Definition of a Man

[jameson]

My dad worked pig farms and sold firewood before he married. Then, for 20+ years, he farmed trees and worked hard labor. He had, and still has, a thick mustache. He, during his prime, would be what you would all consider 70’s BIG. And he would be considered a man’s man. So would his father before him. It wasn’t long ago that the world as I know it was full of these men, but now I look around and find it hard to find a male that I would call a man. Whether it’s the skinny-fat married guy with a kid strapped to his back and a morose look on his face or the skinny jean wearing kid who looks like his sister, I have a hard time defining them as men. Men should be masculine, virile, MANLY, not hollowed out versions of themselves or mirror images of their female counterparts. How did this happen? This decline of manliness may have started in the 50’s and 60’s when women started entering the workplace, when over the course of decades, historically understood roles became blurred, and men began questioning (or forgetting) their place in society. Women in the workplace are a good thing – what I’m saying is that men began to forget how to be men when they began sharing responsibilities with women. It’s our fault that we’ve become less manly – not women’s. If there is a fault of women, it’s allowing men to fall to the depths they’ve fallen. And honestly, this isn’t really even a fault. Men now understand that women are just as capable and therefore allow women to take on their responsibilities as men. Every married man knows what I’m talking about – women very often take a leading role in most marriages whether their own or their friends. Men shirk their responsibilities and women are forced to take the lead. More women should put the onus back on men – trust me, a real man can handle it. It’s like throwing your kid in the pool to sink or swim. Women, you need to allow your men to sink or swim – real men will swim. And guys if you have testicles, you have the opportunity to become real men. Men, you owe it to your sons to be a better man. You owe it to your daughters to show her what a real man looks like – that way she might bring home a boy more like you. Actions always speak louder than words – know what I mean?

So you might ask, well if women are just as capable, why not just leave things alone? Look around you! Women are stressed out with all the responsibility that’s been placed on their shoulders and men are close to worthless! Is that a good enough reason? Women, look back to what I wrote about men “allow women to take on their responsibility.” What happened to women’s rights? Men didn't just give you voting rights, etc. They handed over their responsiblities and roles in society as well. I don’t think that’s a right – it’s a travesty. Who wouldn’t want less responsibility? That’s why men handed it over, but in the process men just became males. And you know how society defines males don’t ya? That’s another problem altogether.

Our culture/media/society today has emasculated men. Women used to shop for their men at Sear’s. Now men find just as much joy shopping with their wives at Express and Banana Republic. Men’s grooming product sales were $19.7 billion and are expected to rise 6% yearly. What happened to soap, deodorant, and aftershave? A man should know how to clean himself, but this is getting absurd. How many of you can clean a rifle? Who has ever chopped firewood? You know what I’m getting at here. We’ve allowed ourselves to become more like women. Last I checked, I have balls. I’m keeping ‘em.

Now I understand a lot of you guys here are young and much of the marital stuff doesn't apply. You owe it to yourselves and future generations to turn around this tide of events. Be courageous, step outside of the mainstream of shaved chests, six pack abs, and perfect hair. Are some of you proud to be called a metrosexual? Or Emo? Really? Wouldn’t you rather be called a MAN?! And if none of this applies to you, then do someone else a favor who is suffering from this unmanly condition. We must pass on our traditions of manliness so that all can hear the good word.

Just remember: Part of the process of becoming 70’s BIG is becoming a man first.

A little homework: Tell us your definition of manliness, and then tell us how you stack up to it. Think about a man you admire, and do a comparison. What could you improve?

I’ll go first. A man should be self-sufficient yet accept the help and encouragement of others. A man should respect himself and others, have good morals and values, match his words with his actions, help others in need, work hard, support his family, respect his parents, learn from his mistakes, and be STRONG in all aspects. There is a much wider list of manly qualities, and I ask that you contribute to this list. As you write, think about how you stack up to your expectations of what a man should be.

That is all.

[JCavin]

I actually wholeheartedly agree with you on most of your points, especially the fucking grooming shit. It reminded me of the comedian Russell Peters and what he had to say about it. Funny shit.

It just blows my mind to see so many guys that shave their body hair for no other reason than they saw someone on tv do it. Fags.

It gets the anger sharks swimming in my head.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

I think another thing is that "doing things" has been replaced with "having things". Too many men I know brag about what they have bought or own; tv, stereo, car, etc, instead of bragging about what they do with what they own; awesome movie night, lap times/off roading.

