Starr Model in PP

[JamesH]

I would like an explanation on just how the Starr model works if anyone would mind. The one described in PP. I think how it works is like this. Please correct me where I'm wrong.

Training starts with one heavy day, a light day, and a medium day. If we were to take the squat for example we would squat with a moderate weight on day one say for 5x5. On day two we would squat one heavy set 5, and day 3 we would squat say 2 light sets of 5. As you progress the first workout would get heavy enough to the point where the week is now heavy heavy light as appose to medium heavy light. Once progress slows at this point you add a day. Now this is where I'm confused. In PP the example given on page 199 for 3 heavy days has the second heavy day right after the first. So does this mean you would squat heavy 5x5 one day and right after squat say a heavy triple the next day? I think maybe not because on page 173 it states, "As a general rule, squats will be done every workout until the trainee goes to 4 days per week." But at the same time I don't see why not.



If I haven't been clear on anything just ask and I'll try to clarify.

[zepled37]

Starr model as I understand it is based on intensity variation mainly. So as you note, there are heavy, medium and light days. Once adaptation stops is when you would transition to another heavy day or to adding an additional day to the program. This is assuming all other recovery factors are in order of. Of course prior to this type of change, you could also change your programming (sets, reps, exercises) and stay on 3 days to see if that helps.

On your example of two heavy days in a row, my interpretation is that yes, you would squat both days. The point I believe Rip is making in your quote is that you don't squat 4 days per week, but you do squat 3 days per week. (So, if you are only working out 3 days, you squat every workout).

[JamesH]

So just so I get this right. Once you go to a 4 days a week, 3 heavy 1 light, you you would indeed squat each day in some form. Whether one of the days is a front squat or not. So as an example.

monday squat 5x5
tuesday squat one heavy triple
thursday squat 5 heavy singles
friday light squat 2 sets of 5

This I'm taking from page 199.

But like I stated before on page 173 Rip says that "As a general rule squats will be done every workout until the tranee goes to 4 days per week." Now if this is not in reference to the starr model, I could only think it would be, now that I think about it, a mention of the split routine model. Am I correct?

[PMDL]

In Starr's articles when he talks about adding a 4th day he says it's mainly for lighter exercises like OHP and high pulls and then calf work for legs. I don't see why you couldn't eventually build up to another day of squatting if that's your thing, but I don't get the impression it's mandatory.

[drlvegas]

PP2 has an example in the back. Too long to post here.

[zepled37]

So just so I get this right. Once you go to a 4 days a week, 3 heavy 1 light, you you would indeed squat each day in some form. Whether one of the days is a front squat or not. So as an example.

monday squat 5x5
tuesday squat one heavy triple
thursday squat 5 heavy singles
friday light squat 2 sets of 5

This I'm taking from page 199.

But like I stated before on page 173 Rip says that "As a general rule squats will be done every workout until the tranee goes to 4 days per week." Now if this is not in reference to the starr model, I could only think it would be, now that I think about it, a mention of the split routine model. Am I correct?

I think you are not interpreting this correctly. "As a general rule squats will be done every workout until the trainee goes to 4 days per week."

This means if you are doing 4 days per week workouts you will most likely NOT be squatting all 4 days. I suppose you could if you could handle it, but I interpret this to mean generally you wouldn't squat more than 3 days in a week.

[JamesH]

So then what is the purpose of adding days if your not adding in another squat day? Or put another way, how is the squat benifited by adding another day if that day does not contain any squating. Of course I'm just using the squat as an example I could say the same for any exercise in a similar position. No one has to answer this if its too long. Not that I wouldn't appreciate it, I just don't want to take up too much of anyone else's time.

What I'm trying to do here is get a decent understanding of how training works. At this time the Starr method as explained in practical programming is something I don't understand yet.

Isn't the Starr method the method used once the texas method no longer works? Or am I mixing apples and oranges. If not is it then that once the texas method no longer works that you would be considered advanced? At least advanced enough to use 5x5 twice a week in a cycle like explained in PP. I've got a long way to go before I've exausted weekly progress (the most I've squated for 5x5 is 275). And I would like to know just how weekly progress stops working. If it is with a program like the texas method or the Starr model.

Maybe this is too much to ask in a forum. I may just have to wait for the second edition of PP.

[stronger]

I may just have to wait for the second edition of PP.

