Turnitin

[GVA-66]

Anyone here being forced to use the Turnitin service in their school? I just learned of this service as its use is mandated in a class I'm taking. I looked into the service and I am not happy about it at all. I just sent off an email to the department head of the school expressing my concerns. I could give a shit about checking my paper for cheating, I don't cheat so I am not worried. It's the other issues that bother me. Below is in part what I wrote:

"It is shocking to me that this service is so widely used by educational institutions and the blatant disregard these institutions have for the rights of their students. There are better ways to accomplish the same objective; forcing students to comply with entering into an irrevocable 3rd-party contractual agreement whose terms they do not agree with in order to receive an education is abhorrent. Schools are putting their need to quickly and easily detect plagiarism ahead of the rights of their students and turning a blind eye to the potential consequences. One of the criticisms I read concerning Turnitin is that students who are cheaters will find a way to circumvent Turnitin, and student's who are honest will be angered by the its use. There is much truth to that on both counts; apparently there are 'hacks' that can get around Turnitin, and I can tell you as an honest student the use of this service with the attendant requirement that I enter into a contractual agreement I would not otherwise angers me."

Seems like there are a fair number of students on this board. If you're a student and you've been forced to use this service what are your feelings regarding this? For the uninitiated who may be curious, here are some links to info (admittedly a biased selection, but clearly I'm not posting this to advocate for the service):

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/mar2007/tc20070313_733103.htm

You can download a case study regarding the service here:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1396725


And because this post is a wee bit serious in tone :mad:, in keeping with the spirit of this forum...bacon...bacon...bacon...bacon....bacon, fucking pigs at Turnitin, oops, I meant bacon.

Man, there is nothing like school to turn one off to education.

[Johnnyfondue]

Interesting.

Can you give me any other reasons why honest students wouldn't like it besides "getting angry about it"


(serious question)

[Patrick]

A friend of mine told me about a similar service he had to use when he was in college and one of the features was that if a paper was too similar to another in the database he had to edit it so that it got a certain uniqueness score. He was also an honest guy and a brilliant writer so for him, having to re-write something he put a lot of work into was a bit of a slap in the face.

I think one of the features of this software that makes it attractive for faculty is that cheating allegations are incredibly hard to support, so having the process automated upholds integrity as well as saving time.

[Rorschach]

I don't have a problem with this tool in theory. As long as the claimed plagarised sources are clearly shown for the professor/whoever to check against, then there isn't a big problem.
However, there are three issues I agree:
1) Lack of trust between student and teacher
That's just life to be honest. Your work will often be checked even more stringently in the real world, so you should be used to it. Up to the teacher whether they want to trust in their intuition and their knowledge of the student.
2) False results.
Hardly encouraging, but that's down to the implementation, not the principle idea of the tool. If Turnitin is shit, then hopefully with more reports like this they'll have to improve their system or lose a lot of business. As long as the teachers check the claimed sources, then it shouldn't be an issue.
3) Invasion of privacy/ copyright.
I don't know if the same is true in the US, but in the UK any work done at a university is the property of the university. Students don't own their essays or any other submissions, the university does. I wouldn't feel particularly happy with a privately owned company having all my work sitting on a database they could sell to whoever they want, but that's not up to me.
The universities *should* be saying that while Turnitin can use their student's work to help populate their database, the work still remains their property. That way Turnitin cannot legally profit from the sale/transfer of the database. Whether or not the universities protect their student's work like that is another thing though. :P

So in conclusion, it's understandable to be a bit pissed off (I'm glad it wasn't used at my Uni), but it's not that big an issue, the university can do what they like with your work, that's their right. Think of it as an introduction to the real world, with people making profit from your work. ;)

[OldMike]

The fact that cheating has quadrupled recently indicates a need for a system such as this. You don't cheat; that's admirable. How do you feel about some cut-and-paste idiot earning the same grades, diploma, and opportunities as you- without putting in any effort?

"There are better ways to accomplish the same objective..." Such as?

Imagine what an instructor deals with. Assume a class size of 100; ten papers assigned in a semester; would you like to wade through 1000 papers looking just for plagiarized work?

If people weren't so lazy, dishonest, and basically stupid, this sort of thing wouldn't be necessary. But...we're in the era of entitlement; people expect something for nothing, including a college education.

"Hey, I like paid my tuition and I'm supposed to get a degree. I usually show up, so like why do I have to do all that work? It's like, totally hard."