We need to get back to being proud about what we do

Weight lifted > six pack
Speed driven > car owned
Equipment hauled/stumps ripped > truck owned
Entertaining friends/family > big tv
writing software > awesome computer
fixing cars > garage full of tools
making tasty bbq/steaks > weber grill

[JCavin]

We need to get back to being proud about what we do

Weight lifted > six pack
Speed driven > car owned
Equipment hauled/stumps ripped > truck owned
Entertaining friends/family > big tv
writing software > awesome computer
fixing cars > garage full of tools
making tasty bbq/steaks > weber grill

Chest hair sticking out of collar > Chest hair shaved/naired in shower
Stains on athletic shorts > Brand and scent of athletic shorts
Fucking lifting heavy w/ humility > Lifting anything w/o it

[homerj742]

George Carlin had a bit about "the pussification of the american male".

[Paul Sousa]

http://blog.cleveland.com/sun/intermission_impact/2009/01/large_Clint_Eastwood_Gran_Torino.jpg

Gran Torino should be required viewing for any male once he becomes a teen.

[JCavin]

Only a man could drink PBR.

[matclone]

This decline of manliness may have started in the 50’s and 60’s when women started entering the workplace, when over the course of decades, historically understood roles became blurred, and men began questioning (or forgetting) their place in society.

My definition of a man includes not been afraid of women, including their presence in the work place. While it's nice to long for the past, and some good things lost, and most of us naturally do, the world is changing whether we like it or not. Part of being a functional human being is adapting to change.

[JCavin]

My definition of a man includes not been afraid of women, including their presence in the work place. While it's nice to long for the past, and some good things lost, and most of us naturally do, the world is changing whether we like it or not. Part of being a functional human being is adapting to change.

Did you even read the next sentence?

You've completely missed the point of the entire post.

No one said anything about being afraid of women. In fact, it says having women in the workplace is a good thing.

The problem(as he stated it) is that the Men have allowed women to take on too much responsibility. In essence, we became pussies and now the responsibility level has shifted way past the "even" area. Instead of sharing the responsibilities, we've relinquished them.

[matclone]

You're right, Cavin. Taken literally, he said nothing about being afraid of women or that they shouldn't be in the workplace. However, there is a whole lot implied. For example, when he grouses that men have abdicated their responsibilities to women, those responsibilities are not really defined. I don't see what the problem is. If I want to wear my hair long (I don't) or go shopping at the Banana Republic (I won't), I really don't care if someone thinks it's "manly" or not. This sort of rant about manhood all adds up to some level of insecurity to me. Sorry. I guess my definition of a man includes being yourself and not worrying a great deal about what others think.

[Bloodninja666]

Only a man could drink PBR.

It's unfortunate, but a trip to Williamsburg or Portland would change your mind about the truth of this statement.

[JCavin]

I think you've read too much into a harmless post that wasn't meant to be taken so seriously.

I doubt it was meant to be the next article in the Lumberjack magazine or something.

Then again, maybe it was, lol. Doubt it though. Most likely meant to be a comical way to tell people to stop being pussies.

[JCavin]

It's unfortunate, but a trip to Williamsburg or Portland would change your mind about the truth of this statement.

Ewww...

[matclone]

I thought PBR was from Milwaukee. No? Back in the day (the 70s) in the old home town, it was considered one of the best, along with Schlitz and Bud. "I want to say one word to you...Just one word. Marketing."

[matclone]

I doubt it was meant to be the next article in the Lumberjack magazine or something.



Good one. Yeah, I could be taking it too seriously, but when someone invites me to be angry about something for which there is no evident problem, my skepticism tends to rise.

[nisora33]

You're right, Cavin. Taken literally, he said nothing about being afraid of women or that they shouldn't be in the workplace. However, there is a whole lot implied. For example, when he grouses that men have abdicated their responsibilties to women, those responsibilities are not really defined. I don't see what the problem is. If I want to wear my hair long (I don't) or go shopping at the Banana Republic (I won't), I really don't care if someone thinks it's "manly" or not. This sort of rant about manhood all adds up to some level of insecurity to me. Sorry.

Any man who obsesses over his clothes and his freshly coiffed hair-do, shaves his body from head to toe, cares about his tan, or worries more about things he owns than the things he does, is nothing but a pussy faggot. Because I said so, and that's all you need to know.