PP is currently in its second edition

[Baker]

if you are going to buy a book, buy the source, starr's "strongest shall survive". he also has articles online & in milo and ironman magazine, if you are looking for more.

you can do his program at any time, it doesn't have to follow the 'texas method' or whatever. the power cleans, benches & squats are the starting program, then you can add presses, inclines, shrugs, high pulls, etc as you advance. it's all in his book.

i know in PP it is labeled 'intermediate', but starr started his people with it.

[matclone]

What I'm trying to do here is get a decent understanding of how training works. At this time the Starr method as explained in practical programming is something I don't understand yet.

Isn't the Starr method the method used once the texas method no longer works? Or am I mixing apples and oranges.

You're mixing apples and oranges. I believe both of these programs are listing under intermediate programming in PP. They are not a progression, as in one follows the other; they are just different ways to get results.

[matclone]

Maybe this is too much to ask in a forum. I may just have to wait for the second edition of PP.

I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that he didn't change his explanation of the Starr model from one volume to the next. It's not clear to me what you don't understand about the Starr model. As zepled explained, it's about varying the intensity and volume between days.

[JamesH]

The new edition does have some extra examples and I here its polished up. My edition is falling apart as well so it would be nice to have a copy where the index isn't missing and such.

If you look on page 199 you will probably understand my problem. Quote "for a week with three heavy days, a good organization would be 5 heavy sets of 5 across on Monday, one heavy triple on Tuesday, and 5 heavy singles on Thursday." Now is what is said here to be used with the same exercise? If it is then what does on page 173 refer to when Rip says "As a general rule, squats will be done every workout until the trainee goes to 4 days per week."

Understand?

[JamesH]

Of course on Friday you would have a light day.

[matclone]

Sorry, I don't have the books before me. I will look at your references tonight.

[Anthony D]

It's like this:

Your heavy day you work up to essentially a max of 5 reps, kind of like in DeFranco's WS4SB,

Heavy Squat : 5x185, 5x200, 5x225, 5x250, 5x275 for example, albeit the numbers are low for an intermediate

Light Squat : work up to your third set of heavy day, so it would be like 5x135, 5x150, 5x175, 5x200, 5x225

Medium Squat : work up to your 4th set on heavy day, so it would be like 5x....up to 5x250

Come next week set a new PR on heavy day and adjust accordingly.

Both the TM and Starr model are examples of intermediate programming. Use whichever you like more.

[JamesH]

Anthony

The Starr model as explained in PP advances with additional days. Starting with a heavy, moderate, and light days. As it advances it goes to heavy heavy light then heavy medium heavy light, then heavy heavy heavy light etc. PP says that for most athletes wont have to go beyond 4 days a week. My question see above you will need the book to understand...

[PMDL]

For fuck's sake. Thinking is not this goddamn hard.

[zepled37]

If you look on page 199 you will probably understand my problem. Quote "for a week with three heavy days, a good organization would be 5 heavy sets of 5 across on Monday, one heavy triple on Tuesday, and 5 heavy singles on Thursday." Now is what is said here to be used with the same exercise? If it is then what does on page 173 refer to when Rip says "As a general rule, squats will be done every workout until the trainee goes to 4 days per week."

Understand?


Sorry, like some others have said, I don't really know what you don't understand at this point. Not sure why you are still confused about this "general rule..." statement. I think the way I described it is clear.

Maybe you just need to reread the book a few more times. I do agree though that the Starr model could have been explained in more detail, but if you read the book enough, you will get some idea of what to do.

To your question above, yes, I would say this is for the same exercise.

To your question a few posts ago, extra days are added to increase volume. Volume is added when progress stops and it has been determined that other recovery components are not the reason for lack of progress and extra work is needed to force adaptation. This is why a 4th day of workouts without squats may still help. You would still do some work for the legs this day, but probably not squats. Extra work would still drive adaptation.

Reread the book a few times and you should be able to figure some of this out.

[matclone]

If you look on page 199 you will probably understand my problem. Quote "for a week with three heavy days, a good organization would be 5 heavy sets of 5 across on Monday, one heavy triple on Tuesday, and 5 heavy singles on Thursday." Now is what is said here to be used with the same exercise?

Yes.


If it is then what does on page 173 refer to when Rip says "As a general rule, squats will be done every workout until the trainee goes to 4 days per week."


In the part you quote from page 173 (we're talking about the 1st Ed. of PP), Rip is talking about general considerations for the intermediate lifter, not specifically about the Starr model.

