already strong and training like an intermediate could, by improving his technique, again progress like a novice for a period of time?

[dumbinic]

If you are using the term "novice" with respect to strength, CrossFit does not make intermediate lifters because there is no strength training in the training regime.

So basically someone who has been doing CrossFit for a period of time would just start at the beginning as a novice until they hit a wall?

[JLascek]

So someone that is already strong and training like an intermediate could, by improving his technique, again progress like a novice for a period of time?

It depends. If they did it on their own, it is unlikely they were actually an intermediate anyway.

[Gary Gibson]

So someone that is already strong and training like an intermediate could, by improving his technique, again progress like a novice for a period of time?

Existing strength has nothing to do with how you can progress. There are guys on this very board squatting 405 for sets across who are still gaining like novices.

How you've been training has nothing to do with how you should train to optimally progress. Your body doesn't care that you've been squatting once per month on HIT or doing a double bodypart split for the past decade or if you've squatted 500 raw in competition; you will still progress like a novice if you are a novice.

[AaronRFD]

Justin, was Bryan following the outline you suggested in another thread that has Oly lifts on Monday and Thursday, and squats, presses and DLs on Tuesday and Friday? On what days did he have his football practices? And how much time would he have between sessions if the practices were on a training day?
I really like that set up as I really enjoy the Oly lifts in addition to SS workouts.

[JLascek]

So basically someone who has been doing CrossFit for a period of time would just start at the beginning as a novice until they hit a wall?

This has been my experience 100% of the time. If all you do is conditioning workouts then advancing beyond the novice stage is impossible.

[JLascek]

Justin, was Bryan following the outline you suggested in another thread that has Oly lifts on Monday and Thursday, and squats, presses and DLs on Tuesday and Friday? On what days did he have his football practices? And how much time would he have between sessions if the practices were on a training day?
I really like that set up as I really enjoy the Oly lifts in addition to SS workouts.

Yes, that is what he was doing. Football practice was on Thursday and Sunday, I think. Sometimes he would leave from doing Sn/C&J to go to football practice that evening.

Even though you may like the linear progression with Olympic weightlifting, you may need to get stronger first. Brian and Sammerr (another one of our weightlifters) were pretty strong when they started integrating the Oly lifts, and were still able to make progress across the board.

[Greg C]

If you are using the term "novice" with respect to strength, CrossFit does not make intermediate lifters because there is no strength training in the training regime.

For intermediate or advanced strength trainees, they would condition for their sport or competition. If someone were interested in General Physical Preparedness, then there are more effective ways of doing this.

Justin: I'd be interested in your reasoning behind the 1st statement. Although not nearly as effective as a concentrated strength program like SS/TM etc, don't you think the ME days that get programmed would constitute "strength training?" Note: I agree you'll likely never be an intermediate following MP, although you could probably get there eventually following a hybrid program like CFSB.


This has been my experience 100% of the time. If all you do is conditioning workouts then it advancing beyond the novice stage is impossible.

Yep. Fortunately, I found this site and read a lot. I only wasted a little time doing CFSB (1 cycle) before realizing I could get strong faster. I have to admit though, I enjoy the variability of the CF WODs and as a military member, there is definitely some value in the variety of work done that makes staying in "condition" enjoyable.

[JLascek]

Justin: I'd be interested in your reasoning behind the 1st statement. Although not nearly as effective as a concentrated strength program like SS/TM etc, don't you think the ME days that get programmed would constitute "strength training?" Note: I agree you'll likely never be an intermediate following MP, although you could probably get there eventually following a hybrid program like CFSB.

Absolutely not. The "max effort" days you speak of occur so infrequently that they would never stress the person enough to require weekly (intermediate) programming, and don't do a good job of making anyone strong. I don't know what "MP" is, but the CFSB is not a very good "hybrid" program.



Yep. Fortunately, I found this site and read a lot. I only wasted a little time doing CFSB (1 cycle) before realizing I could get strong faster. I have to admit though, I enjoy the variability of the CF WODs and as a military member, there is definitely some value in the variety of work done that makes staying in "condition" enjoyable.

There are plenty of things that you can use to get conditioned that are far less complicated and far more useful. I'm not typically concerned with someone's enjoyment of the exercise, just their adaptation of improved performance. Variability for the sake of variability usually isn't useful.

[Jeff Horner]

Variability for the sake of variability usually isn't useful.

Hmm... very interesting statement. I like it.

[DanielM]

Great article that shows how much is possible training hard and smart.
I'm an 18 years old novice myself, training for about a 5 or so weeks. Drinking half a GOMAD along with other big meals, plus being a teenager, has gotten me up from 139 pounds to 163 (in my defense I'm only 1.68). I'm not quite a man by 70s big standards yet, but I'm hoping to get there one day.