Not that men need another excuse to become more like women every day, but one major influence on us now, is that women want a guy they can push around, who will relinquish control to them and can be finely shaped and manipulated, end of story. Any guy who has an iota of pride or (gasp!) a sizable physical presence to back it up is not likely to be picked first by Modern Woman. Sorry, that's the way it is. Now, there are exceptions to the rule, some women still desire men who are, in fact, MEN, but the majority don't. I work with a lot of these women, and you ought to see these gangly little pricks they fawn over. Sickening.

-Stacey

[Paul Sousa]

I say let them be. The more weak guys out there the more that'll be eaten before me when the zombies come.

[Jacob]

Good post. I'm 30 and when I go to the barbershop, I'm the only one under 60 there. It is amazing how many men go to the beauty salon now.

[stef]

This


A man should be self-sufficient yet accept the help and encouragement of others. A man should respect himself and others, have good morals and values, match his words with his actions, help others in need, work hard, support his family, respect his parents, learn from his mistakes, and be STRONG in all aspects.

with this


being yourself and not worrying a great deal about what others think

is a basic, general description of a worthwhile adult human being. Of course, things like "good" morals and values and such are up for debate.

But even without defining those, I would agree that most people live their lives as fucking dependent childish loser pussies.

s.

[jep6095]

I doubt it was meant to be the next article in the Lumberjack magazine or something.


There's a magazine with Lumberjacks????? Don't TEASE me!!!!
jp

[Tiburon]

It is amazing how many men go to the beauty salon now.

I don't trust my sweet mullet with just any old barber. Some dudes *need* the stylist.

[jameson]

I think another thing is that "doing things" has been replaced with "having things". Too many men I know brag about what they have bought or own; tv, stereo, car, etc, instead of bragging about what they do with what they own; awesome movie night, lap times/off roading.

We need to get back to being proud about what we do

Weight lifted > six pack
Speed driven > car owned
Equipment hauled/stumps ripped > truck owned
Entertaining friends/family > big tv
writing software > awesome computer
fixing cars > garage full of tools
making tasty bbq/steaks > weber grill

I never thought about it that way, but you bring up a very good point. Thanks for your insight.



I really don't care if someone thinks it's "manly" or not. This sort of rant about manhood all adds up to some level of insecurity to me. Sorry. I guess my definition of a man includes being yourself and not worrying a great deal about what others think.

matclone, I never intended for this to be a boxing match, but being manly IS being yourself. What I'm saying is that most males fail to do this. When males care more about what others think than they do about doing what they feel is right, they end up not being very good men. I gave some comical examples of cleaning rifles and cutting firewood to get your gears turning. These are often thought of as manly tasks. Other manly tasks are supporting your family, being financially stable, fighting for what you believe in. I don't really care if you shop at Banana Republic or not. I'm just saying that the classical model of men has diminished, and in the rubble, there are an abundance of whiny males wandering this earth that don't have a clue what it means to truly be a man.

Oh, and I humbly submit that all men have some level of insecurity.

[JCavin]

Oh, and I humbly submit that all men have some level of insecurity.

Yup. I'm insecure about the size of my penis...



I'm always afraid i'm gonna hurt my wife! HEY-OO!!




No, not really... Now i'm a sad panda (o.O) <---- Sad Panda face

[jameson]

This "A man should be self-sufficient yet accept the help and encouragement of others. A man should respect himself and others, have good morals and values, match his words with his actions, help others in need, work hard, support his family, respect his parents, learn from his mistakes, and be STRONG in all aspects." with this "being yourself and not worrying a great deal about what others think" is a basic, general description of a worthwhile adult human being. Of course, things like "good" morals and values and such are up for debate.

But even without defining those, I would agree that most people live their lives as fucking dependent childish loser pussies.

s.

Stef, defining those would spark a whole other debate I'm not interested in being a part of...yet. I don't follow the whole relativistic approach, but neither am I some kind of idealist. I have my morals, and I stick to them as best I can. Thanks for your post - I consider it a privilege.

[78704]

Good post. I'm 30 and when I go to the barbershop, I'm the only one under 60 there. It is amazing how many men go to the beauty salon now.

