Fights

[SerusMournstar]

Hey Coach, this is stupid,off topic, and juvenile so feel free to delete it if you want. I was just reading your article about squatting and found it amusing that you were first motivated to lift from your experience getting sucker punched. I was just wondering if you have been in any fights since then and if you think your weight training made a difference, or, to quote Dr. Steve Brule, you learned "how to stay the heck out of a fight". Obviously anyone who is bigger and stronger will have an advantage in a fight, just wondering if you have any good stories. Anyway, thanks for the books, I have them all and they are awesome.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Fighting is expensive in terms of dentistry and legal matters, and I am usually broke, so I can't afford it. I have successfully managed to avoid it for decades now.

[George Noble]

This is how the British got an empire - our teeth were already crap so we weren't afraid of anyone.

[Dastardly]

This is how the British got an empire - our teeth were already crap so we weren't afraid of anyone.

Now now, its not that the british technically have worse teeth. Its just we dont demand every movie/popstar to look like a airbrushed playboy cover. We accept more average looking people on the TV.

Also majority of people rely on NHS (govt) dentistry which does not get people to wear braces/retainers unless absolutely necessary.

[MAD9692]

I dont think its juvenile and this shit tends to happen from time to time especially after long nights of drinking. A few months ago I got into a drunken scrap (I weigh 215 now) and it was by far a ridiculously easy endeavor. Keep in mind that I got into it with someone who was taller, heavier and who I have personally seen beat the shit out of people in the past. Nonetheless gaining the weight and strength makes handling your self a lot easier...easier than you can imagine.

[tdwaffle15]

Not that everyone wants to start hearing fighting tales, but since I was in a fight 2 hours ago (ice hockey) I'll go ahead and comment- although it's obviously different balancing on skates than shoes.

I've gotten a lot stronger and put on 30 lbs since the last time I dropped my gloves...the biggest difference I noticed was that it was much easier to control the guy's body position. I was able to push and tug on his jersey more easily to keep him off balance, while he had a tough time moving me.

Of course that's to be expected since I'm both Stronger and Heavier...

[Kostas]

The only problem is that a 500lb squat won't help you deflect a knife, or a broken bottle, or a bullet, or even the punch of a drunken deranged bantamweight boxer (and he will knock you on your arse).

Of course if you really have no choice but to to mix it up, then better to be strong.

[stronger]

Fighting just seems like another stupid way to get killed, generally. Something I'm trying to avoid

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

Also majority of people rely on NHS (govt) dentistry

Which must mean they don't rely on anyone at all. As far as I can tell, NHS dentists went almost extinct about a decade ago, and are now rarer than honest politicians.

IPB

[Patrick]

Meh, I've had the pleasure of being mugged twice, once in the wonderful nation of Brazil (it's very interesting to be liberated of your wallet by people speaking a language you don't understand) and so I get the utility of having some ass to put behind a punch, but does anyone really want to be getting into fights once high school's over? I mean... we're talking about the prospect of jail if you win and a hospital if you lose... and then jail once you're done eating Jello and pissing blood. Plus, even though I'm a lot sturdier than I used to be, I don't have the desire to get hit in the head anymore. I didn't have the desire then but I've developed an aversion.

That said, the time I got mugged and didn't lose my wallet makes for a much better story than the time I did.

[kevin1969]

So give us the details. Come on !!!!!

[George Noble]

Well I'm British and I have bad teeth so it must be true.

Getting shanked is not easy no matter how big and strong you are.

[ThatGuy]

Now now, its not that the british technically have worse teeth. Its just we dont demand every movie/popstar to look like a airbrushed playboy cover. We accept more average looking people on the TV.

Also majority of people rely on NHS (govt) dentistry which does not get people to wear braces/retainers unless absolutely necessary.

I don't know about your use of the word "average" there... Really says a lot about the govt running things, huh?

[78704]

One of the entertainments of grappling practice is the shocked expressions on the guys' faces - guys who can clearly outbench and outcurl me - when we're tying up, clinching. Yeah, my favorite lifts are squat and deadlift, why? ;)

[kevin1969]

I've always wondered about this. How strength developed thru powerlifting differs from strength developed thru body building.

I assume this guy was a body builder type ?

[Stu Hughes]

To quote Luis Gutierrez of SBGi:



The myth of street fighting: They seldom ever occur on a street. Try instead, bars, clubs and places serving alcohol and selling a whole lot of mood and attitude. These ego-based displays of physical prowess usually occur around locations where single people go in numbers to socialize.
Obviously mix sex and drugs together with a large number of single people and those not getting any of the first and too much of the second will be very frustrated. When you visit an establishment where the ultimate goal of most intoxicated patrons by midnight is to fight or fornicate, your chances of feeling the fight or flight response, a boot or bottle to the head, and even getting arrested is a good one. I practically lived and worked in clubs from age 17 through 28. Avoid them and you avoid 99% of the so called street fights.

[BPIII]

This type of training definitely helps one avoid injury, from fighting or otherwise.

I recently went biking down a fairly bumpy but novice trail with my young kids. I was riding in front, reasonably fast, and looking back over my shoulder to make sure they were keeping up when I had a sudden unexpected sense of "levitation."

I know this trail fairly well but had been caught offguard by a fairly significant bump in the trail (large root system actually) that I had always avoided and forgot was there.

According to my kids, I got "major air." Given that my head was turned, I had no real opportunity to get my front tire up and I went pitching head over handlebars, pretty hard and pretty fast. The front of my bike smashed into the trail and, to give you a sense of the violence of the collision, is seriously fucked up. I ended up landing in what my 5-year old son said was a "handstand."

Here's where Starting Strength kicked in. I somehow tucked and rolled from that position, ending up on my back. Hands scraped and bruised to hell but NOT A SINGLE ADDITIONAL INJURY OTHER THAN A SLIGHTLY TWEAKED SHOULDER.

I was a fat, sedentary piece of shit 12 weeks ago. I'm certain that if I hadn't been doing this program, I'd have been unable to support my weight in the handstand position enabling the roll and either: a. crumpled face first into the trail; or b. significantly injured my shoulder.

[78704]

Lotta guys who lift alternate benches and curls, because, you know, they get enough leg work jogging. They look good in the bathroom mirror, good in the barroom mirror. They might even be strong... at benches and curls. If they tie up with a squatter, though, suddenly strength means something else altogether. Search Youtube for Aleksandr Karelin for the premier example of grappling strength; he scared world-class 275# Greco-Roman wrestlers into letting him pin them, with a move that's usually only possible for guys a hundred pounds lighter; watching him has that same nut-shriveling effect as watching early Tyson; makes you want to lock the doors and chamber a round in the shotgun, just in case.

[taowave]

I assume you are talking about rolling in BJJ??

You should know,and I find out the hard way that being big and strong has ZERO correlation to fighting..Not saying that all things equal,the stronger fighter isnt the better fighter,but if you arent a trained fighter,do NOT let your deadlifting ability go to your head..

If you dont believe me,go down to any decent BJJ school and roll with the smallest male purple belt (and above )and let me know how it went when you regain consciousness:)

If being choked out/submitted doesnt convince you,go find a decent Muay Thai school and and try to lift your way out of the "clinch"...






One of the entertainments of grappling practice is the shocked expressions on the guys' faces - guys who can clearly outbench and outcurl me - when we're tying up, clinching. Yeah, my favorite lifts are squat and deadlift, why? ;)

[Mark Rippetoe]

You continue to amaze me, Tao. I'll bet you're one of those guys that thinks Bruce Lee could just murder the SHIT out of Mariusz Pudzianowski. Or Chiyonofuji. Why do you think boxing has weight classes?

[Domjo54]

I assume you are talking about rolling in BJJ??

You should know,and I find out the hard way that being big and strong has ZERO correlation to fighting..Not saying that all things equal,the stronger fighter isnt the better fighter,but if you arent a trained fighter,do NOT let your deadlifting ability go to your head..

If you dont believe me,go down to any decent BJJ school and roll with the smallest male purple belt (and above )and let me know how it went when you regain consciousness:)

If being choked out/submitted doesnt convince you,go find a decent Muay Thai school and and try to lift your way out of the "clinch"...

Man, are you kidding me? I agree 1000% that fighting technique is important--otherwise I, at 175 lbs, would be able to wreck a 165 lb fighter. But clearly, I cannot (even if we had the same muscle mass), so you are right in some regard. But, as Rip said, why are there weight classes than? If your argument is that a 200 lb boxer with good technique isn't will lose to a 200 lb boxer with impeccable technique, than obviously you are correct--otherwise, why would boxers train any way but with weights? But, if you are saying that strength is no factor in fights, you are very mistaken--I just hope that I can attend the day that you pick a bar fight with a 250 lb power lifter, thinking that your 6 months of boxing lessons will bridge the 50 lb muscle gap.

Moral of the story: physical strength and technique are important, which is why both are trained--don't for a second think that strength has no correlation to a fight.

[Domjo54]

also, see the following (Pudzianowski's MMA debut):

http://ballhype.com/video/youtube-pudzian-mariusz-pudzianowski-marcin-najman-el/

*Tao shits himself*

[tnumrych]

You continue to amaze me, Tao. I'll bet you're one of those guys that thinks Bruce Lee could just murder the SHIT out of Mariusz Pudzianowski. Or Chiyonofuji. Why do you think boxing has weight classes?

Or, to use an analogy that Tao seems to be more comfortable with, why does the UFC have weight classes? Tao, what do you think the outcome of a fight between Brock Lesnar (http://www.wrestlescoop.com/wallpaper/brock_lesnar_wallpaper.jpg) and, lets say BJ Penn would be? Both are champions in their respective weight classes (heavyweight vs lightweight). According to your logic, since Penn is a much better jiu jitsu (he has a black belt) than Lesnar (no belt that I know of), the fight would result in a submission. Somehow I have serious doubts about that.

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

I think Tao suffers from delusions of adequacy.

[drlvegas]

While BJJ and Muy Thai are probably the best sport fighting disciplines, they are not real fighting. Having a great guard loses something if you have to do it in a parking lot of rocks and glass and with people around who may enjoy kicking you in the head. When you get someone in your guard who is not playing by any set of "rules", there's a good chance you'll get to find out what it feels like to have your nuts smashed by an elbow. If that elbow belongs to Mariusz Pudzianowski, you're really fucked.

[kevin1969]

You should know,and I find out the hard way that being big and strong has ZERO correlation to fighting..

Floyd Mayweather forced his last opponent to come up in weight while he purposely didn't make weight. Big and Strong has a HUGE impact on fighting.

Put a 200lb noob into a 100lb kids guard and tell the 200lber to start smashing his way out. I guarantee that the 100lb kid isn't going to maintain that guard for long or pull off any amazing submissions.

See Brock Mir 2 for more details.

[cervicornis]

You should know,and I find out the hard way that being big and strong has ZERO correlation to fighting.

This statement is as silly as it is strong. Sounds like you rolled with a small purple belt and got your ass kicked. That happens to all everyone. Make no mistake, if you were smaller and weaker, you would have have gotten your ass kicked even harder.

Being strong and possessing muscular body weight helps tremendously in BJJ. Yes, you will still get your ass handed to you by players with better technique or experience, but what do you expect?

And don't forget, recreational BJJ is a far different animal than a street fight. In a barroom brawl, I would put my money on Joe "450 squat" over a 165 lb. purple belt.

[Tom Chase]

I've been involved in the martial arts for 16 years now and I will tell you without a doubt that getting bigger and stronger is the best thing I ever did to improve my ability. When I first got my black belt around 6 years ago I weighed 150lbs(5'6"). Around 2 years ago I discovered effective strength training (Rips books) and dumped the bodybuilding shit. Now at 182lbs. and a shit-ton stronger, I've improved my effectiveness tenfold.

Don't get me wrong, great technique and the right aggressive attitude can overcome a larger and stronger man but it's difficult. But one little thing going wrong can end up with the situation going downhill fast. Most don't realize this because their experience consists of being on the mat or in the dojo. It's easy when you're in your own environment and playing by your rules. In reality the chances for things to go wrong are increased substantially because no one is going to play by your rules. When that happens you better have the physical strength to overcome.

[mlentzner]

Making any absolute, this is the key item, statement about something as complex as fighting is silly.

The way I see it, there are three aspects of being successful: The physical (being big and strong), the mental (being willing to risk injury and willing to hurt someone else), and the skill (moving efficiently, not breaking your hand when you punch someone).

If you want to be good you have to spend time in all three realms. Not having any weaknesses in those three realms is more important than being really well developed in one area. This is probably true of just about any contact sport as well.

If this is something you are concerned about then taking a martial arts class of some sort will make you much more formidable (I am assuming you are already big and strong). Adding another 20 lbs to your bench will not make much difference. Similarly, if you are a long practicing martial artist then learning a new flying kick will not have much effect on your fighting ability - being able to squat 400 lbs. will.

Matt

[famendoza]

I don't think Bruce lee could defeat even freaking Helio Gracie at 40 years of age. If we were talking about someone like Shaolin Ribeiro or better yet BJ Penn, then there's money on the table.

[jtorres3]

The first time I ever grappled with an experienced groundfighter, I would DEFINATELY say that strength helped. The guy had trained at Jackson's Gym (Rashad Evans, GSP, et al) and he weighed 270 lbs. I weighed about 205 at the time, and the fact that I could bench press well over his bodyweight saved my ass several times. Aside from a few rare instances where there is no physical leverage involved, strength ABSOLUTELY helps.
If you think otherwise, then you are putting too much faith in your martial art.

[Stu Hughes]

While BJJ and Muy Thai are probably the best sport fighting disciplines, they are not real fighting. Having a great guard loses something if you have to do it in a parking lot of rocks and glass and with people around who may enjoy kicking you in the head. When you get someone in your guard who is not playing by any set of "rules", there's a good chance you'll get to find out what it feels like to have your nuts smashed by an elbow. If that elbow belongs to Mariusz Pudzianowski, you're really fucked.

