Fat Loss Routine Critique [Archive] - Starting Strength Forums

SerusMournstar

02-03-2010, 05:44 PM

Hey fellas, I'm think I might take a few months and try and get rid of some of the fat I have acquired in my quest for unlimited strength. I did a few searches but couldn't find any specific routines to use on a calorie restricted diet. I'm 5'10 somewhere in the 230s and would like to get back to around the 200 range. I have been doing a Bill Starr like routine for a while now and have tried to adapt that to my goal (fat loss while preserving strength). The consensus I seem to be getting from this board is to lower volume while maintaining intensity.

The only set using maximal weight will be the last one and the other sets will pyramid to that.

Monday
Squats 5x5
Bench 5x5
Row 5x5

Wednesday
Deadlift 4x5
Press 4x5
Light Squats 4x5

Friday
Squats 5x5
Bench 5x5
Row 5x5

This is basically what I am doing now except Friday and Monday are the same instead of going for 3 rep maxes on Friday. I realize I haven't really lowered volume but there is only 1 work set to begin with as the first four sets are basically warm up sets. Any tweaks or input is appreciated. I also plan on doing an hour of light cardio on Tues and Thurs so I can get myself back into cardiovascular shape for kayaking this summer.

strengthstarter

02-03-2010, 08:07 PM

Wouldn't your diet be a more important factor in this?

gordonrumble

02-03-2010, 08:36 PM

Why not just do something less time-intensive like RFL, lose the weight fast and then get back on the wagon faster? You'd have to switch to a lower-volume plan for maintenance purposes, but I don't see the problem with that.

TrackJunkie

02-03-2010, 08:52 PM

SerusMournstar

02-03-2010, 10:20 PM

Wouldn't your diet be a more important factor in this?

Yes it would be, and I have lost weight before successfully and know how to eat to lose weight. I am simply trying to pick a routine that will help me preserve the most strength.

Why not just do something less time-intensive like RFL, lose the weight fast and then get back on the wagon faster? You'd have to switch to a lower-volume plan for maintenance purposes, but I don't see the problem with that.

I do not feel comfortable going on RFL without reading the book and I do not have the free time to read the book right now and with all the reading I do for class I do not feel like devoting my free time to more of it. Also I am not interested on going on a diet that would have me eating around 800 cal/day. Not saying that there is anything wrong with it, I just am in no hurry and don't believe a crash diet is right for me.

Yeah, I'm gonna make another vote for the lower-volume plan. If you've already started on your quest for strength, you probably won't make a whole lot of progress one way or another, so just cut back.

I'm a little unsure what you are getting at here. My plan is not to make progress but to maintain while on a calorie deficit. Any suggestions to modify my proposed routine are appreciated.

brobinson

02-04-2010, 06:35 PM

My plan is not to make progress but to maintain while on a calorie deficit. Any suggestions to modify my proposed routine are appreciated.

If you're eating at a caloric deficit you will probably end up having to cut down some on total volume. Of course it all depends on how much of a deficit you're creating and your individual recovery ability. Keep the weight on the bar heavy and drop the amount of sets if needed.

Lyle has an article describing how it is easier to maintain previously built muscle, with far less work, than it took to put it on in the first place. I'm pretty sure it will answer all your questions.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html

SerusMournstar

02-04-2010, 11:06 PM

If you're eating at a caloric deficit you will probably end up having to cut down some on total volume. Of course it all depends on how much of a deficit you're creating and your individual recovery ability. Keep the weight on the bar heavy and drop the amount of sets if needed.

Lyle has an article describing how it is easier to maintain previously built muscle, with far less work, than it took to put it on in the first place. I'm pretty sure it will answer all your questions.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html

Thanks that article is very helpful. What if to cut volume I completely drop my Friday workout which is just a repeat of Mondays work out. It would look something like this.

Monday
Squats 5x5
Bench 5x5
Row 5x5

Friday
Deadlift 4x5
Press 4x5
Light Squats 4x5

Do you guys think this will be too little volume to maintain? Been lifting three days a week for so long it would be a huge change to switch it up to something like this.

LCN

02-04-2010, 11:37 PM

A lot of people have kicked around the idea of modifying SS to 2/3rds volume, so either:

SS at your last successful 5 RM on M/F only.

SS with those same weights for only 2 worksets, MWF.

I'm planning to try the former when I start cutting in a few weeks.

SerusMournstar

02-04-2010, 11:39 PM

brobinson

02-05-2010, 07:37 AM

An interesting idea. I haven't been on SS for a while, I assume it would still work for maintenance though.

Sure it would. Anything sensible will. It's going to depend on your caloric deficit and you recovery. Keep your protein high while creating a deficit and program however you see fit. If the volume is too much for you, you'll know soon enough.

You may be able to keep the volume close to the same if eating close to maintenance. If you're caloric deficit is larger keeping the volume high will most likely burn you out and it's unnecessary.

It's an extreme example, but on RFL Lyle has guys eating under 1000 calories and reducing volume to 2 lifting workouts and no cardio. They seem to maintain strength as long as they follow his recommendations.

SerusMournstar

02-05-2010, 09:49 AM

Alright, I think I am going to do the two day workout I outlined above and do an hour of low intensity cardio Tues, Wed, and Thurs. If I start to notice decreases in strength perhaps I will switch back to my 3 day/week plan.

tennisgod

02-05-2010, 04:53 PM

Yeah, I'm gonna make another vote for the lower-volume plan. If you've already started on your quest for strength, you probably won't make a whole lot of progress one way or another, so just cut back.

