Shane Hamman

[stef]

The first video interview in the Starting Strength Series is up.

Shane Hamman (http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/video/sss_ham1/)

[Gary Gibson]

Oh Sweet Lord.

I love you guys so much.

[Sami]

I loved it. I'm definitely going to look forward to these.

When can we expect the next interview?

[Tiburon]

Highlights from part 1: 36" vert at 360 lb bodyweight? 800 lb squat followed by 5 backflips? 1008 lb squat at a meet? Jesus H!!

That must be one strong director's chair.

[gmehilos]

Outstanding! And very informative. Looking forward to Part 2.

[vacass]

So who is Shane interviewing next? ;)

[Dastardly]

I lol'ed at the music and background, looked like a infomercial.

But it is cool that you guys went to some effort setting it up for a old school TV look.

I have always found the phenomena that is Mr. Hamman quite awe-inspiring.

[Phil Stevens]

Looked great guys.

[Sami]

http://bearmythology.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/shane-hamman-leaps.jpg

[Mark Rippetoe]

Outstanding! And very informative. Looking forward to Part 2.

All 4 parts are up now.

[LondonTiger]

I guess shane could make it as a basketball player if he had ever lost interest in powerlifting.

[Sami]

I guess shane could make it as a basketball player if he had ever lost interest in powerlifting.

He did lose interest in powerlifting... and became an Olympic lifter. Did you watch the interview?

[jeremyfirth]

Love the video, but I just have one request for the person editing these vids: Please make the audio of the person speaking come out of the same speaker as the side of the screen they're on. In this case, Rip is on the right-hand side, but his audio comes out the left side and vice versa. It's probably not distracting to anyone else, but because I'm a video editor, it was pretty distracting to me. A safer bet is to just pan them up the middle in post. Or you can slightly put the person speaking on the right (in this case, Rip) in the right speaker, and slightly pan Shane onto the left side, but having them pushed all the way over, and having it reversed, was pretty distracting. One other note, pulling them about two more feet away from the background helps make the picture feel not so "flat". Another trick you can use, is to put a light ND filter over your camera (something like a 3 or a 6) and iris way open. That will throw the background out of focus, to bring attention to the forefront.

These are just stupid little technical things. I love the idea, and the music was hilarious! Felt like I was watching a local cable TV noon news show. And seeing both Rip and Shane sitting there reminds me that I need to go eat something.

[Scrofula]

That was fun. The most surprising part to me was when he described the training protocol at OTC. I know these folks are genetic outliers, but how do they recover from eight training sessions a week? Is this typical of elite strength athletes?

[Mark Rippetoe]

If they're sleeping enough, eating enough, and not working a job it is.

[Tim Lofton]

Man, I am obviously clueless to the athleticism and athletes involved in the strength sports. I had heard of Shane and had heard of his olympic competition, but knew nothing of him beyond that. This was a nice bio and insight into his past and training. I thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated this and hope to see more of these interviews. Thanks.

[homerj742]

Really great interview, I really learned a lot.

[Matt Shannon]

Definitely enjoyed the interview coach and really appreciate the work youve done over the years to keep strength training alive.

Great discussion of how our teams are missing a sufficient baseline of strength.

Are these interviews going to be done once a week, once a month?

I hear youve got some great folks like Wendler and Welbourn coming in. Do you have a SSS interview schedule posted somewhere that Ive missed? If not could you share who's coming up for next few interviews?

Thanks again Rip looking forward to more interviews.

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

Rip looks 90's small next to Shane! :D

Awesome interview. Thanks Rip!

[RobertFontaine]

Shane is clearly an amazing guy and it was an interesting first interview. This is intended to be contructive criticism... I think Mark dominated the interview. I would really like to have heard Shane's opinions from Shane. I felt that Mark asked and answered his own questions a few too many times.