Oh Christ, here we go again with the "sport fighting doesn't work in t3h s7r337" argument.

1. How many parking lots do you see littered with rocks and glass?
2. Assaults are statistically most likely to happen near your own home.
3. Even if in the unlikely event that you end up being assaulted on a glass-strewn parking lot, can't end the fight by punching the guy out, get thrown to the floor and he ends up in your guard... are you really going to let go of the position because you've got a bit of glass in your back?
4. Who do you think is more likely to survive? The guy getting kicked on the ground who can pull guard and roll the first attacker over and get back to his feet, or the guy who just rolls up into a foetal position because the guard is "only for sport" and so never learned how to escape the bottom?
5. Have you ever tried to elbow someone in the nuts when they pulled guard? Do you really think it's a more likely scenario than them punching you in the face or putting their hands around your throat?

You know jack shit.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

The gracies are the prime example of skill defeating superior strength and athleticism. But you also have to remember, you are talking about thousands of hours of practice while being coached by someone with tens of thousands of hours practicing.

People usually underestimate the time involved getting your skill to the level where you can neutralize a large strength or fitness deficit

[Zenosparadox]

If you follow MMA you know that Frank Mir is doing some legitimate strength training and that he just crushed Kongo a while back. Also if you really dont believe strength helps look up fight science on youtube.

[Dastardly]

I don't think Bruce lee could defeat even freaking Helio Gracie at 40 years of age. If we were talking about someone like Shaolin Ribeiro or better yet BJ Penn, then there's money on the table.

Come on now, Bruce pretty much layed the foundation for the whole concept of MMA.

He was an expert in many martial arts always seeking to learn from different sources. Using what is useful & removing what is not. (jeet kune do) He practiced Judo & grappling in addition to everything else.

The fighting style which he had the most abundant expertise was probably wing chun. This type of fighting focuses on trapping range, a range which other much bolder fighting styles like muay thai fail to function in. An expert of this style of fighting can very much dominate a larger, stronger fighter by jumping into the unexpected awkwardness of this trapping range.

Experts like him delevop incredible speed & power in these short range punches and fight in a position that makes boxing or big kicks impossible. It is a highly specific style which requires highly specific defense. Plus it is not designed as a sport fighting method so everything is allowed be it kicking the groin or gouging eyes.

Even with his wing chun skills alone he would fair a good chance against many larger fighters. But he also had great long range kicks and willing open knowledge for all other fighting styles. He did not have this arrogant/nieve belief that classical was the best.

If he was around the gracies he would learn their fighting style.

[AXB]

Everyone seems to agree that being big helps when you're in a fight. No one's mentioned how much easier it is to avoid fights when your big.

When I was 60kg, people would give me shit ALL the time. Now I'm over 100kg, everyone seems alot friendlier - especially the fuckheads who used to treat me like shit.

[Mark Rippetoe]

This is an important point for prudent, mature individuals.

[drlvegas]

Oh Christ, here we go again with the "sport fighting doesn't work in t3h s7r337" argument.

1. How many parking lots do you see littered with rocks and glass?
2. Assaults are statistically most likely to happen near your own home.
3. Even if in the unlikely event that you end up being assaulted on a glass-strewn parking lot, can't end the fight by punching the guy out, get thrown to the floor and he ends up in your guard... are you really going to let go of the position because you've got a bit of glass in your back?
4. Who do you think is more likely to survive? The guy getting kicked on the ground who can pull guard and roll the first attacker over and get back to his feet, or the guy who just rolls up into a foetal position because the guard is "only for sport" and so never learned how to escape the bottom?
5. Have you ever tried to elbow someone in the nuts when they pulled guard? Do you really think it's a more likely scenario than them punching you in the face or putting their hands around your throat?

You know jack shit.

1. Most bar parking lots. You may find this hard to believe, but this is where many fights occur. Have most of the fights you've been involved in or witnessed happened on a padded mat?
2. What the fuck difference does that make?
3. Yes. I'm going to roll him, get off my back & stand up. Escapes are the main focus of our ground training. It's not so much the glass in the back, but the guy's buddy stomping on my head that concerns me.
4. That's a tough choice; very well thought out, though.
5. Yes. We train that frequently & it's very effective even @ 5% and wearing a cup; I don't think it's likely that the guy on the bottom is going to be effective at punching or choking me.

I'll bet you stayed in a Holiday Inn Express and watched UFC last night. Maybe the next one will have free WIFI & you can Google Krav Maga.


Come on now, Bruce pretty much layed the foundation for the whole concept of MMA.

He was an expert in many martial arts always seeking to learn from different sources. Using what is useful & removing what is not. (jeet kune do) He practiced Judo & grappling in addition to everything else.

The fighting style which he had the most abundant expertise was probably wing chun. This type of fighting focuses on trapping range, a range which other much bolder fighting styles like muay thai fail to function in. An expert of this style of fighting can very much dominate a larger, stronger fighter by jumping into the unexpected awkwardness of this trapping range.

Experts like him delevop incredible speed & power in these short range punches and fight in a position that makes boxing or big kicks impossible. It is a highly specific style which requires highly specific defense. Plus it is not designed as a sport fighting method so everything is allowed be it kicking the groin or gouging eyes.

Even with his wing chun skills alone he would fair a good chance against many larger fighters. But he also had great long range kicks and willing open knowledge for all other fighting styles. He did not have this arrogant/nieve belief that classical was the best.

If he was around the gracies he would learn their fighting style.

Well said. Now, in a real fight, Bruce Lee or Amir Perets?

[Gary Gibson]

This is a little like arguing which of a stool's three legs is most important. Big is hard to fight. So is strong. But you definitely can't discount skill. You need some combination of the three.

Thing is, strong (and the big that comes with it) is an all-around useful way to be. (Insert Rip quote about being harder to kill and more useful in general here.)

Read "A Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling: Dealing with the Sucker Puncher, Streetfighter, And Ambusher" by Peyton Quinn for a great analysis of real life fights and where and how they most often occur.

Most of us will not run into people skilled enough to make up for a lack of size and strength. If a 500-lb squatter/400-lb bencher/600-lb deadlifter weighing 200 lbs goes into a MMA studio, looking for a fight, he may indeed be surprised by how much trouble a wiry 165-lber gives him (though he could well outmuscle and overpower the little guy). But in most "real life on the street (actually probably in a bar somewhere)" situations, being twice as strong and/or 50% more massive is more than likely going to be more than enough as long as no weapons are involved.

MMA, BJJ, boxing, etc are designed to hurt people--literally to give people concussions, choke them into unconsciousness or produce so much pain that your they give up, throw in the towel or tap out...but you are unlikely to meet many people who have enough skill in these things for their skill to be more of a danger to you than their size and strength. And even in the face of skill we must recall that weight classes exist in these martial arts not to protect the bigger, stronger guys.

[taowave]

Stu,Thank you for being the voice of reason.If anyone has trained one day at a top level BJJ school,one day at a decent Muay Thai academy we would not be having this conversation.

I will state once again that all things equal,the stronger fighter will prevail.But 99% of this baord thinks STRENGTH is a universal power that applies to all arts.The strength a judo player/BJJ fighter requires is vastly different than that of a striker.

With that said,there are many great fighters who have succeeded without the type of strength we get from powelifting.Royce Gracie the winner of the first 2 UFC weighed 175 soaking wet and took out beasts like Shamrock,Severn and Kimo.Royces brother Rickson who never lifted a day in his life,reportedly never lost a challenge(street fight) in Brazil,went undefeated in sanctioned events and his generally regarded as the finest BJJ practioner of all time.Marcelo Garcia has taken Abu Dhabi 2 out of the last 3 years and reguarly wins open divisions at a fighting weight of 175.

If anyone is familiar with Anderson Silva,its pretty dam clear he is not a massively strong guys who devoted much time to lifting during his Chute days.BJ Penn choked out the massively strong and talented Matt Hughes before he got ito power training.

Rip brought up weight classes in boxing.He is 100% right,but there is a reason why that is a necessity in a stand up art(closed kinetic chain) vs a grapling art.As any fighter knows,it is very difficult to negate the size,strength and leverage advantage while standing.The ONLY real chance(other than the fortuitous kick in the gonads),is to take the fight to the ground where raw strength can be neutralised.

Where I do agree with the strength camp is that a ridiculously strong guy may be able to ground and pound a weaker opponent more talented opponent.Mark Kerr demonstrated that,but keep in mind he was a world class wrestler as well as juiced up.Brock Lesnar has proved that size counts,but he too was a NCAA collegiate champ(or runner up),and there are nasty unsubstantiated claims regarding his "training methods.

I find it interesting that regardelss of what is demonstrated in the UFC,people will always lay claim as to why that should not be the "yardstick"..Kimbo Slice,who is a great guy and a bare fisted street fight will be the first to tell you that competing with the MMA boys is a whole nother level.This is a guy who fights in the streets,bare fisted and normally takes out the local bouncers.Oh,and he is STRONG,but cant hold his own with B level MMA guys.

Someone brought up Krav Maga,and I am not sure if they were being sarcastic or not.For the record,the only guy who I know that competed in MMA and was a Krav Maga practitioner was Moti Hornstein,and last I looked he was 1-6.

Strength training is absolutely necessary for a "fighter".Again,all things equal,the stronger fighter is the better fighter.But by no means should one think that because they are strong in the deadlift/squat they are a capable fighter.

Last but not least,if you are as big and strong as a guy like Rip,and some little dude wants to throw down with you,the guy is either insanse/high or packing or a very talented fighter.That spells major trouble 66% of the time..

My apologies if this is a dupe post








Oh Christ, here we go again with the "sport fighting doesn't work in t3h s7r337" argument.

1. How many parking lots do you see littered with rocks and glass?
2. Assaults are statistically most likely to happen near your own home.
3. Even if in the unlikely event that you end up being assaulted on a glass-strewn parking lot, can't end the fight by punching the guy out, get thrown to the floor and he ends up in your guard... are you really going to let go of the position because you've got a bit of glass in your back?
4. Who do you think is more likely to survive? The guy getting kicked on the ground who can pull guard and roll the first attacker over and get back to his feet, or the guy who just rolls up into a foetal position because the guard is "only for sport" and so never learned how to escape the bottom?
5. Have you ever tried to elbow someone in the nuts when they pulled guard? Do you really think it's a more likely scenario than them punching you in the face or putting their hands around your throat?

You know jack shit.

[Dastardly]

you have to remember though, street fights are almost never one-on-one. I think that aspect is far more important to consider than strength, size or individual fighting skills.

The actual brawling street fighting man who has the intention of going out and hurting people is usually with some of his buddies (bitches) he likes to impress.

He is confident and experienced in brawling with a 90% chance of dominating people he attacks. Because he picks people either smaller or less confident than himself. He is not usually skilled in any fighting style but is decent at scrapping because of some natural size and athleticism. (you know, the 'jock' macho man type)

In the rare situation that one the weaker opponents he challenges proves to tough, his friends will be on it. People will break up the fight in the public place (in the bar or club) but outside him & his friends will be waiting and jump the fuck out of you. Stamp on you and smash bottles in your face.

In the UK, this is how street fights most commonly happen. People are taken by surprise and bottled in the face, sometimes then stamped on till they die. All because of the smaller opponent not cowering in front of the thug who wanted to satisfy his ego/impress his friends.

Being visibly bigger and more confident will stop people thinking about messing with you in the first place in most cases ( but some people will consider being big as being 'game' for fighting, such as a rough neighborhood with other bigger aggressive guys)

As other people have already said, the most effective way to win a street fight is to avoid it. Because if you enter that situation you are likely to get fucked no matter how awesome you think you are.

[Stu Hughes]

1. Most bar parking lots. You may find this hard to believe, but this is where many fights occur. Have most of the fights you've been involved in or witnessed happened on a padded mat?

I don't know where you live, but over in this end of the woods bar parking lots might have one or two broken glasses on a busy night, but the ground is far from littered with them.


2. What the fuck difference does that make?
See back to my quote from Luis Gutierrez. If you're getting into bar fights, your problem is that you're a stupid fuck who likes to go to places where trouble starts and get drunk and aggressive.


3. Yes. I'm going to roll him, get off my back & stand up. Escapes are the main focus of our ground training. It's not so much the glass in the back, but the guy's buddy stomping on my head that concerns me.

Oh, so the glass is suddenly not a concern now? So you're going to train in grappling, like the judoka, wrestlers and BJJ guys? Tell me, what's different about your delivery system to theirs?


4. That's a tough choice; very well thought out, though.

As an aside, the opposite extreme to the usual RBSD gurus i.e. the MMA guy who automatically pulls guard in an assault is going to get fucked, just like in the Fight Quest episode about Krav Maga .Yes, I do know what it is, and I always like to make reference to it when possible to point out Imi Lichtenfeld was an accomplished boxer and wrestler.


5. Yes. We train that frequently & it's very effective even @ 5% and wearing a cup; I don't think it's likely that the guy on the bottom is going to be effective at punching or choking me.

My fifth point was poorly worded, I was talking about the guy on the top punching and choking you as being a more likely attack. As for the effectiveness of an elbow strike to the groin, I wouldn't wager it as a defence against a solid ground game from the guard - if you have seen otherwise, I'd invite you to film yourself with some good BJJ guys drilling this.

[Stu Hughes]

Come on now, Bruce pretty much layed the foundation for the whole concept of MMA.

Sorry, not the case. In the 20th century, there's been a number of hybrid systems predating Lee, from the Vale Tudo matches of Brazil as far back as the 1930s to Bartitsu in 1900s England. Go further back and you can see the breadth of techniques in the bare-knuckle boxing of James Figg, and the pankration fights of the original Olympic Games.


The fighting style which he had the most abundant expertise was probably wing chun. This type of fighting focuses on trapping range, a range which other much bolder fighting styles like muay thai fail to function in.