[matclone]

Some good arguments put forth here in response to the original post. GVA-66, you haven't really explained why you are angry about this, or what student "rights" you think are violated. I'm not saying you don't have a legitimate beef, just that I'm not sure what it is.

I really don't understand the concern over copyright violations, other than the apparently hypothetical situation where the company sells its database (Is that in the works? Did I miss something?). I'm not persuaded by the U of Minn. prof's comment that it's a technical violation of copyright law. Show me the harm.

The Rutgers prof said that many students don't seem to understand the appropriate way to use the internet for their papers. That's a concern.

[kevintrangone]

"There are better ways to accomplish the same objective..." Such as?


Hiring good, experienced instructors works well. An experienced teacher who has a good understanding of their students record (we'll use a high school teacher as an example) could pick out the cheaters. I watched it happen in my Sophomore year Spanish class. The teacher stopped the kid mid-presentation, called him out on using freetranslation.com (http://freetranslation.com), and failed him for the project. She stated that it "wasn't like his usual work."

Granted, in a large university setting this method would be retarded; a small university, with small classes could apply it just as easily as my Spanish teacher.

I agree that many people exist as you say they do. It doesn't bother me too much that they graduate with the same degrees as me, because they're still idiots and that will be discovered soon enough. Cheaters have been a part of every generation in one form or another. I accept that.

[George Noble]

We had a Turnitin thing on some of our lab work. I'm not sure if we were supposed to use it. I can't remember if we were told to, and I can't remember if it worked. I'm pretty sure, one way or another, I didn't use it and it didn't matter.

[GVA-66]

Thanks for everyone's replies. I appreciate your input and perspectives.

On a basic, fundamental level, I am angry because I am being forced to enter into a contractual agreement I do not want to in order to get credit for a course required for graduation. I, and other students like me who don't agree with the terms of Turnitin's agreement, are being coerced. Our schools are forcing us to comply in order to receive an education. I've already began a search for other schools that do not require Turnitin, and they are hard to find, so it is not a matter of simply finding another school. I find it morally disgraceful that schools are placing their students in a situation wherein they have NO choice but to enter into a 3rd-party agreement with this company, discontinue their education, or seek another school.

On a more practice level, I don't want my papers stored in the database of a company I have no associations with. Anyone who requests a copy of my papers for comparison reasons to other papers may do so without my knowledge or permission. That is not acceptable to me. I've written several papers wherein I disclosed a lot of personal information; these were family reflection papers and psychology papers that require analyzing your life in some specific context, for example, Erikson's stages of psychosocial development. I had no idea when I wrote that paper their was the potential for it to be uploaded to Turnitin's database, retained indefinitely, and distributed to anyone who requested. I had a presumption of confidentiality between myself, my teacher, and the school. I feel like that was violated or potentially could be violated by the schools use of Turnitin. That is MY fucking life story; I don't want it stored on a 3rd party database to be distributed to anyone who asks. Period. I did not anticipate I would encounter anything of this sort when I resumed my studies.

There are other permutations of the above type of scenario; it just requires a bit of imagination to uncover where this might be problematic. This company not only has rights to store student's papers, but the rights are transferable; if they should sell the company the owners have similar rights. There are possible implications to this that have not manifested yet. But students who don't want to wait around and see how this company, the companies subsidiaries, or subsequent owners, may do business in the future, and in what manner their papers may support these businesses, are not being given the option to opt out.

In a more cynical vein, Turnitin just flags sections that match resources in their database, it is up to the individual instructor to ferret out if the match is true plagiarism or not. Maybe I'm too much of a cynic, but I don't trust the competence of many enough to feel confident that all instructors will evaluate papers fairly and take the time to determine the nature of any sort of match in the "originality report" and if it that match truly constitutes plagiarism or is just some coincidence. Of course this can happen without Turnitin, but the originality report I see as potentially being used as a tool for laziness. Without Turnitin the teacher needed some sort of proof of cheating and a lazy teacher was not likely to spend the time to uncover proof. With Turnitin a lazy teacher can just submit the originality report and consider their job done. Yes, in some cases there very well may have been cheating, but in others, there very well may have not.