[msupt]

In the third part they started talking about some seriously strong weightlifters who did not have great technique, but were so strong that they compensated for their relatively poor technique. I tried to look them up but since their names were Bulgarian or Russian, or some eastern european block country I could not spell/find them. Could you please post their names so I could look up some more information on them.

Thanks

[bjvinson]

Rip,

Thanks for going to the trouble and expense of putting this interview together. It was informative and entertaining. Thanks to Shane too for driving down to be interviewed.

He has got to be one of the widest and thickest men on the planet.

[Dastardly]

Just watched it to the end. Was a cool interview, but I think everyone was waiting to hear if Shane can dunk? :)

[Sal Webber]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOA5RbAQWA8

Here's Rezazadeh (one of the guys referenced). This is the C&J that was referenced. I never noticed how short his arms were until this interview. Interesting. Maybe my short arms which is a bit of a disadvantage on DLs will serve me well in the O-lifts.

Outstanding interview Rip! I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Love the video, but I just have one request for the person editing these vids: Please make the audio of the person speaking come out of the same speaker as the side of the screen they're on. In this case, Rip is on the right-hand side, but his audio comes out the left side and vice versa. It's probably not distracting to anyone else, but because I'm a video editor, it was pretty distracting to me. A safer bet is to just pan them up the middle in post. Or you can slightly put the person speaking on the right (in this case, Rip) in the right speaker, and slightly pan Shane onto the left side, but having them pushed all the way over, and having it reversed, was pretty distracting. One other note, pulling them about two more feet away from the background helps make the picture feel not so "flat". Another trick you can use, is to put a light ND filter over your camera (something like a 3 or a 6) and iris way open. That will throw the background out of focus, to bring attention to the forefront.


The editor told me to tell you thanks. We'll correct these technical problems and a couple of others soon and have the fixed versions up next week.


Shane is clearly an amazing guy and it was an interesting first interview. This is intended to be constructive criticism... I think Mark dominated the interview. I would really like to have heard Shane's opinions from Shane. I felt that Mark asked and answered his own questions a few too many times.

These interviews are designed to be more like conversations between two lifters/athletes/coaches than the typical interview you see between an athlete and a dumbass sportscaster that has nothing to contribute to the conversation. This way, more information per unit of time results. Had I not asked Shane in detail about his experiences from an informed position, which required that I explain my position at some length and which you interpret as dominating the interview, you would know less about Shane than you do now. I suppose I could have just asked Shane how he felt about being at the Olympics, and how his family felt about him being at the Olympics, and how he felt about not winning, and how he felt about being strong, and how it felt to be so big. But that's not the way I do an interview. I hope it was useful anyway.

[MAD9692]

I don't agree with Roberts opinion at all. The interview flowed very smoothly and Rips personality brought out some conclusions from Shane that I doubt he would have just came out and said.
For Example:
Typical Broadcaster: How old where you when you knew you were strong enough to have a shot at making the olympic team?
Shane: You know we just dont train the Deadlift enough at the compound to make ourselves stronger.

....see what I'm saying? It would have never came up.

On the flip side I can say that Charles Staley has a habit of talking over/more than his guests on his radio show. I just got done listening to Wendlers interview and I had to turn it off after 15 minutes because Charles just kept talking about his own opinions instead of just letting his guest speak.

[zepled37]

Great interview. Really enjoyed it. Looking forward to future installments.

Anyone else notice that Shane's posture seemed really good. Guess it's because mine sucks or at least seems so. In particular he didn't seem to have much tightness in his IT bands, hips or legs in general.

[Gilroy]

I really enjoyed the interview. Shane taught at a Crossfit O-lift seminar I went to last summer and at the time I barely had a concept of who he was. He's much more imposing in person. You'd hardly believe he would be flexible enough to really do the lifts, but he sure can! Good teacher too.

[Bloodninja666]

I looked up the Rezazadah front-squat video mentioned in the interview, dead lord...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkSN3f-a3Ok&feature=related

[jep6095]

A. Rumor has it that Shane Hamman also has mad snowboarding skills...picture that.

B. I strenuously disagree with the assesment of Charles' Iron Radio interview with Wendler. I actually listened to the whole thing and found his clarifying of the program helpful.