The distance between two people at Wing Chun's "trapping range" is exactly the same as the Muay Thai and Greco-Roman clinch, and that for the short-range hooks and uppercuts in Western boxing. If you think your pattycake chisao happens in some mystical range unknown to sport fighters, you'll have a rude awakening when you tie up with a good Greco wrestler or nak muay.


An expert of this style of fighting can very much dominate a larger, stronger fighter by jumping into the unexpected awkwardness of this trapping range. Experts like him delevop incredible speed & power in these short range punches and fight in a position that makes boxing or big kicks impossible. It is a highly specific style which requires highly specific defense.

Wing Chunners, like many traditional martial arts, have been making these bold assertions for decades. I think you'll find when it comes to stepping up against a boxer or nak muay, punches and big kicks are not vanished into thin air by the Wing Chunner. No, what has happened on the occasion they've allowed the event to be documented on film is that they get knocked out, tapped out or choked out. Until a Wing Chunner can step up and use his "incredible speed and power" and bulletproof trapping to consistently beat strong, athletic, resisting opponents, the rational folk among us will never accept these assertions by the Chunners.


Plus it is not designed as a sport fighting method so everything is allowed be it kicking the groin or gouging eyes.

The "it's not for sport" argument became popular in TMA circles after 1993, when they all got butt-fucked by combat sport athletes. Chunners who want to step in the ring to prove the system are definitely out there, and if the system works then it'll work without the groin kicks and eye gouges. So far, so nothing. Why do you think that is?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Boys, boys, boys: you guys are going to have to take this into the other room. The adults are having a hard time hearing over your noise.

[drlvegas]

I don't know where you live, but over in this end of the woods bar parking lots might have one or two broken glasses on a busy night, but the ground is far from littered with them.


See back to my quote from Luis Gutierrez. If you're getting into bar fights, your problem is that you're a stupid fuck who likes to go to places where trouble starts and get drunk and aggressive.



Oh, so the glass is suddenly not a concern now? So you're going to train in grappling, like the judoka, wrestlers and BJJ guys? Tell me, what's different about your delivery system to theirs?



As an aside, the opposite extreme to the usual RBSD gurus i.e. the MMA guy who automatically pulls guard in an assault is going to get fucked, just like in the Fight Quest episode about Krav Maga .Yes, I do know what it is, and I always like to make reference to it when possible to point out Imi Lichtenfeld was an accomplished boxer and wrestler.



My fifth point was poorly worded, I was talking about the guy on the top punching and choking you as being a more likely attack. As for the effectiveness of an elbow strike to the groin, I wouldn't wager it as a defence against a solid ground game from the guard - if you have seen otherwise, I'd invite you to film yourself with some good BJJ guys drilling this.

Dude, the last time I got in a street fight was 1988--probably before you were born.

There are a number of Krav schools in England. In the states, the first class is free. Why don't you go check it out in real life rather than just telling me I'm full of shit based on what you've read on the internet and watched on television?

[Rorschach]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y

Best self defense video ever.

Step 1: Be a big strong guy.
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Profit.

:D

[drlvegas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y

Best self defense video ever.

Step 1: Be a big strong guy.
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Profit.

:D

If he ever gets bored of MMA and Krav, he could do stand-up. The DVD that comes with his CD/DVD set has some seriously funny shit on it.

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y

Best self defense video ever.

Step 1: Be a big strong guy.
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Profit.

:D

That video never gets old! I love Baz!

DON'T YOU EVAAA DOO DIIIIIS!!!

[anchor]

"i'm sorry...BANG! BANG! BANG! no i'm not." lmao!

[Raskolnikov]

I love Bas. I miss his commentary back when Pride was still around. I'd kill to get rid of Goldie and bring Bas into the UFC.

As to the topic, it seems obvious that size and strength can make up for a skill deficit, and skill can make up for a size and strength deficit. And, obviously, if the size/strength deficit is large enough, no amount of skill is going to save your ass. (A featherweight ain't knocking out a heavyweight, no matter how skilled the former is.)

As to what's useful in a street fight, I've been in only two (which didn't go well, by the way), but I've witnessed quite a few, a number of which, and the most recent, involved a close friend who I've known for the last 15 years. He's always been what I'd call a natural fighter, but he's also trained Muay Thai and boxing for the last 7 or 8 years (basically since the UFC and Pride started blowing up), and he recently received his blue belt in BJJ (which means he's pretty much a beginner). Every time I've seen him fight over the last few years, he never talked much, nor did he get in endless shoving matches as so often happens, he was just quick to throw the first punch, which almost always landed on the button and made for a quick fight. And, three weeks ago, I watched him shoot on a guy who was giving him shit outside of a local bar. He took him down, the guy gave up his back while trying to get up and was promptly put to sleep. No one jumped him in the process (nor has that ever happened) and, I assure you, the condition of the pavement didn't affect him... at least not until after the fight, anyways.

The point is, in the vast, vast majority of situations, knowing how to throw a punch, or submit a guy, and having the wherewithal to remain calm and react quickly (which only comes with practice, whether that's in actual fights or frequent, hard sparing) will go a long way. Training in those disciplines that lend themselves to MMA will, without a doubt, give you an edge, if only because you learn how to throw a punch and know what it's like to be punched. I know the traditional martial arts like to act like they have some mystical edge, but it's bullshit. In my opinion, if you want to learn how to fight in a meaningful way, learn how to strike in a discipline that has you actually fighting on a regular basis (even if there are rules) and learn how to handle yourself on the ground.

[Stu Hughes]

Dude, the last time I got in a street fight was 1988--probably before you were born.

There are a number of Krav schools in England. In the states, the first class is free. Why don't you go check it out in real life rather than just telling me I'm full of shit based on what you've read on the internet and watched on television?

Me saying you're full of shit wasn't because you advocate Krav Maga. Had you seen the episode in question, you'd have seen them training with members of the IDF in Israel, which was evidently hard training in standup, clinch and ground with some dirty moves thrown in. One of the trainers, Ran Nakash, is 22-0 in boxing with 18KOs. The other, Avivit Cohen, is a phys ed instructor with eight years of judo training who recently joined the Israeli judo team. Putting aside the fact that they're soldiers, these two are athletes, and clearly use combat sports as the base for their delivery systems.

My beef with people who drop in Krav Maga as a panacea to these kinds of discussions is that a huge proportion of the "Krav Maga" community have no connection to the system of the IDF other than by imitation of their name and dressing in camo pants.

Please don't think I've had no exposure to martial arts training personally. I have trained in Shotokan, Wing Chun, BJJ and freestyle wrestling. The difference in athleticism and aliveness of training between the first two and the last two was massive. I don't count the occasional friendly spar with boxing or Muay Thai friends as training, but their skill was evidently in a different league to the amateur Chunners and Shotokan guys. I remember on one occasion I was holding pads for a friend who was an amateur boxer. At sixteen years old, he punched with twice the force as my old Wing Chun sifu, a larger adult male with years of training under his belt and a good lineage, as if it counted for anything.

[kevintrangone]

I love Bas. I miss his commentary back when Pride was still around. I'd kill to get rid of Goldie and bring Bas into the UFC.

As to the topic, it seems obvious that size and strength can make up for a skill deficit, and skill can make up for a size and strength deficit. And, obviously, if the size/strength deficit is large enough, no amount of skill is going to save your ass. (A featherweight ain't knocking out a heavyweight, no matter how skilled the former is.)

As to what's useful in a street fight, I've been in only two (which didn't go well, by the way), but I've witnessed quite a few, a number of which, and the most recent, involved a close friend who I've known for the last 15 years. He's always been what I'd call a natural fighter, but he's also trained Muay Thai and boxing for the last 7 or 8 years (basically since the UFC and Pride started blowing up), and he recently received his blue belt in BJJ (which means he's pretty much a beginner). Every time I've seen him fight over the last few years, he never talked much, nor did he get in endless shoving matches as so often happens, he was just quick to throw the first punch, which almost always landed on the button and made for a quick fight. And, three weeks ago, I watched him shoot on a guy who was giving him shit outside of a local bar. He took him down, the guy gave up his back while trying to get up and was promptly put to sleep. No one jumped him in the process (nor has that ever happened) and, I assure you, the condition of the pavement didn't affect him... at least not until after the fight, anyways.

The point is, in the vast, vast majority of situations, knowing how to throw a punch, or submit a guy, and having the wherewithal to remain calm and react quickly (which only comes with practice, whether that's in actual fights or frequent, hard sparing) will go a long way. Training in those disciplines that lend themselves to MMA will, without a doubt, give you an edge, if only because you learn how to throw a punch and know what it's like to be punched. I know the traditional martial arts like to act like they have some mystical edge, but it's bullshit. In my opinion, if you want to learn how to fight in a meaningful way, learn how to strike in a discipline that has you actually fighting on a regular basis (even if there are rules) and learn how to handle yourself on the ground.


How did his knee feel after shooting in on pavement?

[Raskolnikov]

His knees were fine (he was wearing jeans, so I'm sure that saved some skin). His elbows and the palms of his hands were a bit fucked up though. But nothing worse than your average 13 year old has on a regular basis, and a hell of a lot better than what might have happened to him had he not taken it to the ground.

[taowave]

Stu is 100% right...



There is a reaon why Judo,BJJ,Wrestling,Boxing and Muay Thai stylists domiante the UFC.

Its the same reason why the Wing Chun,Krav Maga,Traditional Karate guys got their heads handed to them in the UFC.









Me saying you're full of shit wasn't because you advocate Krav Maga. Had you seen the episode in question, you'd have seen them training with members of the IDF in Israel, which was evidently hard training in standup, clinch and ground with some dirty moves thrown in. One of the trainers, Ran Nakash, is 22-0 in boxing with 18KOs. The other, Avivit Cohen, is a phys ed instructor with eight years of judo training who recently joined the Israeli judo team. Putting aside the fact that they're soldiers, these two are athletes, and clearly use combat sports as the base for their delivery systems.

My beef with people who drop in Krav Maga as a panacea to these kinds of discussions is that a huge proportion of the "Krav Maga" community have no connection to the system of the IDF other than by imitation of their name and dressing in camo pants.

Please don't think I've had no exposure to martial arts training personally. I have trained in Shotokan, Wing Chun, BJJ and freestyle wrestling. The difference in athleticism and aliveness of training between the first two and the last two was massive. I don't count the occasional friendly spar with boxing or Muay Thai friends as training, but their skill was evidently in a different league to the amateur Chunners and Shotokan guys. I remember on one occasion I was holding pads for a friend who was an amateur boxer. At sixteen years old, he punched with twice the force as my old Wing Chun sifu, a larger adult male with years of training under his belt and a good lineage, as if it counted for anything.

[JCavin]

Krav Maga = Ghey.

You know why? Because, just like that queer Russian Systema crap, it was marketed brilliantly to be "Teh Ultimatez Powa Fistacuffs 'Gainst Smelly Rapistz!"

Seriously. Sure, there are some good Krav Maga instructors. The problem is that so many con-artists saw an easy way to make money off of it and they did it well.

More examples:
- TKD. I'm sure the original stuff wasn't something to laugh at. Now? Infant blackbelts? Doing flips for no apparent reason? The reason XMA was born and made people like Taylor Lautner famous? What.The.Fuck.
- Wing Chun,Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, etc. Bruce Lee was cool and all, but why does everyone seem to forget that he abandoned it when he realized it sucked?
- Ninjitsu. Ashida Kim. Yeah, that's reason enough.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't even dream about trying to hurt someone like Higoanna Sensei. I've seen the way that dude trains. I don't think i'd even try to shoot him with any smaller than a .44 mag.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

Martial arts bares a striking resemblance to strength training and fitness.

Everyone seems to be looking for the "Magic Pill", the best, the perfect system. Just about every system works provided you follow a few basic rules.

Strength

1: Train hard
2: Focus on multi joint lifts
3: You use progressive overload
4: Pay attention to recovery
5: People who say their program means you can avoid any of the above must be avoided

Martial arts

1: you train hard
2: You focus on the basic movements first
3: You practice against actively resisting opponents
5: People who say their program means you can avoid any of the above must be avoided


Some systems may work better for than other and more often some systems work better for certian individuals than others. But there is no "Best system". Anyone who claims there is a either an idiot or a liar.

[Dastardly]

Bruce didnt abandon wing chun. And no one is saying that it is the ultimate awesome fighting method either.

It is just an extremely efficient method for a smaller person to do striking based fighting against someone much larger, stronger and accustomed to using more strength based 'big' swinging punches and kicks. Especially if they are unfamiliar with that particular method.

Someone smaller would have zero chance of fighting a big strong boxer or muay thai fighter if the smaller guy had to also use the same fighting method.

The smaller guy would have to stand back to try and maximise the power of a strike, to try and throw a big kick or punch. If it even made contact it would have little effect. But leaving the distance allows the stronger fighter practiced in big decimating kicks and punches to destroy the smaller guy in one blow.

But the girly fighting methods of wing chun allow the smaller dude a very decent chance in getting several fast strikes into vulnerable area like neck, nose & eyes and possibly even throwing the bigger opponent off-balance enough for a takedown. The strikes need not have much muscular strength behind them because of the efficiency of short range punches to vulnerable areas.

The key for the wing chunner is specificity, they spend all their time working this one specific area to get as fast & precise at it as possible. If they ever have to do it in a real fight, they need to maximise this very small opening for a small guy to dominate the big guy.

[Bloodninja666]

Anyone over the age of 18 getting into street fights is a goddamn idiot and loser. There is so much to lose in terms of money, time away from family, and your own health that you just have to be a serious zero to make the choice of fisticuffs.

One sure-fire way to avoid this kind of trouble is packing a gun. You'll find your mindset turns to avoidance, avoidance, avoidance.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

If you have a gun, you can't go to the bar.

[JCavin]

Fair enough.

But, how many Chunners have you seen that practice realistically? I'm sure there are some, but not very many. Especially when you compare it to more modern styles.