The report I received the other day had a 27% originality score. I clicked on a passage that was flagged and the report told me it matched some person's paper in another state somewhere. When I clicked on that I was told I needed to request the passage so that I can make comparisons. This was frustrating because this report was saying a paper I just wrote myself, and I have absolutely no doubt that I did not cheat, matches elements of a paper some other person wrote. This angers me because I now have to rely on my teacher reviewing the matching text and hope that he makes the determination that the match is coincidental or not significant. Why should I even need to worry about that when I know for a fact I didn't cheat in any way? I shouldn't, and no student who does not cheat should be put in that position.

Why should Patrick's friend above be forced to rewrite his paper when through no fault of his own it happened to match in some respect some other paper in Turnitin's database? I read of a student who was upset because he got a failing grade on a paper he did not plagiarize due to Turnitin's originality report. That there are cheaters is undeniable, but why should student's like myself, Patrick's friend, and the student in the preceding example have to pay the price? Nothing, or very little, is fucking original at this point, there are only so many ways to say the same damn thing. Even most creative ideas are amalgams of existing ideas and put existing concepts together in new ways. The potential of similarity between papers would seem to me to be quite high, particularly as the database grows.

Now that I am aware (and I have only become aware of this because a current class mandates students submit their papers first themselves) of this company, on whose database I don't want my papers stored, and the fact that most schools now use this service, I am seriously considering discontinuing my education. I am angry at being put into this position. Yes, I could just do what most people do and just accept that that is life and I readily admit I am likely much too idealistic. But it is wrong that student's must comply with agreements like Turnitin's and have no recourse but to do so in order to receive a degree.

[GVA-66]

Some good arguments put forth here in response to the original post. GVA-66, you haven't really explained why you are angry about this, or what student "rights" you think are violated. I'm not saying you don't have a legitimate beef, just that I'm not sure what it is.

I really don't understand the concern over copyright violations, other than the apparently hypothetical situation where the company sells its database (Is that in the works? Did I miss something?). I'm not persuaded by the U of Minn. prof's comment that it's a technical violation of copyright law. Show me the harm.

The Rutgers prof said that many students don't seem to understand the appropriate way to use the internet for their papers. That's a concern.

Matclone:

If you read the case study I linked to above it will shed light on some of the potential violations to which I speak. After clicking on that link there is an option to download the document (pdf) at the top of the page. I'd be happy to type the issues out here, but it's summarized quite well in that document.

[matclone]

I saw that I would have to down load the case study, and decided not to (not worth the effort). Your most recent post is more persuasive, particularly with regard to your privacy concerns (an issue which you didn't address is whether your name is associate with the work or whether it is anonymous).

You've suggested their database doesn't work very well (efficiently) and that may be true, I don't know. Your reports from Patrick who said someone had to rewrite a paper and someone else you read about who got a failing grade are all at least secondhand and are not necessarily reliable.

You've mentioned, again, an agreement (contract), but I'm not sure what you've agreed to or had to give up. I imagine it's like agreements with credit card cos., which are all written to protect their interests, not yours, and for which there could be some real consquences to you, and for which you (apparently) have no meaningful choice. If that's the situation, then I can understand your concerns. Whatever the case, I recommend that you not let this deter you from school, because education is very important, even if some people don't get it.

I wonder if any of our resident teachers, e.g., brittf, have any thoughts on this.

[OldMike]

... Nothing, or very little, is fucking original at this point, there are only so many ways to say the same damn thing. Even most creative ideas are amalgams of existing ideas and put existing concepts together in new ways. The potential of similarity between papers would seem to me to be quite high, particularly as the database grows....

That is an excellent observation. Your posts have changed my opinion regarding this situation. Nice job- and good luck.

To kevintrangone: you made good points too.

[Platus]

On a basic, fundamental level, I am angry because I am being forced to enter into a contractual agreement I do not want to in order to get credit for a course required for graduation. I, and other students like me who don't agree with the terms of Turnitin's agreement, are being coerced. Our schools are forcing us to comply in order to receive an education.This sort of thing is a common feature of higher education. If you are working in a university lab and make a lucrative discovery, you don't own the rights to it. There is much less $ to be made in my field, but I was rather upset when one of my teachers published some curriculum that my peers and I wrote and informed us, after-the-fact, that the material was the property of the department and that they didn't need our consent to do with it as they pleased.