But what do I know...we actually watch Curling on t.v. up here.
jp

[Aslin]

I looked up the Rezazadah front-squat video mentioned in the interview, dead lord...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkSN3f-a3Ok&feature=related

Thanks, I've been trying to get his name right for ages....

[stl rick]

Is there a reason the USA Olympic Training Center has become enamored with technique over strength training?

[lorihultman]

The main criticism of the OTC from folks in the weightlifting community has been that they focus TOO MUCH on strength. They squat and pull, squat and pull, squat and pull. Almost everyone who goes there gets much stronger on the squat. Several of the American lifters from past Olympic teams could front squat or back squat right up there with the guys on the medal stand. A while back there was a 94kg guy there who had his RDL up to 320kg for sets of 5!!!

The problem has been, while they are focusing so much on getting stronger, and the squats are going up, the competitive lifts arent moving. This is what the main problem has been, and why many have wished that the OTC would employ a more "European" approach, that is, work harder on the snatch and clean and jerk, and less on the squats and pulls.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Do you consider Shane Hamman to be a member of the Olympic Weightlifting Community? How about Kyle Pierce, Lon Kilgore, Mike Burgener, Bill Starr, Tommy Suggs, Trey Goodwin, Josh Wells, and several other people -- both recently involved and with decades of experience -- who agree that our lifters are not strong enough?

And who is the 94 who RDLed the 320?

[lorihultman]

Do you consider Shane Hamman to be a member of the Olympic Weightlifting Community? How about Kyle Pierce, Lon Kilgore, Mike Burgener, Bill Starr, Tommy Suggs, Trey Goodwin, Josh Wells, and several other people -- both recently involved and with decades of experience -- who agree that our lifters are not strong enough?

And who is the 94 who RDLed the 320?

I consider Shane Hamman a member and a friend. I consider Kyle a member and an aquaintance. Lon is a member of the community, although I am not sure that he has had much, or any, contact with elite or even high level athletes in the past decade or so, I might be wrong. Lon is good people though.I like Burgener, although I dont know him all that well.

Josh Wells is a lifter who made the Junior World team training under Glenn Pendlay, but since parting with him has evidently gained a bunch of bodyweight, gotten his squat way up, but failed to ever equal the lifts he did as a lighter lifter since adopting a "get stronger" attitude.

Trey Goodwin is another lifter that made the Junior world team training under Glenn Pendlay, who has made off and on attempts at starting training again, but has not achieved the same results as he did when training under Glenn. He did go to the collegiate nationals a couple of years ago, again training under Glenn at the time, and barely lost an American record snatch behind him.

Trey has also publicly stated that the worst thing he ever did was leave Glenn for the Olympic training center, and that he should have stayed with Glenn. He stated, and I think this is a direct quote " That was the worst decision I ever made".

So, whats your point??? Josh and Trey are guys trained by a fellow who happens to believe in doing the snatch and clean and jerk heavy and often, and working hard on the squat. Lon is a former champion who, to my knowledge, hasnt been directly involved in the training of any top lifter in recent memory. Kyle is a great guy who bases his training off of Mike Stone stuff, as they are friends. Not that different really from a program that Glenn Pendlay put up on the old MWSU site.... which was also an adaptation of Mike Stone work. But, Kyle, like Lon, is good people. Shane is a former athlete, who didnt win. He was maybe the 2nd strongest US superheavy ever (third if you want to count paul anderson) but like mark henry he couldnt beat all the competitors who were weaker than he was. Yes, Rezezadah might have been a stronger squatter than him, but i doubt any of the other guys that beat him were.

And I wont even mention Bill Starr or Suggs. I respect them both a ton, and wont stoop to comment again on things they said that I think are based on faulty information. Whoever is feeding them the things that make then, particularly Starr, say what they are saying, deserves a slap in the face. And then another

So again, whats your point? And, will you have the balls to put this post up? I am new here, and the more I read, the more I doubt this will go up. But I am open to being wrong, and hope I am.