If you're asking whether one can squat 4 days per week, I would say the answer is yes (for an intermediate lifter using the Starr model).

As others have suggested, it's helpful to re-read the material. I know it's sometimes taken me several goes before I understood an idea or principle.

[JamesH]

Well thank you for your time I think that answers my question.

[Smack]

If you are confused about the Starr model then perhaps you ought to buy Starr's book The Strongest Shall Survive.

[ph1lgiii]

Would this kind of template work using sets across on all three days and simply varying the loads? For example:

Monday:
Squat 4x5 85%

Wednesday:
Squat 4x5 70%

Friday:
Squat 4x5 80%

[rhymer]

Would this kind of template work using sets across on all three days and simply varying the loads? For example:

Monday:
Squat 4x5 85%

Wednesday:
Squat 4x5 70%

Friday:
Squat 4x5 80%

What Starr did was no percentage based, as I understand it. He just ramped people up using obvious plate based increments - 135, 155, 185, 205, 225, etc. etc. There are various approaches to varying the load across the three days, but it's not percentage of 1RM based.

[zepled37]

What Starr did was no percentage based, as I understand it. He just ramped people up using obvious plate based increments - 135, 155, 185, 205, 225, etc. etc. There are various approaches to varying the load across the three days, but it's not percentage of 1RM based.


This seems completely wrong compared to how I read both PPST and Starr's Strongest Shall Survive. In Strongest Shall Survive Starr descibes medium days as 90% of the heavy day and light days as 80% of the heavy days.

In PPST, the whole point of of the Starr model is variation of intensity as I read it.

[H0neyBe4r]

The Starr Model example - routine in PP 2ed has the week beginning with the light day, followed by the heavy day and ends with the medium day. Three worksets across are used on the light and the medium day, two on the heavy day.

So it is practically SS with a light, a medium and a heavy day instead of three heavy days, which makes me wonder why not more people use it when becoming intermediates? Is it considered to be inferior to the texas method?

Edit: I just noticed that the trainee in the example workout droped one workset on the medium day at some point.

[matclone]

The Starr Model example... is practically SS with a light, a medium and a heavy day instead of three heavy days, which makes me wonder why not more people use it when becoming intermediates? Is it considered to be inferior to the texas method?



Rip never said it was "inferior", and the fact he included a discussion of the Starr model in PPST probably means he endorses it. Clearly, it's just another way (there not being one single way) to achieve progress. If more people use the Texas method, then it's probably because it's a little bit simpler than Starr, the latter requiring that you calculate what light and/or medium means.

[H0neyBe4r]

Not more difficult then calculating your light squats and light benches for recovery day on the Texas Method imo.

But maybe a lot of people think of Bill Starr's popular 5x5 with the sets ramped up when hearing Starr Model, and want to continue with a method that uses work sets across, which Rippetoe has always described as kind of superior to ramped up sets.

[matclone]

Not more difficult then calculating your light squats and light benches for recovery day on the Texas Method imo.

Perhaps not.


But maybe a lot of people think of Bill Starr's popular 5x5 with the sets ramped up when hearing Starr Model, and want to continue with a method that uses work sets across, which Rippetoe has always described as kind of superior to ramped up sets.

Not sure where you get the "ramped up" sets from. See zepled's most recent post above.

People talk here more about the Texas method. I think it's just better known. I believe it's also mentioned in Paul Kelso's classic: Powerlifting--Texas Style.

[Baker]

in 'strongest shall survive', starr doesn't do sets across on the big 3, they are all 'ramped'. the only exception to this off the top of my head is when he talks about the doug hepburn version in the bench press, doing 5 singles across, followed by 5x5 across.

[zepled37]

\

But maybe a lot of people think of Bill Starr's popular 5x5 with the sets ramped up when hearing Starr Model, and want to continue with a method that uses work sets across, which Rippetoe has always described as kind of superior to ramped up sets.


I agree that my impression from Rip is that he likes sets across as being capable of provided more (maybe better?) stress, but I don't think this is critical to the "Starr model" programming. The critical point to the Starr model I think is the intensity variation between days. And adding volume by adding additional days.

I do wish Rip would have elaborated more on this in PPST2 though.

[matclone]

I looked at PPST last night, and Rip describes using sets across with the Starr model, both in his narrative discussion, and in the examples shown at the end of the book.