[Rorschach]

I'd like to suggest you take a step back and take a more objective look at the situation. You're willing to risk your education and future employment over what is essentially a pretty minor point. Yes, it's frustrating to be put into this situation, but you'll need to get used to frustrating situations in life. My employer screwed me out of £100 a few months back. I could have quit on the spot there and then out of principle, but that would have been counter-productive. Roll with the punches, and learn from them, don't cut off the nose to spite the face, so to speak.

If you have legitimate concerns, and it sounds like you do, then raise it with your personal tutor, head of department, whoever. Find out who's in charge and try to reason with them. They're not doing this to screw you over, they're doing it to try and improve the service they provide.
Perhaps a petition? Protest group? Students just aren't as political as they used to be. ;)

[Tiburon]

As a professor, I wish I had access to something like this. We have 1-2 cases of plagiarism each year in our small graduate-level program, and the only way we "caught" them was to google around suspicious phrases from the paper. Who knows how many cases we miss each year.

[matclone]

I'm a bit curious. Why do you assume you are missing some cases of plagiarism? Evidently something in the suspect papers triggered your review, and you did this without the services of a third party.

I suppose the use of the internet and advances in word processing software have made the ability to plagiarize so much easier. But that doesn't necessarily mean that plagiarism is on the rise. Or is it?

[Tiburon]

Why do you assume you are missing some cases of plagiarism? Evidently something in the suspect papers triggered your review, and you did this without the services of a third party.

Yes, something raised our suspicions and we were able to find the original source. But it isn't always that easy. Last semester I received a paper that I am quite sure was not the student's own work, but I wasn't able to prove it.

[Patrick]

A few years ago I caught a cheater when I graded a big (~150+ person) intro physics lecture. I know to this day that he was cheating and I know who from (though not whether they were cooperating) but when I took it to the professor he told me that without real, rock-solid proof (like catching him do it) it was almost impossible to elevate the accusation to an honor committee hearing. Most professors I've spoken to since say that it's about as serious to charge a student as it is to cheat so you've got to be right.

Something like turnitin helps get around all of those problems... enforces integrity of work, catches and prevents plagiarism, and so on. Not wanting to agree to a contract is understandable but it makes the whole enterprise work better for everyone. It's hard for me not to get behind it.

[GVA-66]

I saw that I would have to down load the case study, and decided not to (not worth the effort). Your most recent post is more persuasive, particularly with regard to your privacy concerns (an issue which you didn't address is whether your name is associate with the work or whether it is anonymous).

You've suggested their database doesn't work very well (efficiently) and that may be true, I don't know. Your reports from Patrick who said someone had to rewrite a paper and someone else you read about who got a failing grade are all at least secondhand and are not necessarily reliable.

You've mentioned, again, an agreement (contract), but I'm not sure what you've agreed to or had to give up. I imagine it's like agreements with credit card cos., which are all written to protect their interests, not yours, and for which there could be some real consquences to you, and for which you (apparently) have no meaningful choice. If that's the situation, then I can understand your concerns. Whatever the case, I recommend that you not let this deter you from school, because education is very important, even if some people don't get it.

I wonder if any of our resident teachers, e.g., brittf, have any thoughts on this.

Regarding privacy, my school requires a cover sheet be attached to all papers that clearly shows name, address, school, and class/instructor. In researching Turnitin, I have come across some schools that tell the instructors to advise students that these types of identifying pieces of information be stripped from any documents uploaded to Turnitin. I was not advised by my school to strip any self-identifying information from my papers. Further, as of yet, I do not know if the papers I wrote containing a lot of personal information were uploaded or not without my knowledge (I have emailed the teachers of those classes asking if my papers were uploaded and I'm currently awaiting a reply). Even with no identifying information in the body of the paper, the student's names are associated with the papers; I don't trust that the database cannot be hacked into or compromised in the future. To think it can't be is naive.

In reference to the service not working well, here is one teacher's evaluation of the service who found it to be less than effective for its intended purpose:

Using Turnitin at UCLA (http://www.oid.ucla.edu/training/trainingarticles/turnitin)

The teacher who wrote the above made some very good points in his evaluation of the service in regard to it's practicality, as well as the moral/ethical implications of its use.

In reference to the agreement I am required to accept, here is a link to a webpage which gives a quick synopsis (is that redundant?) of the main points of contention re: rights violations:

U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals Rules...
(http://www.iposgoode.ca/2009/06/us-circuit-court-of-appeals-rules-that-turnitins-fight-against-plagiarism-does-not-violate/)
From the above, it appears students agree to "grant Turnitin a perpetual, world-wide, irrevocable license to reproduce, transmit, archive, and otherwise use the student papers."


