Michael Jordan sure was "twitchy"

[Gary Gibson]

I made a long overdue trip to the barbershop today. There were posters of various athletes along the walls. There was a photograph poster of Michael Jordan in mid leap and about to dunk.

The man's eyes were almost level with the rim at the apex of his jump. (Kinda like this (http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2008/04/14/174044/MichaelJordan1985.jpg).)

Michael Jordan stood six-foot-six or so and the rim was ten feet. His vertical leap was about three and a half freaking feet.

He inspired millions to be like him, but that sort of "twitchy" musculature is born, not developed by training. His ability to generate force rapidly was genetic and refined for use in his chosen sport by thousands of hours of quality practice.

I can get a lot bigger and a lot stronger under the bar, but I'll never be able to move like natural athletes like Michael. Most of us will never be like Michael. Exploding into the air like that is obviously within the realm of human ability because there are a handful of humans that can do it...but it's so rare and so on the edge of human ability that it seems very nearly superhuman, the stuff that gods and superheroes do.

Ugh. Man, I really wish I could do that.

[msingh]

I read somewhere he used to dig a big hole in his yard and then try jump in and out of it for hours and hours, once he could do it, he make the hole deeper

[tennisgod]

Ugh. Man, I really wish I could do that.

With the risk of poo-pooing this thread, I think it's fine to admire people who do great things since we all do, but your line that I quoted struck me as interesting.

I think this envy of other people is very destructive, and it contributes considerably to people's feeling of inadequacy. If we are not totally committed to some endeavour (like your MJ example) then we shouldn't feel envy... admiration fine but not envy. I can't be envious of MJ when I play 1 hour of basketball per week on Monday nights (love it, btw).

It's so disturbing seeing young girls (10/11 yos) competing against other girls in terms of fashion, looks, makeup, etc. and God-help the girl that falls slightly outside the accepted norm. All of this fueled by envy... My 9yo daughter (like all girls) has the ability to scan another girl and see everything about that girl in like 1.5 seconds. She doesn't care about boys... only the girls.

I suppose we all feel it on this forum where we hear tales of people of similar size lifting 50kg more, or see some guy add 30kg worth of muscle in a couple of months, but we can't gauge our self-worth by comparing ourselves to the freaks-of-nature.

No wonder people give up lifting because they feel they can't compete, or girls turn anorexic or even suicidal if they don't fit in.

I try to be self-contained and base my self-perception on internal factors. I know that there are richer, handsomer, stronger, longer (damn!) guys out there, but who the fuck cares.

[simonsky]

gary to somehow ease you from your envy, a person's height determines his reach or how high one is from he rim. if you're only envious about dunking (like any 6 ft below individual like myself) and not with the inhumane basketball prowess of mike then this guy would be better of an idol

http://mcfl.com.au/images/HoF_SpudWebb.jpg

also, genetics only plays a role to some extent until practice and dedication comes in to play. i believe that you can dunk, and you will dunk the ball like him if you dedicated your life to training your vertical.

and i also believe MJ knows skwa about squatting.

[Dastardly]

You are at least one step closer to being like michael than someone like me. I am of south asian genetics and have a vertical jump of about 6 inches!

There is very little potential for explosive power in someone like myself, yet barbell training has rapidly increased my ability to sprint like nothing else.

I think genetically my musculature and mentality is highly suited to endurance, but the problem is I have damaged lungs, asthma & rhinitis so aerobic endeavors are also doomed.

All I know is that strength training is an upward ladder, my 'physical ability' however poor, is getting better and better as plates are added to the bar.

Anyhow, here is a 5'9" white guy who can also get his eyes on level to the rim.

I think a large part of his ability has been gained through strength & power training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UBkRpMStjM

[blowdpanis]

You are at least one step closer to being like michael than someone like me. I am of south asian genetics and have a vertical jump of about 6 inches!

There is very little potential for explosive power in someone like myself, yet barbell training has rapidly increased my ability to sprint like nothing else.