I admit, hand trapping has its place. I've even used a bunch of it during boxing matches, but that is because of the way I train.

The only pure Wing Chun guy i've seen is Francis Fong. That guy is amazing and I believe he's the authority on realistic training for his style.

I agree on the points about smaller people and their tactics, but the same thing CAN be accomplished by the same fighting style if it is trained correctly.

[Paul Sousa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXu6QmxpJE

Best fighting style.

[Patrick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXu6QmxpJE

Best fighting style.

Your horrible taste in music and even piss-poorer sense of comedy are indeed the only offense one needs to repels folks. Good work in adding nothing.

[Gary Gibson]

Anyone over the age of 18 getting into street fights is a goddamn idiot and loser. There is so much to lose in terms of money, time away from family, and your own health that you just have to be a serious zero to make the choice of fisticuffs.

One sure-fire way to avoid this kind of trouble is packing a gun. You'll find your mindset turns to avoidance, avoidance, avoidance.

I was in my old neighborhood bar a couple years ago when three dudes from the neighborhood over where there getting ridiculously drunk. One couldn't stand up anymore and the really tall one was "gonna be an asshole now" drunk. The third wasn't so bad.

Went outside to talk to family on the cell when the three strangers in the bar came out. Tall one called me a nigger for no reason beyond he was in the asshole stage of drunk. I don't for a second regret what I did to him. I can't be specific on an internet forum under my real name, but I'm sure he won't pull something like that again.

Point is that I don't think it was immature of me in that situation to put a drunken idiot in his place. And I stopped short of doing any permanent damage. Could have still gotten in trouble with the po-po of course. Don't know if I'd do the exact same again now that I'm a little more mature and not quite as easily ruffled.

[Stu Hughes]

It is just an extremely efficient method for a smaller person to do striking based fighting against someone much larger, stronger and accustomed to using more strength based 'big' swinging punches and kicks. Especially if they are unfamiliar with that particular method.

This is the assertion, but again, it never seems to bear out in reality. The idea is nice, but the problem is that violence is an inherently PHYSICAL affair. You can generate a not insignificant amount of force in a compliant demonstration using Wing Chun mechanics (though in my experience even this wouldn't be a fight stopper) but when the adrenaline hits and the other guy is hitting you hard, then your body structure will go to shit, you'll suffer from stress compression of movements, and what you'll be left with are gross motor movements backed up by lots of muscular strength.

[Paul Sousa]

Your horrible taste in music and even piss-poorer sense of comedy are indeed the only offense one needs to repels folks. Good work in adding nothing.

Thank you!

[Bloodninja666]

I was in my old neighborhood bar a couple years ago when three dudes from the neighborhood over where there getting ridiculously drunk. One couldn't stand up anymore and the really tall one was "gonna be an asshole now" drunk. The third wasn't so bad.

Went outside to talk to family on the cell when the three strangers in the bar came out. Tall one called me a nigger for no reason beyond he was in the asshole stage of drunk. I don't for a second regret what I did to him. I can't be specific on an internet forum under my real name, but I'm sure he won't pull something like that again.

Point is that I don't think it was immature of me in that situation to put a drunken idiot in his place. And I stopped short of doing any permanent damage. Could have still gotten in trouble with the po-po of course. Don't know if I'd do the exact same again now that I'm a little more mature and not quite as easily ruffled.

Don't get me wrong, in an ideal world this would be the best way for such an encounter to shake out.

Unfortunately we live in a litigious society, and one where the purpose of the cops is just to arrest based on the letter of the law without using any common-sense descretion. Gotta know the risks, and these risks keep increasing with age for a person living a well-adjusted lifestyle^^

[OITW]

I was in my old neighborhood bar a couple years ago when three dudes from the neighborhood over where there getting ridiculously drunk. One couldn't stand up anymore and the really tall one was "gonna be an asshole now" drunk. ... I don't for a second regret what I did to him. I can't be specific on an internet forum under my real name, but I'm sure he won't pull something like that again.

Yeah, but did you have to go and wreck his truck like that?

Get well, Gary.

[Magnetotail]

Don't get me wrong, in an ideal world this would be the best way for such an encounter to shake out.

Unfortunately we live in a litigious society, and one where the purpose of the cops is just to arrest based on the letter of the law without using any common-sense descretion. Gotta know the risks, and these risks keep increasing with age for a person living a well-adjusted lifestyle^^

I don't think this would be ideal. You can't allow people to personally decide what counts as a justifiable response to something like that. It's an impossible world to control.

[Alyion]

Your horrible taste in music and even piss-poorer sense of comedy are indeed the only offense one needs to repels folks. Good work in adding nothing.

I dunno man, that video scared me shitless more than any 500lb BJJ expert ever would

[taowave]

James you left out the most important aspect.At a bare minimum,there must be "full contact"..It can be a wicked O Goshi in Judo(hip throw),a shin kick in Kyokushin or Muay Thai,or a nasty choke/triangle in BJJ..

If you arent getting slammed,hit,kicked,choked in practice you are deluding yourself.If you want to be a good fighter,then FIGHT..

That is why the best systems are Judo,Wrestling,Muay Thai, Boxing,BJJ etc.There is excessive contact.They are used to getting hit.





Martial arts bares a striking resemblance to strength training and fitness.

Everyone seems to be looking for the "Magic Pill", the best, the perfect system. Just about every system works provided you follow a few basic rules.

Strength

1: Train hard
2: Focus on multi joint lifts
3: You use progressive overload
4: Pay attention to recovery
5: People who say their program means you can avoid any of the above must be avoided

Martial arts

1: you train hard
2: You focus on the basic movements first
3: You practice against actively resisting opponents
5: People who say their program means you can avoid any of the above must be avoided


Some systems may work better for than other and more often some systems work better for certian individuals than others. But there is no "Best system". Anyone who claims there is a either an idiot or a liar.

[taowave]

Are you an Okinawan Goju stylist?


Krav Maga = Ghey.

You know why? Because, just like that queer Russian Systema crap, it was marketed brilliantly to be "Teh Ultimatez Powa Fistacuffs 'Gainst Smelly Rapistz!"

Seriously. Sure, there are some good Krav Maga instructors. The problem is that so many con-artists saw an easy way to make money off of it and they did it well.

More examples:
- TKD. I'm sure the original stuff wasn't something to laugh at. Now? Infant blackbelts? Doing flips for no apparent reason? The reason XMA was born and made people like Taylor Lautner famous? What.The.Fuck.
- Wing Chun,Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, etc. Bruce Lee was cool and all, but why does everyone seem to forget that he abandoned it when he realized it sucked?
- Ninjitsu. Ashida Kim. Yeah, that's reason enough.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't even dream about trying to hurt someone like Higoanna Sensei. I've seen the way that dude trains. I don't think i'd even try to shoot him with any smaller than a .44 mag.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

My name is Jamie and I didn't leave

"out the most important aspect.At a bare minimum,there must be "full contact""

"3: You practice against actively resisting opponents"

I might not have been clear by what I meant by this, though. Randori, full contact sparring, etc are all actively resisting opponents. Basicly an opponent that is try to do you what you are trying to do to them (in a broad sense, if you are a bjj guy, going up against boxers (who are trying to knock you out but not exactly trying to do what you are doing) would count).

[JCavin]

Are you an Okinawan Goju stylist?

I used to train in Okinawan Shorin Ryu, but that was back in the day.

More recently I trained with Sifu Marc McFann for about 3 years and then had a small stint in judo.

[aiden]

Or try English style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-UfvyJMRdM

[taowave]

Sorry Jamie,I wasnt sure what you meant by "resisting opponents"..





My name is Jamie and I didn't leave

"out the most important aspect.At a bare minimum,there must be "full contact""

"3: You practice against actively resisting opponents"

I might not have been clear by what I meant by this, though. Randori, full contact sparring, etc are all actively resisting opponents. Basicly an opponent that is try to do you what you are trying to do to them (in a broad sense, if you are a bjj guy, going up against boxers (who are trying to knock you out but not exactly trying to do what you are doing) would count).

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

No problem, I figured that was the issue.

I don't think you need to go completely full contact or at least do it very often, but you should get close to it. The benefit of a resisting opponent is that you get to practice your offense and defense against someone who doesn't want to succeed in your attempt. The risk is that you can get injured to the point of having to miss either conditioning or practice. THe more someone resists, the higher the benefits and risk (this isn't true for all skill levels, beginners getting much less out of high intenstiy full contact than advanced students). At some point you have decide the risk reward ratio you are comfortable with.

[drlvegas]

I never realized there were as many shitty Krav Maga schools as there appear to be from this thread. If any of you guys are interested, KMWW actually trains their instructors in the system and how to teach it. They have a listing of their authorized schools on their website. There was some type of legal BS two or three years ago, and KMWW lost a copyright suit for exclusive use of the name in the US; now, as I understand it, anyone can use it.

I know nothing about the different types of karate. I went to a Saturday Krav seminar a few years ago; there were two girls attending--one girl who had been attending Krav for a couple months & a girl who had a TKD blackbelt & competed in TKD tournaments. At the end of the day we all did some sparring. The two girls who were about the same size & age sparred--the Krav girl beat the crap out of the TKD girl.

I'm 6'2", and 230#'s. My usual training partner is 6'5" and 340. On the ground, it is a real bitch to get this guy off of me if I'm underneath him. In a real fight, I probably wouldn't be able to. Standing, it is jarring to get struck by someone this much bigger(with headgear, shin pads, and gloves). In a real fight, if I could get in strikes to the groin or eyes without getting hit myself, I would have a chance; otherwise, I'm fucked.

In Nevada, you can take a gun(concealed, if you have a permit) into a bar. You can even drink, but can't be intoxicated while carrying. I have never done this, but people do all the time.

[Rorschach]

I wouldn't let a taekwondo expert hear you call it a type of karate. ;D

[drlvegas]

I wouldn't let a taekwondo expert hear you call it a type of karate. ;D

What would be the appropriate term?

[taowave]

Tae Kwon Do is the way of hand and foot.It is the Korean version of Karate.

Karate is a Japanese art and translates to empty hand and .There are different styles of Karate,such as Shotokan,Goju,Kyokushin and Wado Ryu.

Taekwon do is Tae Kwon do..




What would be the appropriate term?

[Weakling]

This should settle things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihuDwkL9_Ng&feature=related

[Rorschach]

I imagine a lot of taekwondo-ites would say that karate is a type of japanese taekwondo. ;)

It's a bit like calling kung-fu a type of judo. Different countries, often no love lost between them.

[drlvegas]

When the fuck did this board turn PC?

[metermanja]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrYlNNy929Y

Iyengar yoga messes up Kung fu freaks.

[JCavin]

Korea is notorious for making outrageous claims about the origins of their martial art systems.

I thought it was common knowledge that TKD was the result of Koreans bringing Shotokan back to Korea and modifying it.

[hbriem]

Korea is notorious for making outrageous claims about the origins of their martial art systems.

I thought it was common knowledge that TKD was the result of Koreans bringing Shotokan back to Korea and modifying it.

This. In the 50s and 60s Taekwondo was identical to Shotokan, down to the identical set of kata. Then they decided to get out from the Japanese shadow (which I'm sure they had good reason to want to do) and made up a bunch of new forms from scratch. They're pretty weak.

[Guido]

Wow. How the fuck did this thread go from talking about strength as it relates to fighting to e-comparing different martial arts forms?

[JCavin]

Wow. How the fuck did this thread go from talking about strength as it relates to fighting to e-comparing different martial arts forms?

Because "70rN4d0 K1ck2" will increase your squats by at LEAST 30%. Duh... :rolleyes:

[rick0202]

Please tell Sifu Mark i say hi, haven't seen him in many years but you are a lucky guy as he is a very class act and a great instructor, I am from chicago by the way, that and my screen name should be enough. Mark and Terry Gibson were really an inspiration back in the day. A lot of good memories came back when I saw that name. Did he still have a miniature horse?

[51M0n]

Or try English style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-UfvyJMRdM

How about Welsh style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNGw9mCxCug&feature=related

Picking a fight with a MMA, or a 250lb powerlifter is probably going to get you into a world of pain either way (although I doubt you'll see a powerlifter in a dress any time soon).

[milk farts]

Hypothetical

It's the year 2210 and entertainment has taken a violent turn for the worst. The most popular fighting organization takes people with no training background and gives them time to train for a no-holds-barred fight to the death (with the winner receiving enough money to make him filthy stinkin rich, or course). Two men of the same weight are selected, but there is no weigh-in before the fight. One guy decides to focus entirely on becoming a skilled fighter, the other decides to focus entirely on getting big and strong (or just strong if he's already hooge).

Who wins if they have 3 months to prepare? 6 months? 1 year? 5 years?

I think it's gotta be the guy who focuses on size and strength, across the board, and it's not even close.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

The gracies and kano have shown that after a certain period of time, the advantge will overwhlemingly shift to the guy that focuses on skill.

[milk farts]

The gracies and kano have shown that after a certain period of time, the advantge will overwhlemingly shift to the guy that focuses on skill.
Those are elite fighters who have dedicated their lives to developing fighting skills. Their analogues would be Mariusz Pudzianowski and Konstantin Konstantinovs. I'd put my money on the strong guys.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

Marius and Konstatin have dedicated their lives to strength training.

[taowave]

Lets go with worse case scenario.The skilled fighter was and still is a 180 pounder.The strength guy bulked up to 260...

After 6 months,I would say the strength guy has a chance.After 1 year he has very little chance.In 5 years the strength guy gets destroyed.

What would make you think that because a guy is big and strong with zero fighting skills,he will be a competent fighter??

Has that ever in the history of fighting occured??

If you want to be a good fighter,you have to fight....





After 1
Hypothetical

It's the year 2210 and entertainment has taken a violent turn for the worst. The most popular fighting organization takes people with no training background and gives them time to train for a no-holds-barred fight to the death (with the winner receiving enough money to make him filthy stinkin rich, or course). Two men of the same weight are selected, but there is no weigh-in before the fight. One guy decides to focus entirely on becoming a skilled fighter, the other decides to focus entirely on getting big and strong (or just strong if he's already hooge).