That is an excellent observation. Your posts have changed my opinion regarding this situation. Nice job- and good luck.

To kevintrangone: you made good points too.

One down :)


This sort of thing is a common feature of higher education. If you are working in a university lab and make a lucrative discovery, you don't own the rights to it. There is much less $ to be made in my field, but I was rather upset when one of my teachers published some curriculum that my peers and I wrote and informed us, after-the-fact, that the material was the property of the department and that they didn't need our consent to do with it as they pleased.

Perhaps this is good for me to learn now, as I am generally not amenable to these types of arrangements.


I'd like to suggest you take a step back and take a more objective look at the situation. You're willing to risk your education and future employment over what is essentially a pretty minor point. Yes, it's frustrating to be put into this situation, but you'll need to get used to frustrating situations in life. My employer screwed me out of £100 a few months back. I could have quit on the spot there and then out of principle, but that would have been counter-productive. Roll with the punches, and learn from them, don't cut off the nose to spite the face, so to speak.

If you have legitimate concerns, and it sounds like you do, then raise it with your personal tutor, head of department, whoever. Find out who's in charge and try to reason with them. They're not doing this to screw you over, they're doing it to try and improve the service they provide.
Perhaps a petition? Protest group? Students just aren't as political as they used to be. ;)

I have an email in to the head of the department, and will proceed based upon the answers I receive.

I am not going to submit to being coerced. I see taking a stand against something like this as being more important in the grand scheme of things. If I begin to view this in the context of just doing what I have to do to get my degree, it is a very small step from that to saying "fuck it, let me just cheat this one time...everyone does it...you need to play the game to get ahead in life." Whether they realize it or not, schools are teaching the wrong thing by using this service. They are sending a message that contains within it the very same mentality that gives rise to cheating in the first place. And besides, I love learning too much to have that ruined by attending school.


As a professor, I wish I had access to something like this. We have 1-2 cases of plagiarism each year in our small graduate-level program, and the only way we "caught" them was to google around suspicious phrases from the paper. Who knows how many cases we miss each year.

That this service provides some questionable benefits to teachers does not negate the potential violations to student's rights.


A few years ago I caught a cheater when I graded a big (~150+ person) intro physics lecture. I know to this day that he was cheating and I know who from (though not whether they were cooperating) but when I took it to the professor he told me that without real, rock-solid proof (like catching him do it) it was almost impossible to elevate the accusation to an honor committee hearing. Most professors I've spoken to since say that it's about as serious to charge a student as it is to cheat so you've got to be right.

Something like Turnitin helps get around all of those problems... enforces integrity of work, catches and prevents plagiarism, and so on. Not wanting to agree to a contract is understandable but it makes the whole enterprise work better for everyone. It's hard for me not to get behind it.


The very least schools should do is disclose fully to each student the terms of the agreement a student must sign with Turnitin prior to the student signing up for a class whose teacher uses this service. The student should be afforded the opportunity to make an informed decision beforehand, it should not be sprung upon them after wards. Most people are not as neurotic as I am, and will not likely research what the implications are of the agreements they sign. Many students may be quite young and not practiced in scrutinizing legal agreements, so it should be made explicit to them by their schools. Adults rarely take the time, let alone kids.

I don't agree it makes it better for everyone. I makes it easier for the teachers, and it makes Turnitin money. It is a lot more ambiguous in regard to the benefit the student's obtain.

I found this policy by Rowan University which seems reasonable in that it requires disclosure to students regarding Turnitin's use and allows students to opt out:

Rowan Resolution Policy (http://www.rowan.edu/president/senate/committees/committee_files/TurnitinRes080512-1.pdf)

[matclone]

In reference to the agreement I am required to accept, here is a link to a webpage which gives a quick synopsis (is that redundant?) of the main points of contention re: rights violations:

U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals Rules...
(http://www.iposgoode.ca/2009/06/us-circuit-court-of-appeals-rules-that-turnitins-fight-against-plagiarism-does-not-violate/)
From the above, it appears students agree to "grant Turnitin a perpetual, world-wide, irrevocable license to reproduce, transmit, archive, and otherwise use the student papers."

No, it's not redundant. A synopsis should be quick rather than wieldy.