I think genetically my musculature and mentality is highly suited to endurance, but the problem is I have damaged lungs, asthma & rhinitis so aerobic endeavors are also doomed.

All I know is that strength training is an upward ladder, my 'physical ability' however poor, is getting better and better as plates are added to the bar.

Anyhow, here is a 5'9" white guy who can also get his eyes on level to the rim.

I think a large part of his ability has been gained through strength & power training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UBkRpMStjM

You can definitely improve vertical leap through training, but how high you can jump and how fast you can run are hugely genetically determined. So if by "large part of his ability" you actually meant "a small part on top of his innate, freak genetics," then you are correct.

[Gary Gibson]

Strength seems to be THE MOST improvable function in the human body. Final height, explosiveness, penis volume, breast size, etc are incredibly and frustratingly unalterable without exosomatic help like radical surgery (edit: not explosiveness, however; nothing improves that).

You can improve your vertical, but not by much because vertical depends less on how big your motor units are and more on how many of them you can turn on right away. Motor unit size increases with proper strength training, but how many motor units get turned on at once is pretty much determined at conception with the instructions carried in yo' daddy's sperm and yo' mamma's ovum.

My point is that I have seen nothing to indicate that vertical leap can be improved more than a few percent with practice and strength training. The internet is rife with ways to put inches on your vertical, but these seem about as legit as those offers to put inches on your wang.

So if you start out with a vertical of 30", you may end up with a vertical of 35" with lots of practice...but if you're starting with 6", then even 10" may be a little outside of your potential. Within a few weeks of taking up basketball, I went from almost being able to touch rim to actually grabbing and hanging from the rim...and despite tripling my leg strength I've never gotten any higher. Now I'm in my mid-30's and my speed and explosiveness have started to decline. Oh well.

And I don't think envy is a bad thing. I believe in the sanctity of the individual and that human happiness is ultimately a matter of liberty and self-actualization. But I also understand that the universe, life and nature don't care if any of us are happy. Life is struggle and the best win and get the most out of it. Slow, stupid, weak men don't get any money or any girls.

I think one of the noblest things one can do is to realize that one's offspring would be miserable losers like oneself and then spare those potential offspring the misery of a loser existence. If your life has really sucked because you are thoroughly mediocre or largely subpar, then don't make babies with some woman desperate enough to bear your young.

[Paul Sousa]

I agree completely that vertical is hugely genetic. Some of the best jumpers I knew playing ball in high school did absolutely ZERO work on their vertical. All they did was play ball. The only conditioning work they did was at practice, which basically consisted of sprints. Otherwise they sat on the couch, ate junk, and did nothing. One of them was a lanky, 6'1" white kid who could dunk two handed. Another was a skinny 6'1" black kid who after an all day tourney I saw him get his whole hand above the box on th backboard. I worked like crazy to try and improve my vertical, albeit in not the best way, and the best I could get was a one handed dunk that I could only do in layup lines.

[Tim Lofton]

My favorite player of all-time:

http://barelyawakeinfrogpajamas.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/julius-erving.jpg

[Smiler Grogan]

You either have it or you don't, there's a little you can do to fine-tune things but not much. It's like arm strength for throwing a baseball or football. You can work on your technique to keep from wasting effort or making the ball wobble, but I have yet to see any amount of specific shoulder strength training take anyone from an 80mph fastball to a 90mph fastball. It's pretty much the same with vertical. Once you groove the movement you hit the ceiling pretty quickly. Most of the people I know who attribute their high vertical leap to their training were already good jumpers to begin with.

I am highly skeptical of the story of Michael Jordan digging a hole to jump out of. He popped out of the womb ready to dunk.

[Gary Gibson]

You either have it or you don't, there's a little you can do to fine-tune things but not much. It's like arm strength for throwing a baseball or football. You can work on your technique to keep from wasting effort or making the ball wobble, but I have yet to see any amount of specific shoulder strength training take anyone from an 80mph fastball to a 90mph fastball. It's pretty much the same with vertical. Once you groove the movement you hit the ceiling pretty quickly. Most of the people I know who attribute their high vertical leap to their training were already good jumpers to begin with.