A barber said to me, "You're always going to be ugly, you might as well be comfortable." So I laughed and said sure, he ran the clippers over my head, I tipped him $10 and went out and got a set of clippers at Costco for $25; amortized cost by now is about a quarter a month; nine styles available! (8 guards, but I usually don't bother with one.)

And hey, I don't want to introduce dirty talk or impure thoughts to the bacon forum, but there is a good reason to do a little manscaping with the clippers, knowumsayin?

[JCavin]

And hey, I don't want to introduce dirty talk or impure thoughts to the bacon forum, but there is a good reason to do a little manscaping with the clippers, knowumsayin?

Truuf.

I manscape down there. You know why? 'Cause I need all the optical illusionary help I can get.

[Krump]

This



with this



is a basic, general description of a worthwhile adult human being. Of course, things like "good" morals and values and such are up for debate.

But even without defining those, I would agree that most people live their lives as fucking dependent childish loser pussies.

s.

I agree. This isn't just a definition of a good man, it is a definition of a good person.

There was a a good article written in Testosterone Muscle dealing with the subject of manhood just a few weeks ago. It is definitely worth a read:

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny_grok/you_dont_know_dick_about_manhood

[william jackson]

Scars

they tell stories of our past adventures. i know "guys" without a single scar on their bodies. no sliding into home in your gravel driveway, no climbing a barbwire fence to get to that sweet swimming spot or a burn mark for attempting to light a kickass bonfire. if you havent physically marked yourself in an attempt at doing something awesome, you havent been trying hard enough.

Disclaimer: not that physically abusing yourself is cool or manly, its just that hard work or good times result in bodily damage sometimes

[Dastardly]

Only a man could drink PBR.


I disagree, it is a hipsters favorite;

http://justjudyjudyjudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/hipster-beard-pbr.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_B9iAJChm8WM/SbbJbYE6ALI/AAAAAAAAAaw/JEBsCQx3RTs/s400/02.jpg

http://www.summerofshred.com/images/yu/yu-pbr.jpg


http://4.media.tumblr.com/37jsqloFrpz98uvfBGPf802Io1_500.jpg

[matclone]

Remember that Men's Health cover that promised to reveal the secret to six-pack abs in 24 hours? http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=14104&highlight=men%27s+health. I see now how it was done.

[nisora33]

Though he might not match our physical ideal of manliness, he is nevertheless a MAN:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4275272612_212981d72d_o.jpg

[msingh]

http://i.imgur.com/Kofts.png

[matclone]

Now that was funny Singh.

[matclone]

I think he should have had a shot of whiskey and maybe even a cigarette with his goddamn bacon. After all, "you can't be a man if you doesn't smoke, the same cigarettes as me" (Jagger and Richards).

[quadancer]

The wife gets on me for my machismo now and then and I know some women probably can't stand me: I don't need them.
OTOH, I don't need you pricks who think you're men because of the booze you chooze, how you shave, or because you painted your Harley black (*mine's maROON; get over it).
A man doesn't have to define himself; he knows.

[Weakling]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvltzwkUEEA

I listen to this before and after every set of squats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiXaT_1I-vw

And something completely unrelated... kinda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrSSSfYE2dQ

A man knows how to share!

[william jackson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvltzwkUEEA

I listen to this before and after every set of squats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiXaT_1I-vw

And something completely unrelated... kinda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrSSSfYE2dQ

A man knows how to share!

whether you know it or not, we just became friends

[Kostas]

... one major influence on us now, is that women want a guy they can push around, who will relinquish control to them and can be finely shaped and manipulated, end of story. Any guy who has an iota of pride or (gasp!) a sizable physical presence to back it up is not likely to be picked first by Modern Woman. Sorry, that's the way it is. Now, there are exceptions to the rule, some women still desire men who are, in fact, MEN, but the majority don't. I work with a lot of these women, and you ought to see these gangly little pricks they fawn over. Sickening.

-Stacey

I respectfully disagree. The majority of women don't yet know that they want a real man, but if/when meet one, they would/will change their mind. It might be painful for them, and a few might never accept it, but the majority would.

The problem is that there aren't many real men out there.

Also, I have to say that a real man should be able to chop wood, grow a manly beard, barbecue, refrain from shaving his chest, wrestle bears at night, etc etc etc, and when necessary walk around with a baby strapped to his back without looking morose.

Raising children is manly.