GVA, you've made a number of good arguments for your position, but the "synopsis" you reference is one person's one-sided argument that, on its face, doesn't seem very persuasive. For example, he makes the hyperbolic statement that Turnitin has "blatantly violated all three [copyright] laws", when it appears that a U.S. District and Appeals court have supported Turnitin's position in a case (which the author does not bother to cite to--perhaps because they say something contrary to his view).

In any case, good luck in your challenge. If nothing else, you will probably learn something from it.

[GVA-66]

No, it's not redundant. A synopsis should be quick rather than wieldy.

GVA, you've made a number of good arguments for your position, but the "synopsis" you reference is one person's one-sided argument that, on its face, doesn't seem very persuasive. For example, he makes the hyperbolic statement that Turnitin has "blatantly violated all three [copyright] laws", when it appears that a U.S. District and Appeals court have supported Turnitin's position in a case (which the author does not bother to cite to--perhaps because they say something contrary to his view).

In any case, good luck in your challenge. If nothing else, you will probably learn something from it.


Thanks, Matclone. The author of the synopsis is the author of the .pdf I linked to earlier...everything is cited and expounded on in that document.

If you're interested, here is a link to the decision:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/4th/081424p.pdf

I've already learned from it more than I would have liked; all it has served to do is make me more disgusted with the general state of things.

[Rorschach]

I am not going to submit to being coerced. I see taking a stand against something like this as being more important in the grand scheme of things. If I begin to view this in the context of just doing what I have to do to get my degree, it is a very small step from that to saying "fuck it, let me just cheat this one time...everyone does it...you need to play the game to get ahead in life." Whether they realize it or not, schools are teaching the wrong thing by using this service. They are sending a message that contains within it the very same mentality that gives rise to cheating in the first place. And besides, I love learning too much to have that ruined by attending school.


By all means fight the good fight; protest about Turnitin and try to raise awareness on the issue, but try to keep some perspective.
1) Quitting university over this wouldn't achieve anything beyond screwing yourself over. You'd be able to pat yourself on the back for "sticking to your principles", but you still wouldn't have a degree, and the university would still use Turnitin.
2) Very little in life is black and white, and this is a good example. Yes there are privacy issues, but it's helping to dissuade plagiarism, and also freeing up lecturers time to actually teach.
3) There's a lot to be said for having a utalitarianist view on life. You may risk corrupting your beliefs along the way, but you can often achieve more good in the end.
4) I would be protesting alongside you if I studied at your uni, but compared to other issues, this is a relatively minor one. It's hardly segregation, it's a third party having a copy of your university-owned essays. Don't let this detract from your actual work, or protesting larger issues else the terrorists win, so to speak.

I doubt you'll be able to stop your university to stop using Turnitin entirely, especially since they've already paid the money for it. You may, however, be able to get them to change their use of it; raising awareness and putting more safeguards in place to protect student's privacy.

[GVA-66]

By all means fight the good fight; protest about Turnitin and try to raise awareness on the issue, but try to keep some perspective.
1) Quitting university over this wouldn't achieve anything beyond screwing yourself over. You'd be able to pat yourself on the back for "sticking to your principles", but you still wouldn't have a degree, and the university would still use Turnitin.
2) Very little in life is black and white, and this is a good example. Yes there are privacy issues, but it's helping to dissuade plagiarism, and also freeing up lecturers time to actually teach.
3) There's a lot to be said for having a utalitarianist view on life. You may risk corrupting your beliefs along the way, but you can often achieve more good in the end.
4) I would be protesting alongside you if I studied at your uni, but compared to other issues, this is a relatively minor one. It's hardly segregation, it's a third party having a copy of your university-owned essays. Don't let this detract from your actual work, or protesting larger issues else the terrorists win, so to speak.

I doubt you'll be able to stop your university to stop using Turnitin entirely, especially since they've already paid the money for it. You may, however, be able to get them to change their use of it; raising awareness and putting more safeguards in place to protect student's privacy.

Rorschach,

I see a bit of cynicism in your post :)

[Rorschach]

Cynicism, realism, whatever. ;)

[Patrick]

What everyone is getting at is this: what's the harm? Are you going to suffer some physical, financial, or psychological damage as a result of this? I'm pretty sure you're not. You are the one who introduced the legal aspect to this discussion, so let me do some mental jiu-jitsu: what's your tort?