I am highly skeptical of the story of Michael Jordan digging a hole to jump out of. He popped out of the womb ready to dunk.

Emphatic agreement with all of your post, but that image that that last line conjured is going to haunt me for the rest of my life.

[Charles Staley]

I have similar envy watching great weightlifters. Unfortunately I'm 50 and have minimal talent. So my tule of thumb is, if watching/comparing yourself with/envying a particular athlete inspires you, do it. If it depresses you stop doing it.

And ultimately, focus on making yourself better, one small step at a time


I made a long overdue trip to the barbershop today. There were posters of various athletes along the walls. There was a photograph poster of Michael Jordan in mid leap and about to dunk.

The man's eyes were almost level with the rim at the apex of his jump. (Kinda like this (http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2008/04/14/174044/MichaelJordan1985.jpg).)

Michael Jordan stood six-foot-six or so and the rim was ten feet. His vertical leap was about three and a half freaking feet.

He inspired millions to be like him, but that sort of "twitchy" musculature is born, not developed by training. His ability to generate force rapidly was genetic and refined for use in his chosen sport by thousands of hours of quality practice.

I can get a lot bigger and a lot stronger under the bar, but I'll never be able to move like natural athletes like Michael. Most of us will never be like Michael. Exploding into the air like that is obviously within the realm of human ability because there are a handful of humans that can do it...but it's so rare and so on the edge of human ability that it seems very nearly superhuman, the stuff that gods and superheroes do.

Ugh. Man, I really wish I could do that.

[Guido]

I have similar envy watching great weightlifters. Unfortunately I'm 50 and have minimal talent. So my tule of thumb is, if watching/comparing yourself with/envying a particular athlete inspires you, do it. If it depresses you stop doing it.

And ultimately, focus on making yourself better, one small step at a timeAgreed. Without some degree of envy it's unlikely many of us would have ever picked up a barbell in the first place. While envy may be one of the "seven deadly sins" I think it's also inspired many, many humans to become better.

[PVC]

Final height, explosiveness, penis volume, breast size, etc are incredibly and frustratingly unalterable without exosomatic help like radical surgery

If breast implants are "radical surgery", then there are some very brave pornstars out there.

[Chewie_jrc]

If your life has really sucked because you are thoroughly mediocre or largely subpar, then don't make babies with some woman desperate enough to bear your young.

So when I make a bumper sticker of this quote and make millions, is 50/50 cool /w you?

[Krump]

Agreed. Without some degree of envy it's unlikely many of us would have ever picked up a barbell in the first place. While envy may be one of the "seven deadly sins" I think it's also inspired many, many humans to become better.

Exactly. Envy is a natural human emotion for a reason - healthy envy increases one's aspirations to better oneself. It is an important survivalist trait. Of course rationalizing survivalist traits in a contemporary, civilized world is on a whole other level.

[Krump]

I think one of the noblest things one can do is to realize that one's offspring would be miserable losers like oneself and then spare those potential offspring the misery of a loser existence. If your life has really sucked because you are thoroughly mediocre or largely subpar, then don't make babies with some woman desperate enough to bear your young.

It is a provocative but logical point. But I don't think it needs to be so fatalistic. I don't know much at all about genetics but there is something called epigenetics which basically is how the displayal of one's permanent genes can change as a result of lifestyle factors. And this form of the displayed genetic state can be passed down biologically as the genetic standard of the offspring. So ultimately if a "subpar" person reproduced it is likely their offspring will inherent these "subpar" traits. But if the "subpar" person engaged in physical activity that increased their muscular coordination, metabolic efficiency, and baseline strength (even if their end result was subpar for a highly trained individual), their offspring has a higher chance of inheriting the actively displayed characteristics of their father's genes as their baseline. Of course this is very oversimplified but it suggests the plasticity of genetics is more than we tend to give credit for.

Epigenetics - it is some interesting shit.