Who wins if they have 3 months to prepare? 6 months? 1 year? 5 years?

I think it's gotta be the guy who focuses on size and strength, across the board, and it's not even close.

[Rorschach]

The gracies and kano have shown that after a certain period of time, the advantge will overwhlemingly shift to the guy that focuses on skill.

Sure, a powerlifter with zero training/experience will probably be hammered by a decent lightweight boxer, but that's a very hypothetical situation.
The thing is, that strength and skill aren't mutually exclusive. As you mention the gracies, lets take the Royce Gracie vs Kimo fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC8TJT3-4Hk) as an example.
Gracie is an extremely skilled fighter, but does very little strength training, if any, by his own admission. Kimo is notably stronger though, despite being less technically skilled, and it shows in the fight. While Gracie won, it was very close, and I have my suspicions that if Kimo had shaved his head and avoided the hair pulling, he may well have beaten Gracie. Gracie can barely stand after the fight, and clearly has very little left "in the tank".

No-one is denying that you need strength, stamina and skill to be successful, but to claim that skill is more important than the other two is a bit of a pointless argument.
I'm hardly someone to be giving Gracie training tips, but I still say that if he did more strength training, he'd be unbeatable, as opposed to merely almost unbeatable. ;)

[milk farts]

Marius and Konstatin have dedicated their lives to strength training.

Exactly, it's only fair to compare elite athletes in one discipline to elite athletes in the other.

And to reply to tao:
You say the longer the training period, the greater advantage for the fighter over the strongman. After 20 years (assuming neither gets injured) the fighter may be amazing at striking and submitting, but any punch, kick, or submission attempt is just going to be shrugged off by the strongman. In fact, the fighter probably won't be able to set up a submission in the first place because he will have so little control over the strongman. The strongman won't need to know takedown defenses, for example, because his sheer mass will prevent this. The strongman will never have to worry about being mounted on the ground b/c he can just throw the fighter off at will. Even if the fighter was able to lock in a choke all the strongman has to do is grab the arm that's choking him and pry it off.

[JCavin]

When it comes to comparing only strength vs skill, skill is going to win every time. Can you imagine putting someone like Buakaw in the ring with Marius? Marius would be fucking destroyed, no question about it.

I don't see why this is even an issue. Granted, there will be times that those guys just get lucky, but there is a reason that experience is, and has always been, the best teacher.

[JCavin]

Exactly, it's only fair to compare elite athletes in one discipline to elite athletes in the other.

And to reply to tao:
You say the longer the training period, the greater advantage for the fighter over the strongman. After 20 years (assuming neither gets injured) the fighter may be amazing at striking and submitting, but any punch, kick, or submission attempt is just going to be shrugged off by the strongman. In fact, the fighter probably won't be able to set up a submission in the first place because he will have so little control over the strongman. The strongman won't need to know takedown defenses, for example, because his sheer mass will prevent this. The strongman will never have to worry about being mounted on the ground b/c he can just throw the fighter off at will. Even if the fighter was able to lock in a choke all the strongman has to do is grab the arm that's choking him and pry it off.

This paragraph makes me think that you've never had any real training in a submission style, or otherwise. And if you did, it wasn't realistic training.

I'll take a rear-naked choke from big guys all day long. I'll fight tooth-and-nail to make sure a little guy doesn't get it on me though. For those of you who have actually done some training on the ground, you'll know exactly why that is.

[Rorschach]

With some take-down and groundwork training, I'd be willing to put some money on Mariusz over Buakaw. :P

[Rorschach]

PS. Batman would totally beat Superman in a fight.

[milk farts]

When it comes to comparing only strength vs skill, skill is going to win every time. Can you imagine putting someone like Buakaw in the ring with Marius? Marius would be fucking destroyed, no question about it.

I don't see why this is even an issue. Granted, there will be times that those guys just get lucky, but there is a reason that experience is, and has always been, the best teacher.
Buakaw is under 150 lbs right? Yes, he would have a big advantage in is own discipline of kickboxing where there are rules that favor quickness and striking ability, but in a no-rules fight to the death Marius is a big favorite because he will get on top of Buakaw and smash his face in.

[spangler]

all I know is that the (Westley) guy in the black mask whupped Andre the giants ass. I saw it on TV.

[milk farts]

This paragraph makes me think that you've never had any real training in a submission style, or otherwise. And if you did, it wasn't realistic training.

I'll take a rear-naked choke from big guys all day long. I'll fight tooth-and-nail to make sure a little guy doesn't get it on me though. For those of you who have actually done some training on the ground, you'll know exactly why that is.
Well, you have actually done some training on the ground, so you must know exactly why that is. Please, do tell.

[JCavin]

The smaller and bonier their arms are, the more effective the choke.

You get a guy with some huge arms and he tries to choke you, sure it might hurt because he's trying to pop your head like a zit, but it is much easier to find breathing/blood flow room.

[Rorschach]

all I know is that the (Westley) guy in the black mask whupped Andre the giants ass. I saw it on TV.

Inconceivable! :O

[milk farts]

The smaller and bonier their arms are, the more effective the choke.

You get a guy with some huge arms and he tries to choke you, sure it might hurt because he's trying to pop your head like a zit, but it is much easier to find breathing/blood flow room.
Yeah, but the strong guy can still grab the little guy's arm and break his grip.

[JCavin]

We're delving into semantics here, I think.

My point was that, if the smaller guy is able to apply the choke/strangulation, and he's a smaller guy, you ain't gettin' that arm off your neck. It doesn't matter how strong you are, you'll most likely be unconcious before you are able to get him to release it.

But, like I said, I think we're delving into semantics and lots of hypotheticals. What if he gets it before he can fully apply it? How long does he have before he starts to black out, etc.

When I was grappling on a regular basic 3+ nights a week, it wasn't uncommon for me to submit guys twice my bodyweight. And yes, that includes the bodybuilders that came in. But, I guess we're talking about real "no-holds-barred" life or death combat situations. If I was forced to choose between skill in fighting and superior strength and size, I would honestly choose the skill. If all other things are equal, I think that skill and experience would provide me with the most beneficial odds for coming out on top.

Without trying to sound like an asshole, I recommend doing some training at a submission grappling school. Not just for the purpose of this conversation, but because most people have the deluded themselves into thinking that just because they watch UFC and wear TapOut and Affliction t-shirts that they are capable fighters. And because it is a hell of a lot of fun.

Now, what I will say is that in the absence of technique, I can't think of something i'd rather have than strength. Or a gun.

There is just so much that goes into real combat situations that it can't possibly be covered here on a message board using our fingertips. The best way to find out for sure is to train. You'll have a blast doing it to. Well, most likely. Especially if you happen to get paired up with a hot chick. :cool:

[misspelledgeoff]

my entire perspective on fighting and self-defense changed after 6 months of BJJ.



Without trying to sound like an asshole, I recommend doing some training at a submission grappling school. :cool:

[Raskolnikov]

When it comes to comparing only strength vs skill, skill is going to win every time. Can you imagine putting someone like Buakaw in the ring with Marius? Marius would be fucking destroyed, no question about it.

I don't see why this is even an issue. Granted, there will be times that those guys just get lucky, but there is a reason that experience is, and has always been, the best teacher.

Win in what way? If we are talking about Muay Thai rules, sure -- no way in hell he's going to stop Marius, but he'd have a good shot at out pointing him (assuming Marius doesn't catch him with anything substantial). But you are delusional if you think he'd last a single round in an MMA match. All Marius would have to do is get his hands on him.

You take a inhumanly strong and athletic 300lb man and put him in a ring (or on the street) against the most skilled 150 man on the planet, and 9/10 times that 300lb man ruins the smaller man's night.

[misspelledgeoff]

I have to agree with JCavin on this one. I don't know who this Bukake character is, but if Marcelo Garcia (170 ish) goes up against Marius in a post-apocalyptic death match then Garcia kills him 9 times out of 10.

At the most extreme levels of size, strength and skill, skill wins.


Win in what way? If we are talking about Muay Thai rules, sure -- no way in hell he's going to stop Marius, but he'd have a good shot at out pointing him (assuming Marius doesn't catch him with anything substantial). But you are delusional if you think he'd last a single round in an MMA match. All Marius would have to do is get his hands on him.

You take a inhumanly strong and athletic 300lb man and put him in a ring (or on the street) against the most skilled 150 man on the planet, and 9/10 times that 300lb man ruins the smaller man's night.

[Raskolnikov]

I'll admit that if we are talking about submissions, then yes, some knowledge of sub defense is needed (at least an ability to recognize when a sub is being applied). But put Lesner up against Penn and it won't be superior skill that wins Lesner the fight. Even using Marius as an example, if he manages to get hold of a guy like Penn, Penn is in some serious shit.

Regardless, I was responding to the comment about Bukake. He's a pure striker -- an absolutely sick one at that -- but unless Marius bends over and sticks out his chin and lets Bukake connect with a kick, he isn't going to stop Marius. And in a situation where Marius can use his strength to control Bukake (MMA or a regular old fight), Bukake is going to be in for a rough time.

[Sami]

Gorilla or a shark, who wins?

[milk farts]

I don't have experience fighting, but I just can't see why a 170 pounder would be able to kill a 300 pound strongman. I have attempted to explain the reasons why I think the strongman would win (see post #97 for a few) and the only explanation anyone has offered for why the fighter would win is because he might be able to get a choke hold that utilizes his skinny arms, and presumably the strongman would not be able to break out of it (really?).

If it is so obvious that skill trumps strength, then someone should be able to offer a coherent explanation as to why that is. In other words, what tactics is the fighter going to apply that the strongman has no answer for? What is the fighter's defense against being overpowered and pummeled?

[milk farts]

Gorilla or a shark, who wins?
Shark in water, Gorilla on land ldo. Unless it is a land shark.

[Sami]

Polar bear vs Grizzly bear?

[George Noble]

Land shark or sea gorilla, who wins?

Edit - the fight takes place in the sky, which should be obvious since it's neutral territory but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

[Raskolnikov]

For a less extreme example of what I'm trying to argue, take the Sapp/Big Nog fight. Big Nog eventually won the fight. However, Sapp didn't have any skill on the ground (especially considering it was his 2nd or 3rd mma fight, ever). None. Zero. Nog, on the other hand, was one of the best heavyweights in the world, and at his prime when they fought. And the strength and size difference between the two isn't even remotely as stark as the difference between Marius and a lightweight (only a 60 pound difference or so). And yet it took Nog almost the entire fight to stop Sapp. During the course of the fight, Sapp powered out of numerous sub attempts, beat the shit out of Nog, and dropped him on his head more than once (power bombed is a more appropriate term), any one of which would have put Nog in the hospital had it occurred on pavement. Watch the fight: take away the ring, who do you think walks away from that fight?

[milk farts]

Polar bears over grizzly bears because the former are on average 200 pounds heavier.

I imagine land sharks fare well in the water, and if sea gorillas are anything like sea monkeys then I would say it would be a stalemate in water. On land I would take the land shark b/c sea gorillas would dry up and die.

Damn, I just read your edit George. In that case I say sea gorillas b/c they are more likely to survive the fall than land sharks.

[misspelledgeoff]

From a striking perspective, we are in agreement. Marius bukake's Bukake.


I'll admit that if we are talking about submissions, then yes, some knowledge of sub defense is needed (at least an ability to recognize when a sub is being applied). But put Lesner up against Penn and it won't be superior skill that wins Lesner the fight. Even using Marius as an example, if he manages to get hold of a guy like Penn, Penn is in some serious shit.

Regardless, I was responding to the comment about Bukake. He's a pure striker -- an absolutely sick one at that -- but unless Marius bends over and sticks out his chin and lets Bukake connect with a kick, he isn't going to stop Marius. And in a situation where Marius can use his strength to control Bukake (MMA or a regular old fight), Bukake is going to be in for a rough time.

[misspelledgeoff]

Land Shark---of. fucking. course.

jesus


Land shark or sea gorilla, who wins?

Edit - the fight takes place in the sky, which should be obvious since it's neutral territory but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

[Raskolnikov]

Lol... I just realized I spelled Buakaw, "bukake." Freudian slip?

[George Noble]

Polar bears over grizzly bears because the former are on average 200 pounds heavier.

I imagine land sharks fare well in the water, and if sea gorillas are anything like sea monkeys then I would say it would be a stalemate in water. On land I would take the land shark b/c sea gorillas would dry up and die.

Damn, I just read your edit George. In that case I say sea gorillas b/c they are more likely to survive the fall than land sharks.
What fall? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy5QeBRu3JI)

[milk farts]

What fall? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy5QeBRu3JI)
Okay, I did a little research on sea gorillas and landsharks.

sea gorilla:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/thumb/3/3b/Screenshot_-_12_19_2008_%2C_4_52_23_PM.jpg/120px-Screenshot_-_12_19_2008_%2C_4_52_23_PM.jpg
For some reason my damn sea gorilla pic doesn't seem to be working. Just go to the "one piece wiki" and search "blue gorillas." They are called blue gorillas but they are very accomplished swimmers and attack Sea Kings for food supplies, which is why I imagine many people, including George, refer to them as sea gorillas.

landshark:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:plhbm6aCfUsnCM:http://www.me-thinks.com/pix/shark.jpg

Alright, if we assume that neither gets to use his/her/its weapon (not sure about sex here) and the fight takes place in a matrix-style atmosphere then I have to favor the landshark. Sea gorillas are mindless creatures (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Gorillas) and land sharks are very cunning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_shark). This means the landshark will have a deeper understanding of the matrix and will be able to rely on this to empower itself with greater strength/agility etc.

[PVC]

Andy Bolton or Bruce Lee?