I agree that the "idea" of entering into a contract unwillingly is a bad one but what I think most of us are tapping into is that your life is going to be absolutely no different than it would have been otherwise. In other words, there's probably no harm at all. And in that case... pretty much anything else you could latch on to is a much better way to spend your time and energy.

[GVA-66]

Cynicism, realism, whatever. ;)

LOL. Admittedly my quip was a bit obvious given your screen name.


What everyone is getting at is this: what's the harm? Are you going to suffer some physical, financial, or psychological damage as a result of this? I'm pretty sure you're not.

First, forgive me if the following doesn't make a lot of sense. I've had a bit too much wine tonight, and since my tolerance is low since I can't afford to drink much lately, I might slur my writing. That and one of my dogs keeps barking at me to scratch his ass and the other keeps dropping his Kong toy in my lap to throw it for him making it even harder to concentrate while slightly inebriated.

I understand what everyone is getting at, and I do understand and appreciate their reasoning. It is, as Rorschach countered above, quite realistic advice. I understand, believe me, I understand.

I don't know what sort of damage may result to myself or another student in the future; that is yet to be seen, and at this point what ever damage that could occur is speculative, as is that no damage could possibly occur.

That harm has occurred or will occur is not the issue and is secondary. The issue is everyone should be free to enter into a contractual agreement free of duress and/or coercion. Terms of that contractual agreement should be fully disclosed so that an informed decision could be made as to whether one wants to enter into the agreement or not. That did not happen in my case, and I suspect it is not happening in many other instances with other students.

I believe people in this country should have the freedom of choice when it comes to entering into contracts. Very simple. I believe the terms of those contracts should be clear and disclosed so an informed decision can be made. Simple as well. I don't believe students (or anyone) should be coerced into entering into a contract, Simpleton (LOL...sorry, simple was getting too redundant).



You are the one who introduced the legal aspect to this discussion, so let me do some mental jiu-jitsu: what's your tort?

Jiu-jitsu is not my forte, I studied Shorin-Ryu. That said, tort law is extremely complex. It never ceases to amaze me how things that seem to be so obvious and so straight forward become so fucking convoluted and twisted within our legal system. I'm not a lawyer, and in the dealings I have had with the legal system representing myself (all successfully thank God) I have learned that our legal system is quite complex. For me to speak intelligently on my or any other student's legal claims I'd have to take some time to research the matter well beyond what I have already. And shit like this really does make me want to become a lawyer myself.

Suffice it to say I have read enough commentary by lawyers who are knowledgeable on the subject to lead me to believe the courts ruling/s might have been flawed and might be challenged in the future. I hope it is. Another perspective is that the schools are the ones who should have been named, not Turnitin, and that is where the attorney representing the students erred. Therefore, a lawsuit against a school might prevail. Time will tell.

As I said above, I have no damage at the moment other than feeling coerced and that my "rights" were violated by it not being disclosed to me that my paper was going to be retained on a 3rd party database, without my permission or knowledge, indefinitely for use by the owners of that database, in the pursuit of their business objectives. I don't want that. My right, and perhaps I actually don't have this right, to chose and decide if I wanted to comply was taken away from me. If I or you don't have the right to chose what can happen with our own works it's a scary state of affairs, don't you think?


I agree that the "idea" of entering into a contract unwillingly is a bad one but what I think most of us are tapping into is that your life is going to be absolutely no different than it would have been otherwise. In other words, there's probably no harm at all. And in that case... pretty much anything else you could latch on to is a much better way to spend your time and energy.

This is a moral issue for me. I realize in the grand scheme of things it is relatively slight in comparison to a great many other issues. But I still find it egregious, and I still immensely dislike being coerced. These are very basic fundamental rights; I don't think "the 'idea' of entering into a contract unwillingly" should be cast aside so lightly as not being significant or of only minor concern. It may seem like nothing in this particular context, but it is far from so. What will be next?

I spoke with the department head today and she will be bringing my concerns and suggestions to the appropriate parties within the school. At the very least maybe future students will be told as a condition of their enrollment that their papers are uploaded and stored in Turnitin's database, and the terms of Turnitin's agreement disclosed to them so they have the very basic right to decide if they want to comply and be bound by the agreement and/or have their paper's uploaded directly by a teacher. As for me, I am very close to completely dropping out of society at this point. Just looking for a way, but that is another post for another day in another thread.