[zendefone]

This is a very good definition of a man that i like.

http://www.sosuave.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000371.html

[Sgsolberg]

A man is a guy who gets his shit done. He does it without complaining, he does it on time.
A man takes responsibility for his own life and considers how he will impact the lives of those around him.
A man must be strong mentally, emotionally, and physically.
He must do what he thinks is right, even when no one else is watching him.

[nisora33]

[QUOTE=knkavo;92444]I respectfully disagree. The majority of women don't yet know that they want a real man, but if/when meet one, they would/will change their mind. It might be painful for them, and a few might never accept it, but the majority would.
[QUOTE]

Points taken. Perhaps you're right.

[Krump]

A man is a guy who gets his shit done. He does it without complaining, he does it on time.
A man takes responsibility for his own life and considers how he will impact the lives of those around him.
A man must be strong mentally, emotionally, and physically.
He must do what he thinks is right, even when no one else is watching him.

Again, this is just a definition of a good person.

[EJLouis]

And something completely unrelated... kinda:

[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrSSSfYE2dQ

A man knows how to share!

Gross! Sharing a bottle of beer.

[Kostas]

A man is a guy who gets his shit done. He does it without complaining, he does it on time.
A man takes responsibility for his own life and considers how he will impact the lives of those around him.
A man must be strong mentally, emotionally, and physically.
He must do what he thinks is right, even when no one else is watching him.

I think that pretty much covers it. Nice one.

[applescruffette]

I think there are many different ways to describe a "real" man that goes far beyond physical appearance. My husband has lanky ol' legs by genetics, is strong enough for many purposes that doesn't necessitate bench pressing a moose, but he is the manliest man I know for things he's done and who he is.

Honestly, the absolute biggest draw initially for me was seeing how he treated elderly people he wasn't related to and doing a job you guys probably wouldn't consider manly but is still super tough mentally. There are definitely aspects of the job he does that is enhanced by his being a dude (and acting like it) that is unable to be replicated by a female doing the same job in how he relates to people, lucid and demented alike.

My husband is 20 years older than me. Guys (in very, very general terms) who are older seem to be cut from a different mold than the guys my age, at least when I was dating before I got married at 24. He came from a family where money was extraordinarily tight and squirrel and rabbit weren't killed and eaten for the fun of it. That undoubtedly helped his manliness along. He came from a dad who was chopping wood in the afternoon for the upcoming winter at that time and died that evening from his diseased heart with nary a complaint, knowing him. Stepping up and raising a child who is not biologically yours and legally adopting her 6 years later as your own is really freaking manly. Raising the other children you've made, of course, is manly as well. Etc., etc. There's not enough space to go into all of it.

Yes, I like being married to a manly man, even if he doesn't outwardly look like a lumberjack. I tell our daughters that if they so choose to marry, they would be smart to marry a man like their daddy.

Sorry this is so long.

[tennisgod]

My mum was a very smart woman... and she once said "Women will want to control you and once they do, they'll despise you". I love this statement and it's dead-on.

A man takes care of his family, loves his kids, and would walk 5 miles over broken glass for any of them.

Good thread...

[TomV]

A man is a guy who gets his shit done. He does it without complaining, he does it on time.
A man takes responsibility for his own life and considers how he will impact the lives of those around him.
A man must be strong mentally, emotionally, and physically.
He must do what he thinks is right, even when no one else is watching him.

Fantastic post.


I think another thing is that "doing things" has been replaced with "having things". Too many men I know brag about what they have bought or own; tv, stereo, car, etc, instead of bragging about what they do with what they own; awesome movie night, lap times/off roading.

We need to get back to being proud about what we do

Weight lifted > six pack
Speed driven > car owned
Equipment hauled/stumps ripped > truck owned
Entertaining friends/family > big tv
writing software > awesome computer
fixing cars > garage full of tools
making tasty bbq/steaks > weber grill

These two are IMO the best posts in the thread. I hate all this consumerist bullshit that seems to exist in society nowadays, both what I see in American culture and my own. I am 20 years old and to look around at the materialistic generation that I am a part of makes me quite frustrated at times.

I'm not a manly man. I don't drink, I listen and sing along to all kinds of "nancy" music (as well as Chicago and Zep :P), and I sure as hell still consider myself a man.

[rtzptut]

Only a man could drink PBR.

Haha my WVa grandmother and mother drank it all the time as well as Iron City. Grandma switched to Odouls at 93, not sure why. They are both gone now.