And by the way, ask Mike B. about his lifter with the huge RDL. I cant remember the name. But it seems to me that he was ex-military, not absolutely sure about that but pretty sure... and he told me he did a 320kg RDL. He might have been hitting on me at the time, lol, but other guys that trained with him backed him up. So although i didnt see it, i have to believe it. and i am 99% sure that he came from Mike B.

I am betting that if you talk to Mike you can figure out who I am talking about. He was a nice guy, and strong as shit. Had a couple of tats if i remember right also. Shortish brown hair if that helps. also had a nice smile! :)

[Mark Rippetoe]

Lori, darling, neither you nor anybody else that wasn't present in Wichita Falls knows a goddamn thing about what happened there --who did what numbers, who coached whom, who did what with whom, when, why or how. I'm not going to go into it on this or any other forum, because it's none of anybody's business that we don't choose to make it. So I'd advise you to refrain from expressing your own uninformed opinions within the same post you use to impugn the name of a coach that has forgotten more about this sport than you'll ever have a chance to learn.

If you want to pretend that Olympic weightlifting is not really a strength sport, then that's fine. It comports well with the system that produced a 28th placing in the Worlds in 2007. I suppose all the teams that beat us --maybe even Rigert, huh? -- were taking steroids for technique.

As far as who has been "feeding" Starr and Tommy this false information, again assuming they need to be fed and that I'm the only spoon, that would probably be me. If you want to slap me, you know where I am. And I have a call into Mike. The lifter you mean is Shankle, Mike's lifter. There is no American Olympic lifter recently or currently capable of a 320 x 5 RDL unless it's Mendes or possibly Kendrick on a day when he's way out of weight class. Or maybe a powerlifter that decided to try the lift. I'll pay $100 for the video that proves me wrong.

[Lon Kilgore]

In response to Lori:

My participation in the weightlifting community has been directed, by design, at developing coaches like Glenn Pendlay and Brandon Ezzell, working in the lab on strength issues, and disseminating authentic evidence based training information for the past decade. I do not coach individuals anymore, I do not have time.

The last guy I dealt with directly as coach that went to the OTC was Matt Thompson, I identified him as a STRONG & POWERFUL athlete and worked initially on developing technique (conversion from throwing). When I went to Texas and he went to the OTC he was capable of squatting 300kg for 5's, power cleaning 185, and jerking 200. They never let him squat over 250 at the OTC. After training at the OTC for 2 years, and weighing more than 20 kg more than when he arrived, he jerked 205. Focusing on technique did not produce progress.

Pete Kelley told me in a discussion specifically on this topic two weeks ago in NYC, that Dragomir did not focus on strength on most of the residents since he considered them to be "strong enough". One wonders what Wes Barnett would have been capable of if he had spent more time getting stronger.

[Paul Sousa]

And, will you have the balls to put this post up? I am new here, and the more I read, the more I doubt this will go up. But I am open to being wrong, and hope I am.

I think you are confusing this with the CF forum.

[lorihultman]

Lori, darling, neither you nor anybody else that wasn't present in Wichita Falls knows a goddamn thing about what happened there --who did what numbers, who coached whom, who did what with whom, when, why or how.

Are you going to claim that Glenn Pendlay was not the coach of Josh or Trey... or maybe even that you coached them? I hope not. Wasnt the situation of certain coaches taking "credit" for lifters they didnt really coach one of the issues that prompted you to go to that BOG meeting a few years back and put in your vote to throw the bums out?



If you want to pretend that Olympic weightlifting is not really a strength sport, then that's fine. It comports well with the system that produced a 28th placing in the Worlds in 2007. I suppose all the teams that beat us --maybe even Rigert, huh? -- were taking steroids for technique.