[Gary Gibson]

It is a provocative but logical point. But I don't think it needs to be so fatalistic. I don't know much at all about genetics but there is something called epigenetics which basically is how the displayal of one's permanent genes can change as a result of lifestyle factors. And this form of the displayed genetic state can be passed down biologically as the genetic standard of the offspring. So ultimately if a "subpar" person reproduced it is likely their offspring will inherent these "subpar" traits. But if the "subpar" person engaged in physical activity that increased their muscular coordination, metabolic efficiency, and baseline strength (even if their end result was subpar for a highly trained individual), their offspring has a higher chance of inheriting the actively displayed characteristics of their father's genes as their baseline. Of course this is very oversimplified but it suggests the plasticity of genetics is more than we tend to give credit for.

Epigenetics - it is some interesting shit.

Sounds like the discredited Lemarkian theory. I'll have to look into it more.

[coreJack]

I am highly skeptical of the story of Michael Jordan digging a hole to jump out of. He popped out of the womb ready to dunk.
I wonder if he came out of the womb with his tongue hanging out.

[msingh]

Why are you skeptical? He did a lot of stupid stuff like trying to hang off a chinup bar to get taller as a child. You can find such admissions on his videos on youtube, I think on 'Come Fly with me'.

[tennisgod]

Agreed. Without some degree of envy it's unlikely many of us would have ever picked up a barbell in the first place. While envy may be one of the "seven deadly sins" I think it's also inspired many, many humans to become better.

I don't agree. Envy is defined as "a feeling of discontent or covetousness with regard to another's advantages, success, possessions, etc.". There is nothing good about this attitude. The positive feeling is admiration.

[Krump]

Sounds like the discredited Lemarkian theory. I'll have to look into it more.

Yes, epigenetics is stirring up old notions about Lemarkian theory. Here is a basic starting point discussing the relationship between Lemarkian theory and epigentics from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism#Current_views_on_.22Lamarckism.22

PBS ran a few specials on epigenetics just a couple years ago. Very nice presentation. I found clips but don't know about the whole piece:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/02.html

The most interesting thing in this 13 minute clip is the difference between the fat mice and skinny mice with the SAME genes.

[Guido]

I don't agree. Envy is defined as "a feeling of discontent or covetousness with regard to another's advantages, success, possessions, etc.". There is nothing good about this attitude. The positive feeling is admiration.I suppose it depends on how you interpret the Webster's definition. I still maintain it can be a good thing if channeled into healthy endeavors.

[OldGreyOne]

I suppose it depends on how you interpret the Webster's definition. I still maintain it can be a good thing if channeled into healthy endeavors.

Have to agree. Back a few decades when I used to rock climb, I envied my partner because he was built like a spider-monkey. Could reach any hand or foot hold without effort. I, on the other hand, being stubby armed and legged, Learned to adapt. Became know as Doctor Lunge in my group because I learned to sniff out the right trajectory to make sure I could grab that hold. It was definitely envy. Lot of pissing and moaning about it on my part.

[Guido]

Excellent. If it makes you strive to be better at something then it's a good thing! If it makes you want to kill someone over jealousy of what they have then obviously it's not so good.

[Gary Gibson]

Excellent. If it makes you strive to be better at something then it's a good thing! If it makes you want to kill someone over jealousy of what they have then obviously it's not so good.

Envy helped me become better. I saw guys squatting 225 for reps and wanted to be able to do that (ha!). Then I saw a couple guys squatting 315 for reps and wanted to do that. Now because of Youtube I can watch guys squatting 500 for reps and I want to do that.

[OldGreyOne]

[QUOTE=Guido;97798If it makes you want to kill someone over jealousy of what they have then obviously it's not so good.[/QUOTE]

True and society tends to frown on that. Hopefully, social skills learned will prevent that sort of behaviour. Killing your climbing partner, while initially satisfying, leads to major problems in the climbing community. Then, there's the cops.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

There are two ways to win at any competition; make yourself better and sabotage the other guy. Whatever you call it, as long as it doesn't make you do the latter, you are fine.