[rtzptut]

And Grandma had bacon and eggs for b-fast every day of her life and made it to 96. Bacon - truly the fountain of youth.
But those cartoons were funny.

Before I got moderated off the Crossfit boards I posted a rant about men being pussies. I will try to find it and write copy and paste over here. I was actually complimented by a mod for not abusng their posting rules (not that I knew exactly what they were, what me follow directions?) while ranting but told I overused the word - well it was necessary. Someone had posted an article by some rightest old school guy saying men these days are pussies and many took it to mean that he thought women were wimpy and should be dominated but that was not what he was saying at all. The CrossFit women were up in arms about it - idiots. I agree whole heartedly with his point 100 percent even though I am as feminist leftist tree hugger as you can get- men today are pussified. Present company excepted being able to lift big weight puts you headed in the direction of not being a pussy but there's a whole lot more to it. I will try to find a the link to his article too because it was great and very appropo for this thread.

I have been told at work (I work with close to 50 men and no women) that more than a few dislike me because I am "more of a man" than they are. I work my ass off 'til it's time to come back from the field, I pull my own weight, they do nothing for me. We are out there rain or shine. More than a few of them are lazy, stay home "sick" when it rains, go on a big benders and don't come to work for a week among other dumbass behavior and would rather stand around smoking than actually lift a finger and DO SOMETHING.

When I was married, I paid every bill, managed to get four kids and me to five different schools each day. And I worked part time as well at received a stipend for grad school. I painted our new house top to bottom by droplight at night, grad school/work by day while he sat on his ass. I managed two rental properites, did the taxes etc. managed all aspects of our finances. I had to get up from doing the taxes one year and run out of the house with the little kitchen fire extinguisher over to the rental because a tenant smelled smoke. Yes fire department was called I am not an idiot and it was just incense in a toilet paper roll. That house was actually my husband's and he never got up from the couch where he was watching TV when it could have been burning to the ground.

Because he was a big burly (and extremely hot) arborist, a man's man in appearance hauling his big self up into 200 ft trees every day. Carrying around huge pieces of wood etc did that make him a "real man"? No not in my book, which is why when he walked out on his wife and step kids of ten years my thoughts were don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
We had really cute lesbian tenants and we could not figure out who "wore the pants" in thier family. When I asked who wore them in our family his response was "well you of course". Never again will I be in that kind of relationship.
I will give him 100% credit for being devoted to his own kids - that's it though. Note IMHO: a single man that does not take care of his kids meaning have them with him there at least half the time can NEVER BE A REAL MAN.

I'll hunt for that article and my response when I have more time. But men need lessons on how to be manly and not pussies that's for sure. I can count the men that are "real men" I know on my fingers. I probably wouldn't make it to using toes.

[rtzptut]

More later this took me forever to find, plus I forgot about his wife's reply which was very good. I have to find that but later cause I cannot get my truck started have to go a wrestle with that because I need it.

http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/essays/41/

[Sal Webber]

Man class in Iraq.... We're not the only country with wimpy men. "You guys want to be men? Go down there and start beating peoples' asses."...so many great one liners...this Man sounds like Patton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqQgoCAED08

The subject of this clip is really leadership to me. It's obviously a wartime situation but in general it's about taking responsibility. The dipshit that posted this posted it cast Amercan soldiers in a negative light. I think it does the opposite.

Lot's of great points already mentioned but really almost everything boils down to leadership for me. If you are a male, and have a family, you are in a leadership role. Like it or not. The next generation in your family depends on whether or not the male accepts this responsibility. Ever heard the saying "Behind every great man stands a great women"? It's because when a man accepts his male leadership role, it makes it much easier for the woman to accept her female leadership role. Every relationship is different but the ones that I have seen have the most problems usually boil down to one side having to do "too much" (relative term) in the relationship...male or female. Women seem to be almost genetically more responsible than men...men have to work at it( another relative statement). When a man accepts his responsibility to be the leader, he possesses a lot of the great characteristics already mentioned in the previous posts.

There is a confidence in a man who knows where he is going in life.