No one is claiming, or has claimed that Olympic lifting isn't a strength sport... but, its easy to knock those straw men down, isnt it? It is a strength sport, specifically concerning how strong you are in the snatch and clean and jerk. Powerlifting is where you compete on the squat and deadlift, and oh yeah bench press




And I have a call into Mike. The lifter you mean is Shankle, Mike's lifter.

Really, Shankle is Mike's lifter? Shankles situation, according to Donny Shankle Himself, is as follows. He trained in Mikes gym for 3-4 months, usually doing his own thing. He admits he was pretty uncoachable. Then he moved to Wichita Falls, Texas to be coached by Glenn Pendlay, where he remained for almost 3 years, this time period culminated in him doing a 165kg snatch, a 201kg clean and jerk, making the Pan Am team, and beating the defending world champion Klockov at the 2006 Arnold Championships. He then moved to the OTC to become a resident athlete, which started a rather turmoil filled time, involving him moving around quite a bit, but ultimately ending up with Glenns encouragement in going to California to train under Ivan Abajeev, who was at the time coaching in northern California. It is I think important to note that during all the moving around and the turmoil, he always listed Glenn as his coach, and Glenn has been back coaching him in the gym on a day to day basis for roughly the past year, and Donny has done a 172.5kg snatch and a 210kg clean and jerk recently in training.

So doesnt it seem rather odd to label Donny as Mike's lifter? Almost as odd as taking exception to the naming of Josh Wells and Trey Goodwins coach...


In response to Lori:

My participation in the weightlifting community has been directed, by design, at developing coaches like Glenn Pendlay and Brandon Ezzell, working in the lab on strength issues, and disseminating authentic evidence based training information for the past decade. I do not coach individuals anymore, I do not have time.

The last guy I dealt with directly as coach that went to the OTC was Matt Thompson, I identified him as a STRONG & POWERFUL athlete and worked initially on developing technique (conversion from throwing). When I went to Texas and he went to the OTC he was capable of squatting 300kg for 5's, power cleaning 185, and jerking 200. They never let him squat over 250 at the OTC. After training at the OTC for 2 years, and weighing more than 20 kg more than when he arrived, he jerked 205. Focusing on technique did not produce progress.

Pete Kelley told me in a discussion specifically on this topic two weeks ago in NYC, that Dragomir did not focus on strength on most of the residents since he considered them to be "strong enough". One wonders what Wes Barnett would have been capable of if he had spent more time getting stronger.


Dr. Kilgore,

I wanted to make it clear that my comments regarding your involvement in Olympic weightlifting were meant in no way to be derogatory. I have never heard a bad thing said about you by anyone, and have absolutely nothing bad to say myself. It seems we might disagree on a few things regarding traiining, but then again if given the chance to talk we might not. Either way, as far as I know or am concerned, your a good guy. I have enjoyed reading some of the studies that have come out of MWSU during your time there, and think your artwork in the "Killistator" (did i get that right?) website is fantastic. Good job on identifying Thompson and getting him started. He certainly had more potential than was realized. I dont know if you ever talk to him anymore, but I talked to him a couple of months ago, and hope that if you dont keep up with him you will be glad to know that although he is pretty skinny now, he is married and doing well in life. And skinny is not a crime... not that bad a crime, at least!

[Mark Rippetoe]

Lori, my love, as much as you know about all of the stuff that happened in WF, it's almost as though you were there. At any rate, you seem to be much more knowledgeable than I, so from this point on I'll defer to your judgement. My sincerest apologies if I got anything wrong about the sport you love.

[lorihultman]

Lori, my love, as much as you know about all of the stuff that happened in WF, it's almost as though you were there. At any rate, you seem to be much more knowledgeable than I, so from this point on I'll defer to your judgement. My sincerest apologies if I got anything wrong about the sport you love.

Weightlifting is a small sport, and most people know most other people, and one can figure stuff out in a variety of ways.

In any event, I have had my say and then some. I apologize for my earlier attitude doubting your willingness to allow posts that were in opposition to your view. Obviously that was misguided. My hat is off to you for allowing an opposing viewpoint to be aired.