(insert smiley laughing hysterically here)

[milk farts]

If my sources are correct, Bolton weighs ~370 and Lee weighed ~160 tops in his prime. I think this fight would consist of Lee running laps around Bolton, punching and kicking him while he tries to grab Lee. Bolton would have to keep from falling into the trap of chasing Lee and tiring out, which would mean pivoting in place and waiting to grab onto something. If Bolton could grab an arm or leg, then Lee is finished b/c Bolton's grip is not going to give. Then all Bolton has to do is grab with the other arm in the same spot and pound Lee against the ground like a sledgehammer. Bolton could also opt to grab Lee's throat with both hands once he is secure and crush Lee's throat. If Lee were to go for a choke from behind then Bolton could just bend over to flip him off or grab an arm and resort to said sledgehammer technique. (Bolton would have to be careful not to fall backward in an attempt to crush Lee, b/c Lee would easily get out of the way and begin kicking and kneeing Bolton in the head while he gets up.)

I say Bolton wins.

[taowave]

I agree that if Kimo didnt come in with the top knot,he may have won.
And if Kimo wasnt roided to the max,Royce would have tapped him out alot earlier..

Ill take skill and stamina first and foremost..I dont care how strong you are,if you gas easily,you are in big trouble


Sure, a powerlifter with zero training/experience will probably be hammered by a decent lightweight boxer, but that's a very hypothetical situation.
The thing is, that strength and skill aren't mutually exclusive. As you mention the gracies, lets take the Royce Gracie vs Kimo fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC8TJT3-4Hk) as an example.
Gracie is an extremely skilled fighter, but does very little strength training, if any, by his own admission. Kimo is notably stronger though, despite being less technically skilled, and it shows in the fight. While Gracie won, it was very close, and I have my suspicions that if Kimo had shaved his head and avoided the hair pulling, he may well have beaten Gracie. Gracie can barely stand after the fight, and clearly has very little left "in the tank".

No-one is denying that you need strength, stamina and skill to be successful, but to claim that skill is more important than the other two is a bit of a pointless argument.
I'm hardly someone to be giving Gracie training tips, but I still say that if he did more strength training, he'd be unbeatable, as opposed to merely almost unbeatable. ;)

[George Noble]

Andy Bolton or Bruce Lee?

(insert smiley laughing hysterically here)
I'll bet my house on the guy who isn't dead.

[milk farts]

Has anyone ever actually watched a match of a very skilled fighter vs. a very strong powerlifter/strongman? In the Mariuz fight the other guy was not very skilled, and also pretty large. None of the Gracies have ever fought powerlifters or strongmen to my knowledge, just fatties or less than stellar big men.

[Sami]

Has anyone ever actually watched a match of a very skilled fighter vs. a very strong powerlifter/strongman? In the Mariuz fight the other guy was not very skilled, and also pretty large. None of the Gracies have ever fought powerlifters or strongmen to my knowledge, just fatties or less than stellar big men.

150lbs BJJ fighter vs 250lbs bodybuilder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho2MUZBtAwM

[milk farts]

1) This was a bodybuilder, not a strongman or powerlifter
2) I think those weight figures weren't accurate
3) Looked like they called the fight early, notice how the bodybuilder guy was like wtf?
4) The BJJ fighter was wearing a gi, which artificially improves grip and can be used as a weapon
5) The fight was on the BJJ guy's home turf where he had full support
6) The video was edited in to make the BJJ guy look good

Typical Gracie school BS, their turf, their rules, they edit the tape, whatever it takes to look good. A Gracie would never fight a larger person who is a real athlete like Mariuz.

[Scrofula]

While I dislike BJJ propaganda videos, I will point out that the gi is an advantage for the opponent, and generally not for the person wearing it. There are a couple of things you can use your own gi for -- sleeve chokes and such -- but more often it's used against you.

[milk farts]

Are you sure about that Scrofula? I said the same thing to a guy I work with who trains in BJJ 3x/week (purple belt or something) and he said it's an advantage to the fighter.

I think the person who is less familiar with the gi is going to be at a disadvantage, regardless of who is wearing it. So for the BJJ guy, the more gis the better.

[rick0202]

most jujitsu schools have an open mat time
most boxing gyms are cheap and looking for sparring partners
mma schools are always open to sparring
just go there and tell them about your big lifts
and how strong you are and you want to fight them
any gym i have ever been in has stream of big guys coming in
i love lifting but get real
the worst is prum in thailand, some really tiny guys
just tool on you
bob sapps wiki list his weight as 340
i thought it was more
nogeria is listed at 231
a 109 pound difference
that surely does counter a lot of skill
so knowing how to fight is worth 100 pounds?
i tottaly fear the land shark by the way

[PVC]

Can someone please explain to me why the 150 lb guy won? The quality of the video is piss poor, and I'm watching it without audio. But from what I can see, the bodybuilder has the fighter pinned down for the majority of the video, and even though he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing in terms of fighting technique he still has the upper hand. Next thing you know the 150 lb fighter has "won" and is being hoisted up onto people's shoulders. What happened here?

[milk farts]

The BJJ fighter got an arm bar but I never saw the bodybuilder tap.

[Scrofula]

Are you sure about that Scrofula? I said the same thing to a guy I work with who trains in BJJ 3x/week (purple belt or something) and he said it's an advantage to the fighter.

I think the person who is less familiar with the gi is going to be at a disadvantage, regardless of who is wearing it. So for the BJJ guy, the more gis the better.
Yep, the gi is almost always a bigger advantage for the opponent. Apart from sleeve chokes (which hardly ever get used anyway) and a few desperate defensive moves (e.g. grab your own belt and pray), I can't think of any techniques that depend on your own gi. People without gis are harder to grip, therefore harder to control, therefore harder to submit. One thing a gi will buy you defensively is that they make it slightly harder to sink in a rear naked choke -- but at the cost of opening you up for a whole bunch of collar chokes. And even for the RNC, it's mainly your own sleeves that make it harder, so it's not too hard for a no-gi guy to choke a jacket guy.

I disagree that a fighter with no-gi experience is at a disadvantage if his opponent has a jacket. There's nothing a no-gi guy can't do because his opponent has a jacket on. The reverse isn't true: a whole bunch of jacket techniques don't work on someone without at least a shirt on. They say that a judoka's worst nightmare is being attacked by someone with no shirt :). (I'm mostly a gi person myself, but then again, I rarely get attacked by naked people.)

Now, if they actually switch roles -- the gi guy gives his jacket to the no-gi guy -- it's a massacre. The fighter with gi experience has all his offensive options handed back to him, and and can control the pace and distance. The no-gi guy doesn't really have any options taken away, but can't move as freely. (And he has fewer options to begin with.)

[Sami]

I don't really know much about fighting, that's just the only thing I found.

What I did think was hilarious is that the bodybuilder just can't help but through up some poses before the fight. He just can't help himself. :D

[drlvegas]

PS. Batman would totally beat Superman in a fight.

What about the Green Hornet?

[Platus]

I know practically nothing about fighting (except what I remember from karate class in elementary school) but I find the majority of youtube comments on MMA videos very interesting.

For instance, on a number of Mariusz Pudzianowski clips, many people were bemoaning the use of 'brute strength' and criticizing the lack of 'technique.' People seem to perceive a binary: both technique and strength/power are important, but somehow the former is virtuous, the latter is beastly. This seems ludicrous. Getting as strong as Pudzianowski requires (in addition to rare genetics) years of training.

Why is technical training regarded in higher esteem than strength training? They both take years of dedication and intelligent programming to obtain and it seems that they are both important to success?

It reminds me of the 'elderly martial arts master' stock character in Kung Fu movies - where life-long dedication to technique leads to spiritual and moral superiority that transcends such earthly things as physical strength. This is humbug.

[Bloodninja666]

Yep, the gi is almost always a bigger advantage for the opponent. Apart from sleeve chokes (which hardly ever get used anyway) and a few desperate defensive moves (e.g. grab your own belt and pray), I can't think of any techniques that depend on your own gi. People without gis are harder to grip, therefore harder to control, therefore harder to submit. One thing a gi will buy you defensively is that they make it slightly harder to sink in a rear naked choke -- but at the cost of opening you up for a whole bunch of collar chokes. And even for the RNC, it's mainly your own sleeves that make it harder, so it's not too hard for a no-gi guy to choke a jacket guy.

I disagree that a fighter with no-gi experience is at a disadvantage if his opponent has a jacket. There's nothing a no-gi guy can't do because his opponent has a jacket on. The reverse isn't true: a whole bunch of jacket techniques don't work on someone without at least a shirt on. They say that a judoka's worst nightmare is being attacked by someone with no shirt :). (I'm mostly a gi person myself, but then again, I rarely get attacked by naked people.)

Now, if they actually switch roles -- the gi guy gives his jacket to the no-gi guy -- it's a massacre. The fighter with gi experience has all his offensive options handed back to him, and and can control the pace and distance. The no-gi guy doesn't really have any options taken away, but can't move as freely. (And he has fewer options to begin with.)

I did not realize this. I remember those early UFC videos with the Gracies coming into the ring with their gis- I always assumed they were getting some utility out of it. I guess that just makes them all the more baller.

[Raskolnikov]

1) This was a bodybuilder, not a strongman or powerlifter
2) I think those weight figures weren't accurate
3) Looked like they called the fight early, notice how the bodybuilder guy was like wtf?
4) The BJJ fighter was wearing a gi, which artificially improves grip and can be used as a weapon
5) The fight was on the BJJ guy's home turf where he had full support
6) The video was edited in to make the BJJ guy look good

Typical Gracie school BS, their turf, their rules, they edit the tape, whatever it takes to look good. A Gracie would never fight a larger person who is a real athlete like Mariuz.

More importantly, the video shows that even a rather unremarkable 250lb bodybuilder has enough of a strength advantage to give an elite 150lb BJJ expert some trouble, certainly enough that the BJJ expert isn't a 100% lock for the win. Now replace that 250lb bodybuilder with a a guy like Marius, and replace that gym environment with the street. Even if you can slap on a triangle or arm bar, it ain't going to take much for a man that much bigger than you to pick you up and drop you on your head (as the Sapp/Nog fight demonstrates).

Skill doesn't trump strength 100% of the time. Strength can make up for a lack of skill just as skill can make up for a lack of strength -- it's not a black and white issue.

[milk farts]

Platus, anything that transcends earthly things like physical strength would be a supernatural power by definition, so I don't think anyone is going to argue with you on that one.

I agree that many people overlook the depth of analysis and mental toughness it takes to get strong throughout years of training. I think it takes a certain philosophy to be a great strongman or powerlifter too. You can't feel sorry for yourself or make excuses--you have to take full responsibility for your shortcomings so you can improve. You always have to push yourself to work as hard as possible and never cheat yourself, b/c out there somewhere there is another guy who isn't cheating himself who is going to beat you.

And I think we need to stop this Batman would kill Superman charade. Superman could kill Batman easily in many ways, the simplest and most efficient probably being by using his laser beam eyes.

Superman would also easily kill the Green Hornet, but Batman vs the Green Hornet is an interesting match-up. I'm afraid the subtle analysis necessary to make a conclusive argument regarding who would win is beyond me.

[Raskolnikov]

I did not realize this. I remember those early UFC videos with the Gracies coming into the ring with their gis- I always assumed they were getting some utility out of it. I guess that just makes them all the more baller.

Against an opponent with no ground skills, wearing a gi is, at worst, advantage neutral. It may be easier to hold on to a guy if he's wearing a gi, but in the early UFC days, guys like Royce weren't exactly trying to get "away" or "out" of anything. If your only defensive need on the ground is to tie a guy up so he can't punch you in the face, a gi isn't a disadvantage. Guys like Royce pulled guard so they could control bigger, stronger guys from the bottom and wearing a gi provides some help in controlling a sweaty and slippery wrestler. If you've no fear of a gi being used against you (i.e., your opponent doesn't know how to submit you), there's no disadvantage to wearing one.

[drlvegas]

Superman would also easily kill the Green Hornet.

Not a chance.

Former male model vs. one of the best and most innovative martial artists of all time. With weapons, Batman may have a shot.

This may require a new thread.

[Patrick]

Against an opponent with no ground skills, wearing a gi is, at worst, advantage neutral. It may be easier to hold on to a guy if he's wearing a gi, but in the early UFC days, guys like Royce weren't exactly trying to get "away" or "out" of anything. If your only defensive need on the ground is to tie a guy up so he can't punch you in the face, a gi isn't a disadvantage. Guys like Royce pulled guard so they could control bigger, stronger guys from the bottom and wearing a gi provides some help in controlling a sweaty and slippery wrestler. If you've no fear of a gi being used against you (i.e., your opponent doesn't know how to submit you), there's no disadvantage to wearing one.

The early UFC was anomalous in a million ways and I'm sure it wouldn't serve anyone to read them but Royce commented from the very beginning that one of the main functions of the gi in his UFC contests was to entice people to grab him. I'm not as dim as Raskolnikov on gis in contemporary MMA/grappling, but I'm damn nearly there -- and so the genius of Gracie's comment is somewhat impressive. The gi DOES let the opponent grip you better and he intuitively knows it so will attempt to use it to his advantage. But then... if you've never seen the inside of an active guard... it's not much of an advantage.

[Raskolnikov]

The early UFC was anomalous in a million ways and I'm sure it wouldn't serve anyone to read them but Royce commented from the very beginning that one of the main functions of the gi in his UFC contests was to entice people to grab him.

No shit it was anomalous. But my post was only concerned with the gis use in the early UFC, so I don't follow your point?


I'm not as dim as Raskolnikov on gis in contemporary MMA/grappling

I have no idea what this is about. I never even mentioned the gi in contemporary mma. I was responding to a post about the early days of the UFC.


The gi DOES let the opponent grip you better and he intuitively knows it so will attempt to use it to his advantage. But then... if you've never seen the inside of an active guard... it's not much of an advantage.