[quadancer]

Although the soldier was right, he just did more damage to US/Iraqui relations than anyone I've seen thus far. It could have been handled tactfully, without being so overbearing; he came off as a bully rather than a hero to me.
OTOH, you have these guys:

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb223/quadancer/Artstuff/db_LSR_Priceless.jpg

[CJTX]

A man is a guy who gets his shit done. He does it without complaining, he does it on time.
A man takes responsibility for his own life and considers how he will impact the lives of those around him.
A man must be strong mentally, emotionally, and physically.
He must do what he thinks is right, even when no one else is watching him.

I agree with this too. I remember when I started my first job, my dad told me, "just do what you say you'll do, by when you say you'll do it, and you'll be ahead of 90% of the people you work with". Still true after 10 years.

[Sal Webber]

It could have been handled tactfully, without being so overbearing; he came off as a bully rather than a hero to me.

I disagree. Here you have a group of males who aren't handling their shit. People die if they don't get their shit done. Strong tone and language are appropriate in these types of situations.

Let me give you a corporate example. I've had many people on my team whine to me about work/life balance. First thing I tell them is that there is no such thing. There is only life. If you're family is complaining, it's your problem and you're not handling your shit. Period. Get your work done, get home and pay attention to what they need. That's what a Man does.

[Kyle Aaron]

Man class in Iraq.... We're not the only country with wimpy men. "You guys want to be men? Go down there and start beating peoples' asses."...so many great one liners...this Man sounds like Patton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqQgoCAED08
I think if I were an Iraqi, that speech would make me join the militias.

Macho abuse does not equal manliness. Any moron can stand up in front of a bunch of guys and abuse them as pussies. Part of masculinity is restraint, not yapping off every damn fool thing that pops into your head.

Still less is manliness about "beating people's asses."

Macho bluster is not manliness. It's just macho bluster.

Notice he had the good old Imaginary Lat Syndrome, too. Arms out to the sides to show how big he wasn't. If he wants to be a man, he ought to take off his sunglasses, helmet, vest and webbing, put his arms by his sides instead of flapping out like a turkey, and sit down talking to these guys as an equal - another man. And motivate them properly, not just hurl abuse at them.

What a cocksmock.

[misspelledgeoff]

Hey why do you have a "T" under your...wait...never mind.




I think if I were an Iraqi, that speech would make me join the militias.

Macho abuse does not equal manliness. Any moron can stand up in front of a bunch of guys and abuse them as pussies. Part of masculinity is restraint, not yapping off every damn fool thing that pops into your head.

Still less is manliness about "beating people's asses."

Macho bluster is not manliness. It's just macho bluster.

Notice he had the good old Imaginary Lat Syndrome, too. Arms out to the sides to show how big he wasn't. If he wants to be a man, he ought to take off his sunglasses, helmet, vest and webbing, put his arms by his sides instead of flapping out like a turkey, and sit down talking to these guys as an equal - another man. And motivate them properly, not just hurl abuse at them.

What a cocksmock.

[Scrofula]

It's weird to reply to a thread about manliness quoting a poem, but I think Rudyard Kipling's If— (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If%E2%80%94) hits the nail on the head. It encourages wisdom, composure, daring, stoicism, grit, versatility, and integrity. The poem was written as if from a father to a son, but these are necessary qualities in all human beings. I think the responsibilities of men and women today and the qualities required to meet them are pretty much identical.

As for the Iraq video, I'm not willing to evaluate the situation without more context. I do know that if I was one of those Iraqi policemen, I'd be pissed to have some blustery outsider who can't pronounce the name of the country he's in trying to tell me what to do. It's possible that he's right on target, and these guys are pottering around uselessly; it's just as possible that these guys are the ones fighting the real war, and the soldier is just a clown on a power trip. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

[quadancer]

I'll agree that you'd probably have to be there; know what the climate is. But to anyone seeing the video with half a brain, it comes off as machismo and insulting. But the guy insults himself and he's representing US. A bit over the top, regardless.

[Kyle Aaron]

Hey why do you have a "T" under your...wait...never mind.
I must have hurt someone's feelings. Manly men are a bit sensitive.

[quadancer]

LOL...be sure to have your arms out when you say that...

[Hc2Mike]

Kyle, were you ever in the military? That type of group "ass-chewing" is bread and butter shit... Highly common place and very useful. That squared away, top notch LEADER OF MEN, is intentionally offending them and challenging them, in an attempt to galvanize their fucked up warrior spirit.

[quadancer]

Yeah, and we had SO much respect for our D.I.'s in bootcamp. Please.