This type of response is throughout these forums and I don't quite understand it. Even if he cuts-back on calories, won't he be hurting progress only if he is currently the strongest he can be at his current weight?

Since I doubt that any of us are the absolute strongest we can be at our current weights, won't we all still continue to progress with a reduced caloric intake until the body exhausts its current muscle-building resources? (meaning that we are as strong as possible at that weight)

Sami

02-06-2010, 06:14 AM

This type of response is throughout these forums and I don't quite understand it. Even if he cuts-back on calories, won't he be hurting progress only if he is currently the strongest he can be at his current weight?

Since I doubt that any of us are the absolute strongest we can be at our current weights, won't we all still continue to progress with a reduced caloric intake until the body exhausts its current muscle-building resources? (meaning that we are as strong as possible at that weight)

No, because we have to eat to recover. Also, ideally we must be fully fuelled to perform best at our current size AND strength level. If you went in the gym, either hungry or fully fed, which do you think you'll perform best at? Going on a cut will be like training hungry all the time (even if you aren't literally hungry whilst training).

What you're suggesting seems like everyone can do starting strength (or whatever) and get continuously stronger without having to eat more. And we know this not to be the case, since almost every guy that eats more after stalling, breaks through the stall even if he hasn't gained any weight.

There's a lot of physiology at work here.

TrackJunkie

02-06-2010, 10:35 AM

Exactly. It's a damn hard thing to lose fat and get stronger at the same time if you have any respectable amount of strength.

tennisgod

02-06-2010, 03:11 PM

What you're suggesting seems like everyone can do starting strength (or whatever) and get continuously stronger without having to eat more. And we know this not to be the case, since almost every guy that eats more after stalling, breaks through the stall even if he hasn't gained any weight.

I certainly agree that gaining strength is far easier if you eat for excess, but it confuses me that you cannot continue to progress (albeit much slower) if the body still has the resources it can grab to adapt to the lifting stresses.

Sami

02-06-2010, 03:49 PM

I certainly agree that gaining strength is far easier if you eat for excess, but it confuses me that you cannot continue to progress (albeit much slower) if the body still has the resources it can grab to adapt to the lifting stresses.

If you can believe progress would be significantly hindered, why is it such a stretch to understand we would get weaker (regress) without eating enough?

It's as simple as losing muscle. It's one thing to maintain a bodyweight and get stronger, this happens all the time. But if you're losing weight, you're losing muscle. Therefore, strength.

baronfebdasch

02-07-2010, 02:11 PM

If you can believe progress would be significantly hindered, why is it such a stretch to understand we would get weaker (regress) without eating enough?

It's as simple as losing muscle. It's one thing to maintain a bodyweight and get stronger, this happens all the time. But if you're losing weight, you're losing muscle. Therefore, strength.

I don't know if the strength losses with weight loss are an absolute guarantee. With the right diet and training strength can still be preserved. Otherwise we'd all be damned to be the same body fat % no matter what we do.

Mr.City

02-07-2010, 02:22 PM

Bloodninja666

02-07-2010, 03:41 PM

Part of me has been wondering just how much volume can be reduced. I've been tinkering around with the idea of making my workouts into a type of TM-style routine, except I would be doing 1,2,3, or 5RM with 95% to 100% of my previous 5RM before starting this diet. Is there a minimum amount of volume required to preserve strength?

Ive always heard that you can cut quite a big of volume and still maintain strength. What's more important is intensity- You still need to be lifting near 1rm.

SerusMournstar

02-07-2010, 07:48 PM

Part of me has been wondering just how much volume can be reduced. I've been tinkering around with the idea of making my workouts into a type of TM-style routine, except I would be doing 1,2,3, or 5RM with 95% to 100% of my previous 5RM before starting this diet. Is there a minimum amount of volume required to preserve strength?

If you read the link for the first page of this thread there is a really good article by Lyle. It says that volume can be reduced by 2/3 of what you were doing to build muscle. The thing that is important is keeping the same amount of weight on the bar.

Mr.City

02-07-2010, 07:54 PM

Oh, I've read Lyle's stuff. He brings this up in RFL. I'm just curious if there's a minimum amount of volume needed or if I get away with just doing heavy singles or doubles while losing weight.

TrackJunkie

02-07-2010, 07:57 PM

I have no clue, but it sounds like Lyle is saying that you can take volume down to a third, isn't he?

SerusMournstar

02-08-2010, 04:24 AM

I have no clue, but it sounds like Lyle is saying that you can take volume down to a third, isn't he?

Yeah here is a quote:

"The basic conclusion, again from both research and practical experience is that both volume and frequency of training can usually be cut by up to 2/3rds (that is, to 1/3rd of what you did to improve it) but with one massively important caveat: the intensity of that training must be maintained."

Mike O.

02-10-2010, 07:30 AM

In this thread (http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=3206&highlight=starting+strength&page=2) Lyle says that he doesn't think 1RM's would be enough to maintain muscle mass. He also recommends 1-2x5 for a modified SS routine while on RFL.

This is the plan I'm following, with 2 workouts a week. So far it seems to be working - after 2 weeks no noticeable strength loss, which I assume (hope) means no appreciable LBM loss. With the lower volume I'm tempted to bump my 1 work set of squats up by 10 pounds, which I think I'll try next workout.