Hence my point. Royce's game was enticing guys into his guard (or pulling them into his guard) and submitting them. Wearing a gi helped him accomplish those ends because the guys he was fighting didn't know a damn thing about bjj. In contemporary mma, for obvious reasons, that strategy no longer works, which is why no one wears them anymore. My entire point was that Royce wore a gi because he felt it gave him an advantage, not because he was being hardcore (which was the gist of the post I was responding to).

[milk farts]

Not a chance.

Former male model vs. one of the best and most innovative martial artists of all time. With weapons, Batman may have a shot.

This may require a new thread.
As soon as Superman sees the Green Hornet he just has to fly right by him and punch him once in the face/torso and the Green Hornet will be dead.

[Patrick]

No shit it was anomalous. But my post was only concerned with the gis use in the early UFC, so I don't follow your point?

Wow, easy there tiger... I'm referring to the posts you've made in this thread regarding gis in contemporary fighting against skilled opponents. I didn't think I'd need to quote all of them to keep your undies out of a knot. I agree with almost all of your points... save the e-rage for later.

[Raskolnikov]

Wow, easy there tiger... I'm referring to the posts you've made in this thread regarding gis in contemporary fighting against skilled opponents. I didn't think I'd need to quote all of them to keep your undies out of a knot. I agree with almost all of your points... save the e-rage for later.

Sorry Patrick. I'm a bit grumpy and I completely misunderstood your post. My mistake.

[gzt]

Not a chance.

Former male model vs. one of the best and most innovative martial artists of all time. With weapons, Batman may have a shot.

This may require a new thread.
Dude, that was Kato, not the Green Hornet. The Green Hornet himself is not that interesting.

[rick0202]

+1

[Dastardly]

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1527/motherfuckerisone.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQJFv9SMSMQ)

[metermanja]

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1527/motherfuckerisone.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQJFv9SMSMQ)
wow, thats a beating.

the wannabe gangsta says - "bring the emblems" lol!!!

[Bloodninja666]

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1527/motherfuckerisone.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQJFv9SMSMQ)

This is worthy of its own thread.

[Dastardly]

To me it seemed like the old guy was almost baiting the black guy. We didnt catch the full conversation about the shoe shine, so there is a chance he said something mildy racist to get him angry.

But he then gave every chance for it to be settled and over, even leaving to sit at the front.

Something tells me beardman "I am motherfucker" knew the black guy would come to him and start a fight and he was totally expecting it. Like he is confident in his fighting ability and just baits aggressive thuggish men like this to teach them a lesson.

heres an extra link if the first one gets removed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQJFv9SMSMQ

[metermanja]

the old guy looks old enough to have seen both Korea and Vietnam.
anyhow, epic line at the end -

Bring the M&Ms

[Dastardly]

Well I guess it is s good lesson for us, being prepared is really worth it.

A strong guy approaching 70 who can throw a punch can take an average street thug quite easily.

Here is the aftermath, (mr motherfucker really does seem crazy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs9pAIkdlqo

[Sami]

I don't know why the vid keeps getting kicked off youtube, but here's another link:

http://www.snotr.com/video/3965

[Raskolnikov]

Fuck. The old man is batshit crazy but the other guy sure as hell bit off more than he could chew. I think I'd exit the bus and walk home after getting my ass handed to me like that... talk about embarrassing.

[cjangelo]

Say it again! Say it again, Pinky! Beat his white ass!

My favorite part.

AC Bus as in 'Atlantic City?' Never got that straightened out.

[bowdirk]

AC Transit as in Alameda - Contra Costa County Transit, serving Oakland, CA and the Raider Nation, of which Epic Beard Man (EBM) is clearly one.

It seems this video has gone completely off the charts in views, making EBM the new king of the interwebz.

oh jeez, he is on facebook, become a fan!

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Epic-Beard-Man/308927103140?v=wall


-Bowdirk

[BigJavs]

Don't doubt Old Man Strength...especially a crazy one.

[cjangelo]

yeah, this has less to do with the 'Dad Strength' phenomenon and more to do with corroborating what we all already know instinctually: Everybody's a Tough Guy until they meet a Crazy Guy.

[LondonTiger]

most jujitsu schools have an open mat time
most boxing gyms are cheap and looking for sparring partners
mma schools are always open to sparring
just go there and tell them about your big lifts
and how strong you are and you want to fight them
any gym i have ever been in has stream of big guys coming in
i love lifting but get real
the worst is prum in thailand, some really tiny guys
just tool on you
bob sapps wiki list his weight as 340
i thought it was more
nogeria is listed at 231
a 109 pound difference
that surely does counter a lot of skill
so knowing how to fight is worth 100 pounds?
i tottaly fear the land shark by the way

thanks for talking sense.

I do muay thai and strength training, i weigh 87kg, with 16% bf

I'm pretty sure my 60kg coach whose 5 inches shorter than me, could beat the fuck out of me in a fight.

guys get real, dont be so one dimensional. You can't beat a professional fighter with your strenth alone, you don't evn know how to set up your ccombos, let alone throw and effective punch.

however i will sway this, the mosg rounded person will win in a fight, a strength athlete with purple belt in BJJ and a good pro boxing record would beat a BJJ only blackbelt with nothing else.

Matt Hughes beat royce gracie becauee he had wrestling, some bjj and better standup.

Just strength alone, don't be silly.

[Sal Webber]

Wow!
When the old guy stood up did it look like he probably outweighed the young guy by at least 75 lbs and he looked to be about 8 inches taller?

By the way the young guy acted, I don't think it's the first time he's had his ass handed to him.

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

That was a great video! Don't fuck with an old Marine, or you might need an ambalamps. :D

[Gwynn]

Epic Beard Guy has a history:

"Back in 1996, I was working at the intersection of 2nd & Market. Each and every day the man pictured above would walk by my shop, wave a loaf of sourdough in my face, and scream obscenities about the San Francisco 49'ers."

http://www.flickr.com/photos/troyholden/4364045941/

[metermanja]

That was a great video! Don't fuck with an old Marine, or you might need an ambalamps. :D

its M&M's

I still cant get over the black guy saying - "Bring the M&M's"

[Gary Gibson]

If only the black dude had known Karate or something...

[metermanja]

epic beard guy tazed by cops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URYXWWRrArQ

man, EBG is going to be some kind of god soon.

[Colliflower]

To me it seemed
...
heres an extra link if the first one gets removed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQJFv9SMSMQ

He should have just shined his shoes..

[misspelledgeoff]

Sweet Baby Jeebus ona Big Wheel...were those teeth on the floor of the bus?

[Dastardly]

http://iamamotherfucker.com/

[taowave]

This should put an end to the discussion as Sylvia came in out of shape after a long layoff


Tim Sylvia crashed Mariusz Pudzianowski’s party on Friday, forcing the Polish strongman to tap to strikes in the second round atop a surprisingly eventful “Moosin: God of Martial Arts” pay-per-view.

Central Massachusetts took on the atmosphere of Warsaw as the charismatic Pudzianowski, five-time World’s Strongest Man, attracted throngs of screaming Poles to the DCU Center in Worcester. To dueling chants of “Pudzia!” and “USA!,” the barrel-chested, 273-pound Pudzianowski took down the former UFC heavyweight champion in the opening moments of the super heavyweight fight. In doing so, Pudzianowski almost blew the roof off the place, but he suffered a cut to the top of his head in the fracas.

Sylvia, who weighed in at 305 pounds for the fight, began connecting with punches and knees down the stretch. He came out strong in the second round, putting knees on a gassed Pudzianowski. The bout then hit the mat, where Sylvia worked minor strikes from side control that caused Pudzianowski to tap and leave supporters deflated.

Pudzianowski, who suffered his first pro MMA loss after two successful outings, exited the cage without granting a post-fight interview.





thanks for talking sense.

I do muay thai and strength training, i weigh 87kg, with 16% bf

I'm pretty sure my 60kg coach whose 5 inches shorter than me, could beat the fuck out of me in a fight.

guys get real, dont be so one dimensional. You can't beat a professional fighter with your strenth alone, you don't evn know how to set up your ccombos, let alone throw and effective punch.

however i will sway this, the mosg rounded person will win in a fight, a strength athlete with purple belt in BJJ and a good pro boxing record would beat a BJJ only blackbelt with nothing else.

Matt Hughes beat royce gracie becauee he had wrestling, some bjj and better standup.

Just strength alone, don't be silly.

[Raskolnikov]

Sigh. The discussion was never as black and white as London would have you believe in the above quote. It wasn't "strength alone" that was at issue. Strength, like skill, is a factor. Superior strenght can make up for a lack of skill (to a degree), and superior skill can make up for a lack of strength (to a degree). Case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWM9S-1JB18

Ernesto Hoost -- mulitple K-1 GP championships -- gets beat down by Bob Sapp (twice, actually). Guess what advantage Sapp had in that fight? (Hint: it wasn't skill.)

And no one should be shocked that Pudz couldn't compete with a guy who a) out classed him skill-wise, b) out classed him experience wise, c) out weighed him, d) had a huge reach and height advantage, and e) had the gas tank to go more than 2 minutes. He had a lot going against him in that fight, not just a skill deficit.

[taowave]

Strength is a factor,but a distant one to conditioning and skill...

Sure Sapp beat Hoost in standup,but I sincerely doubt Sapp gets past BJJ brown belts 190 and above if allowed to go to the ground..



It’s easy to root for Mariusz Pudzianowski when the opposition is Tim Sylvia, an apathetic former UFC champion who now ambles into a cage north of 300 pounds and refers to himself as a “legend” without a hint of irony.

Despite the goodwill of the crowd, Pudzianowski’s appeal as an X factor in MMA came to a gruesome end Friday when Sylvia made quick and honest work of him during Moosin’s first pay-per-view venture. Pudzianowski cannot box, cannot wrestle, and cannot tolerate the acidic build-up of clinching in a fight: he literally turned fuchsia as his body began to revolt at the request for a new kind of physical effort. Tapping in the second round was less about Sylvia’s rubbery strikes than his complete lack of oxygen. Had this fight been held in Colorado, he may have actually exploded.

There are people who gave Pudzianowski a chance in MMA: “he’s so strong,” they said. And he is, but not in a way that holds any real meaning for the sport. A seasoned kickboxer will strike with more impact because they know how. As an added bonus, they won’t look sunburned after two minutes of effort. While much has been made of Pudzianowski’s power, I maintain that most professionals would rather suffer his attack than Pedro Rizzo’s.

If Pudzianowski’s status as a sideshow had been more carefully protected, promoters probably could have milked him for a few more bouts. (Pudziankowski vs. Gary Goodridge, Ken Shamrock, Herschel Walker -- it’s a long list.) After three fights, it should be a dead issue. I’m surprised it took this long.






Sigh. The discussion was never as black and white as London would have you believe in the above quote. It wasn't "strength alone" that was at issue. Strength, like skill, is a factor. Superior strenght can make up for a lack of skill (to a degree), and superior skill can make up for a lack of strength (to a degree). Case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWM9S-1JB18

Ernesto Hoost -- mulitple K-1 GP championships -- gets beat down by Bob Sapp (twice, actually). Guess what advantage Sapp had in that fight? (Hint: it wasn't skill.)

And no one should be shocked that Pudz couldn't compete with a guy who a) out classed him skill-wise, b) out classed him experience wise, c) out weighed him, d) had a huge reach and height advantage, and e) had the gas tank to go more than 2 minutes. He had a lot going against him in that fight, not just a skill deficit.

[misspelledgeoff]

O Rly!?

Do you train BJJ? Ever grappled with a man who outweighs you by 150+ pounds?


Strength is a factor,but a distant one to conditioning and skill...

Sure Sapp beat Hoost in standup,but I sincerely doubt Sapp gets past BJJ brown belts 190 and above if allowed to go to the ground..

[taowave]

I have trained in BJJ and was tapping out guys 100 pounds heavier..
Could I tap out Sapp?? NOPE:)





O Rly!?

Do you train BJJ? Ever grappled with a man who outweighs you by 150+ pounds?

[Raskolnikov]

Strength is a factor,but a distant one to conditioning and skill...

Sure Sapp beat Hoost in standup,but I sincerely doubt Sapp gets past BJJ brown belts 190 and above if allowed to go to the ground..


Check out how much trouble Sapp gave Big Nog, whom he outweighed by less than 100lbs, on the ground. Now imagine that fight happening on pavement somewhere, and I think you'll have to admit that strength is more than just a "distant" factor. However -- and this is a big however -- I totally agree that skill has to be the priority when it comes to competitive fighting. But lets not act like strength isn't a factor. Leave that for the TMA guys...

[Raskolnikov]

Could I tap out Sapp?? NOPE:)

Why not? Is it because he has a better ground game then you?

[msingh]

In this case Conditioning > Strength.

[ColoWayno]

I wish I would have been paying attention to this stuff back then...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/2000/wrestling/news/2000/09/27/gardner_upset_ap/

I think the Russian cursed him at the end of the match since he subsequently lost a toe to frostbite after being stranded on a snowmobile and at another time had to swim for an hour in 43 degree water and spend the night outdoors after a small plane crashed.

[kevintrangone]

Yep, the gi is almost always a bigger advantage for the opponent. Apart from sleeve chokes (which hardly ever get used anyway) and a few desperate defensive moves (e.g. grab your own belt and pray), I can't think of any techniques that depend on your own gi. People without gis are harder to grip, therefore harder to control, therefore harder to submit. One thing a gi will buy you defensively is that they make it slightly harder to sink in a rear naked choke -- but at the cost of opening you up for a whole bunch of collar chokes. And even for the RNC, it's mainly your own sleeves that make it harder, so it's not too hard for a no-gi guy to choke a jacket guy.

I disagree that a fighter with no-gi experience is at a disadvantage if his opponent has a jacket. There's nothing a no-gi guy can't do because his opponent has a jacket on. The reverse isn't true: a whole bunch of jacket techniques don't work on someone without at least a shirt on. They say that a judoka's worst nightmare is being attacked by someone with no shirt :). (I'm mostly a gi person myself, but then again, I rarely get attacked by naked people.)