[Kostas]

Yeah, and we had SO much respect for our D.I.'s in bootcamp. Please.

Yes, who hasn't fantasized about murdering their drill sergeant? So perhaps it's not really a good idea to be putting thoughts like that in the minds of people who are already probably sitting on the fence of which side to join, are already under a huge amount of mental stress and don't need any more, etc etc.

[BryanM]

Yeah, and we had SO much respect for our D.I.'s in bootcamp. Please.
Maybe his function is identical to theirs: expendable canary to weed out psychopaths.

I'm sure his speech included very persuasive arguments in why you wouldn't want retaliation for that collateral damage stuff. Or from being molested by America's noodly appendage. Or from whatever.

[quadancer]

No. The point of abuse from drill sergeants is demoralization. A tearing down of the personal id to reform the individual into a collective unit that functions as a team. This is for those who are in a position of having joined the team, and I guarantee you, it is far from the speech used by recruiters.

[jameson]

My brother-in-law and I had a brief, yet in-depth conversation, about the definition of a man. This led to a conversation about the human condition, and how, in broad and general terms, the inherent nature of man (not just men) is to take the path of least resistance. The more I’ve thought about this, the more I realize it to be true. To some, stealing may seem like the path of least resistance, or bribery, or infidelity, or whatever (though I would argue that in the long run, these are the paths of the most resistance.) I say that the WANT of the path of least resistance has actually helped us achieve some of the greatest accomplishments in history – the computer, the microwave, the car, etc. However, I would also argue that knowing when to do things the hard way, for sake of character, is one of the marks of a true man…and woman. Chopping wood lends time to bond with a son, shaving with a razor always provides a closer shave than electric, knowing how to start a fire without a lighter, paper, and kindling might someday prove very useful if found without these luxuries, strength training, and the list goes on. I agree with an earlier post that scars tell a man’s history. The size and strength you all gain following Rip’s protocol are but just two examples of this. Your children are examples of this. Your outlook on life. Your belief system. These are all marks of a real man. My original post wasn’t defining what a man should be, it was merely my thoughts on the subject. Where you are today defines who you are as a man or male. I hope my post led some to think deeply about their own condition. I’m glad to see so many responses. It gives me hope. It should give all you men hope.

[JAL]

My father-in-law died in June. He was Heinlein's man, with the whole long list that comes before 'specialization is for insects.'

The thing that I'm thinking about now, though, is when I saw him May, completely emaciated, cancer chewing through whatever tissue was handy, and he's pissed that he can't get WiFi on his laptop so he can Skype his grandkids. So he spends the last three weeks of his life selling every nurse, doctor, administrator, orderly, chaplain and guest who walks by his door on a wifi setup for the hospice unit that he knows he's not going to be around to use.

That's a man.

(They got wifi in there in September, plus a couple of computers for patients and family to use.)

[nisora33]

My father-in-law died in June. He was Heinlein's man, with the whole long list that comes before 'specialization is for insects.'

The thing that I'm thinking about now, though, is when I saw him May, completely emaciated, cancer chewing through whatever tissue was handy, and he's pissed that he can't get WiFi on his laptop so he can Skype his grandkids. So he spends the last three weeks of his life selling every nurse, doctor, administrator, orderly, chaplain and guest who walks by his door on a wifi setup for the hospice unit that he knows he's not going to be around to use.

That's a man.

(They got wifi in there in September, plus a couple of computers for patients and family to use.)

May he rest in peace, JAL. Thank you for sharing this.

-Stacey

[Nauticus]

The definition of a man: http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/3252134/Apiatas-Afghan-exploits-revealed
http://static.stuff.co.nz/1264111853/915/3253915.jpg

[jameson]

My father-in-law died in June. He was Heinlein's man, with the whole long list that comes before 'specialization is for insects.'

The thing that I'm thinking about now, though, is when I saw him May, completely emaciated, cancer chewing through whatever tissue was handy, and he's pissed that he can't get WiFi on his laptop so he can Skype his grandkids. So he spends the last three weeks of his life selling every nurse, doctor, administrator, orderly, chaplain and guest who walks by his door on a wifi setup for the hospice unit that he knows he's not going to be around to use.

That's a man.

(They got wifi in there in September, plus a couple of computers for patients and family to use.)


JAL, I appreciate you sharing this with us. Really, thank you.