Now, if they actually switch roles -- the gi guy gives his jacket to the no-gi guy -- it's a massacre. The fighter with gi experience has all his offensive options handed back to him, and and can control the pace and distance. The no-gi guy doesn't really have any options taken away, but can't move as freely. (And he has fewer options to begin with.)

I've been choked many times by the gi's of my opponents.

[LondonTiger]

heh.. this tread is still going round.. anyone see marius pudzi fight tim sylvia.. thats really an example of technique over strength uf there ever was one..

[taowave]

We are on the same page and I 100% agree...The street fight on hard surfaces adds a totally new dimension..For that very reason,I give the Judo player the edge as an effective fighting method on the street..Imagine gettting getting caught in any hip throw where I believe velocity reaches up to 90 mph..

I think strength is essential,and all things equal the stronger fighter obviously wins.Its hard to quantify the acceptable tradeoff between strength and skill,but either way one must condition to go the distance..



Check out how much trouble Sapp gave Big Nog, whom he outweighed by less than 100lbs, on the ground. Now imagine that fight happening on pavement somewhere, and I think you'll have to admit that strength is more than just a "distant" factor. However -- and this is a big however -- I totally agree that skill has to be the priority when it comes to competitive fighting. But lets not act like strength isn't a factor. Leave that for the TMA guys...

[kevintrangone]

The "tradeoff" was implemented by this thread. You can certainly be both, GSP is an example of that.

[Raskolnikov]

I think strength is essential,and all things equal the stronger fighter obviously wins.Its hard to quantify the acceptable tradeoff between strength and skill,but either way one must condition to go the distance..

Excellent point. I'm of the opinion that strength should be sought to the degree that it doesn't interfere with the acquisition of necessary skill. And as far as conditioning goes, absolutely, nothing kills a fighter's ability to demonstrate skill and strength than an empty gas tank (hello BJ Penn).

[taowave]

Kevin,I would think almost every successful fighter in MMA is skilled as well as strong.The question really comes down to what is the "minimum" Skill/Strength ratio that one can succeed with..





The "tradeoff" was implemented by this thread. You can certainly be both, GSP is an example of that.

[taowave]

Rip and others would know this,but I would think there has to be some optimal mix of slow twitch vs fast twitch training as well..Perhaps that falls under conditioning??

BJ is a very good example,and to make matters worse he wasnt content to stick to his weight class.Stepping up in weight to take on guys like St Pierre who naturally weighs in at 200 is a very bad idea






Excellent point. I'm of the opinion that strength should be sought to the degree that it doesn't interfere with the acquisition of necessary skill. And as far as conditioning goes, absolutely, nothing kills a fighter's ability to demonstrate skill and strength than an empty gas tank (hello BJ Penn).

[Raskolnikov]

Rip and others would know this,but I would think there has to be some optimal mix of slow twitch vs fast twitch training as well..Perhaps that falls under conditioning??

This is me mostly talking out of my ass -- because I've never trained anyone, let alone a fighter -- but, in my opinion, fighters would probably be best served keeping things in the weight room very simple and training conditioning in a very specific way. For instance, focus on getting strong as hell on something like squats, deadlifts, push press, and chins/pull-ups (and that's it), keeping reps low and the weight heavy. Then for conditioning, maybe do complexes, jump rope, heavy bag, etc., etc. for timed rounds. (Kevin Randleman apparently used to do the "Bear" complex with 205, and he went the distance in Pride with that crazy 10min first round they had without gassing, despite being pretty damn big and strong as all hell.)


BJ is a very good example,and to make matters worse he wasnt content to stick to his weight class.Stepping up in weight to take on guys like St Pierre who naturally weighs in at 200 is a very bad idea

Not to mention the Hughes fight (the second fight). A perfect example, by the way, of the importance of strength. BJ has some of the best take down defense, striking, and BJJ in the entire game and he got roughed up by an aging Matt Hughes purely because Hughes' superior size and strength enabled him to control BJ.

[kevintrangone]

Kevin,I would think almost every successful fighter in MMA is skilled as well as strong.The question really comes down to what is the "minimum" Skill/Strength ratio that one can succeed with..

Four.

I'm going to make an attempt to actually address the question. As said before, it isn't a black and white issue. There are guys who come into the BJJ school I train at without experience that I, with three years of experience, have a hard time handling. My instructor, who has been training for more than ten years handles these people very well. He has impressive technique, flexibility, experience, and weighs 30 pounds less than I do.

I've rolled strong, inexperienced people and shit on them in terms of body position. They've also muscled out of RNCs and armbars in the same rounds. I've also rolled with strong, inexperienced people and got stuck. Shit happens I suppose. In my opinion, someone with experience might lose the initial armbar or choke, but can successfully transition to other positions using less energy than the strongman to open up more options.

When it comes to battling on the street, we've been taught a few things. They aren't "techniques" per se, rather, just information that should be common sense:

Go HARD, but remember your training.
Don't pull guard. It's a surefire route to a slam.
Don't go to the ground unless you absolutely have to.
Going to the ground against multiple opponents is dumb.
Run whenever possible.
Try to avoid these situations at all costs.

I left out our "self defense" techniques, as they have little to do with my message.

"All other things being equal" is a shitty assumption to make.

[drlvegas]

Go HARD, but remember your training.
Don't pull guard. It's a surefire route to a slam.
Don't go to the ground unless you absolutely have to.
Going to the ground against multiple opponents is dumb.
Run whenever possible.
Try to avoid these situations at all costs.

I left out our "self defense" techniques, as they have little to do with my message.

"All other things being equal" is a shitty assumption to make.

All good advice. Sounds a lot like what we hear at Krav Maga.

All other things are never equal.

Everything counts.

The title of the thread is "Fights"--please post some of the "self defense" techniques.

Sounds like you have attend a very good instructor--sometimes instructors are so entrenched in their own discipline, they are not open to other potentially useful ideas.

[kevintrangone]

It's rather difficult to type out the techniques, so I'll just give the basic scenarios.

Basic haymaker block to clinch, hip toss, taking the back to choke or 2-on-1 grip and drag them to the ground.

Throwing a jab as a distraction to shoot for the legs.

Breaking fingers when someone puts their hands around your throat from the front.

Tosses when choked from behind.

etc etc etc.

my instructor is Mike Mrkulic. the school's website is www.mbjj.com (http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/www.mbjj.com).

[MDR2]

I am a big fan of tradition chinese martial arts and a big fan of strength training. For whatever reason MA and strength seem to go together (figure it out).

But anyway, modern Traditional Martial Artist talk about strength not being important and technique being all that matters. Well from my understanding and from all I have read about the topic, getting strong was a priority in Tradition Chinese MA. I don't know where the disconnect happened that modern traditionalist forgot about strength.

Strength is so easy to improve to the point that you will be stronger than most people you will encounter that it should be manditory to do so. I don't understand why people see it as one or the other. Someone can get very strong working out 6 hours a week. Why not simpy add that to martial arts training? Remember in this field, we CAN have our cake and eat it too. Why not be damn good and damn strong?

[Gwynn]

But anyway, modern Traditional Martial Artist talk about strength not being important and technique being all that matters.

This statement can mean more than one thing. Context is important.
When teaching beginners, it's important that they realize that if they muscle their way into a technique, they will fail as soon as someone is stronger than they are. They need to learn how to achieve structure, superior positioning, how to off-balance an opponent, and timing and distance. That's more than enough to be getting on with in class. There's plenty of great ways to improve strength and conditioning that can be done outside of class.
So a teacher will often talk about technique being more important than strength. It's not a statement of Ultimate Reality.

[taowave]

All things equal is not a shitty assumption to make.Unless you want unlimited permutations and combinations,one must limit the number of variables to input into an equation.

I like your street fighting principles,especially options 5 and 6.

Options 2,3,4 are some of the reasons I give a competent Muay Thai or Judoka the edge for street self defense..

BTW,thats not a knock on BJJ(which I trained in).



Four.

I'm going to make an attempt to actually address the question. As said before, it isn't a black and white issue. There are guys who come into the BJJ school I train at without experience that I, with three years of experience, have a hard time handling. My instructor, who has been training for more than ten years handles these people very well. He has impressive technique, flexibility, experience, and weighs 30 pounds less than I do.

I've rolled strong, inexperienced people and shit on them in terms of body position. They've also muscled out of RNCs and armbars in the same rounds. I've also rolled with strong, inexperienced people and got stuck. Shit happens I suppose. In my opinion, someone with experience might lose the initial armbar or choke, but can successfully transition to other positions using less energy than the strongman to open up more options.

When it comes to battling on the street, we've been taught a few things. They aren't "techniques" per se, rather, just information that should be common sense:

Go HARD, but remember your training.
Don't pull guard. It's a surefire route to a slam.
Don't go to the ground unless you absolutely have to.
Going to the ground against multiple opponents is dumb.
Run whenever possible.
Try to avoid these situations at all costs.

I left out our "self defense" techniques, as they have little to do with my message.

"All other things being equal" is a shitty assumption to make.

[taowave]

I have trained and lived in Japan for some time and found the traditional Japaneese arts to certainly have a strength element.One could argue that Aikido is certainly not based on strength,but if there is no randori/competition,I personally feel the art is not a fighting art.

Look at the Kyokushin style of karate,which is billed as the "Strongest Karate"..If you have ever been to the Kodokan,you will see some VERY VERY strong judokas..I dont think its possible to train in Judo and not be strong..









I am a big fan of tradition chinese martial arts and a big fan of strength training. For whatever reason MA and strength seem to go together (figure it out).

But anyway, modern Traditional Martial Artist talk about strength not being important and technique being all that matters. Well from my understanding and from all I have read about the topic, getting strong was a priority in Tradition Chinese MA. I don't know where the disconnect happened that modern traditionalist forgot about strength.

Strength is so easy to improve to the point that you will be stronger than most people you will encounter that it should be manditory to do so. I don't understand why people see it as one or the other. Someone can get very strong working out 6 hours a week. Why not simpy add that to martial arts training? Remember in this field, we CAN have our cake and eat it too. Why not be damn good and damn strong?

[MDR2]

That's a good point Gwynn. Let me clarify. I agree that for teaching beginners it is important to focus on technique. However it seems this mind set becomes perminent, which is the problem. This has lead us to the current problem of thinking strength is never needed.

On another point, Rip comments how if a lift has bad form (technique) the lifter can still complete it if they are strong enough to simply power through it. I see no reason the same concept cannot be applied to martial arts technique.

[Peter_k]

This is slightly OT from the question about training to fight, but I'm just curious. Anybody here ever got seriously hammered in a fight - as in broken jaw, smashed nose, teeth falling out, etc?

The few fights I've been in have involved swinging wildly and landing most punches on the side of the skull as a result (not right in the chin or nose). I've had a few black eyes but never broke teeth or anything like that.

Most of the times I've seen people get seriously fucked up is when a) they were sucker punched or b) they got kicked in the face on the ground.

I think people underestimate how hard it is to accurately hit someone hard in a one-on-one standup fight where you don't surprise the guy. That's more important than raw strength or power, IMO.

[cervicornis]

I've been in one real fight in my life, freshman year of college with a jackass that lived in the same dorm as me. I saw the punch coming and thought I would duck it, but I ended up with a broken eye socket, a trip to the ER, and 3 months of double vision. The guy wasn't very big or strong, but man his fist connected with my head in just the right way. Still have a nice scar over my left eye that reminds me to avoid a fight, if at all possible.

[Gwynn]

That's a good point Gwynn. Let me clarify. I agree that for teaching beginners it is important to focus on technique. However it seems this mind set becomes perminent, which is the problem. This has lead us to the current problem of thinking strength is never needed.


Well, I only train Japanese arts, not Chinese so I can't speak from direct experience there, but my SO is a Wing Chun teacher and he says they have a saying "Courage, Strength, Skill," implying that they value both courage and strength above skill. His top student is built like a fireplug.

I think your generalization about what traditional Chinese martial artists say does those styles a great disservice. It is much better to speak from your own experience and leave it at that than to apply your own experience to Chinese martial arts in general.

[MDR2]

I agree with your SO. I would have liked for my Wing Chun teacher to have had the same saying.

I am not trying to generalize about all tradition Chinese martial artist, even though I seem to have done just that. I am only talking about the teachers who have fallen for the anti-strength myth. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

[Squatson]

http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/sports-training/strength-training-and-a-ufc-fighter/

Guess who won the fight...

Oh yeah, the guy that was deadlifting heavy.

"Techniques can be learned, but it takes exceptional power and strength to perform maneuvers on another of similar size and strength in a competitive setting” - Mike Van Arsdale

[LondonTiger]

http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/sports-training/strength-training-and-a-ufc-fighter/

Guess who won the fight...

Oh yeah, the guy that was deadlifting heavy.

"Techniques can be learned, but it takes exceptional power and strength to perform maneuvers on another of similar size and strength in a competitive setting” - Mike Van Arsdale

Nice, good article.. I wish fighters would disclose how much they lift and how their programaming is like. Actually same applies to all professional athletes, they don't like disclosing these stuff.

[LondonTiger]

Although, I think you're downplaying rashads other skillsets if you're riding his victory on his strength training.. his boxing, natural athleticism and wrestling for instance.

Look at supermario vs tim silvia for example.. A canned MMA fighter vs a worlds strongest winner.. guess who won?

[Squatson]

So the power cleans slowed him down?

[LondonTiger]

So the power cleans slowed him down?

you've added 2 + 2, and ended up with 5.

[Squatson]

That is synergy my friend.

[ThatGuy]

http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/sports-training/strength-training-and-a-ufc-fighter/

Guess who won the fight...

Oh yeah, the guy that was deadlifting heavy.

"Techniques can be learned, but it takes exceptional power and strength to perform maneuvers on another of similar size and strength in a competitive setting” - Mike Van Arsdale

I'm glad you posted that, that's really interesting.