Hopefully you will understand that I have nothing personal against you or Bill Starr. I do have some real problems with what I feel are unwarranted attacks on weightlifting or weightlifting coaches in this country. In my opinion I have seen some unwarranted attacks by both of you, but, as they say opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and I was certainly allowed to display mine, which is more than I was owed.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Weightlifting is a small sport, and most people know most other people, and one can figure stuff out in a variety of ways.



It's not that small, Lori.

[Hawkpeter]

So did we actually get the bottom of there being any consensus on whether the OTC is focusing too much or too little on strength? It would seem there is no way to tell.

[Mark Rippetoe]

The consensus of the folks at the OTC would be that they are doing just fine.

[stronger]

So did we actually get the bottom of there being any consensus on whether the OTC is focusing too much or too little on strength? It would seem there is no way to tell.

disagreement doesn't mean there isn't a right answer :)

[Hawkpeter]

In the last 15 years there has been an explosion of information that has come out of eastern bloc and ex-soviet programs. I wonder if in the future there will be information coming out of China on what they do, their training philosophies.

Looks like China won its first Olympic Gold in 1996 and since then have become number 2 all time in medals to Russia/Soviet Union (adding the women's events helped tremendously).

The population obviously helps but I wonder who were the early chinese coaching pioneers? who were they influenced by the most? are there universal philosophies in terms of time spent on technique to strength emphasis being used in China? In 25 years time are we going to be going to lectures and buying whatever the latest medium is for footage of chinese training sessions and manuals etc?

[Mark Rippetoe]

I'm sure we will. And we won't be understanding how it applies to us any better than we did the Soviet/Bulgarian material.

[tertius]

I'm sure we will. And we won't be understanding how it applies to us any better than we did the Soviet/Bulgarian material.

Given the incredible (and brutal) feeder systems in place in those Communist nations, past and present, I doubt it'll have much application for us non-mutants, period, besides allowing us to marvel at just how much training said mutants are capable of enduring.

[thebigdog]

So did we actually get the bottom of there being any consensus on whether the OTC is focusing too much or too little on strength? It would seem there is no way to tell.


I would say yes, the general concensus is that when Paul was coaching, there was way too much emphasis on strength, and doing slow and/or limited range of motion exercises. I have seen the programming from the new Polish coach, and it seems he is turning things back the other way and implementing a program more like the programs of the countries that are at the top of the mound, much more focused on doing the competitive lifts and variations, much less focused on heavy pulls and squats.

Hopefully we will see results...

[Mark Rippetoe]

The consensus of who? A bunch of coaches that think the deadlift makes you slow? Did Paul require PR 5RM deadlifts, PR 3RM squats and presses? Did he program heavy benches? What was the heaviest deadlift at the OTC when he was there? The heaviest back/front squat? Press and bench press?

If you have a copy of his program or a version of it, I'd love to see it and compare it to the one I have here that is supposed to be one of those he used.

[thebigdog]

The consensus of who? A bunch of coaches that think the deadlift makes you slow? Did Paul require PR 5RM deadlifts, PR 3RM squats and presses? Did he program heavy benches? What was the heaviest deadlift at the OTC when he was there? The heaviest back/front squat? Press and bench press?

If you have a copy of his program or a version of it, I'd love to see it and compare it to the one I have here that is supposed to be one of those he used.

Your first question is, "a consensus of who?". The answer is, a consensus of those who are in a position to know about the training of weightlifters in the USA.

Then, you set up a bunch of coaches who t hink that deadlifts make you slow as a strawman that I assume you want to knock over at a later date. Sorry, I have never heard anyone say that deadlifts make you slow... although I have heard that lots and lots of heavy deadlifts can hurt the pull by teaching bad positions while pulling... but, OLers do LOTS and LOTS of pulls from the floor, many, many more than most powerlifters, and many, many more than you recomend in your SS and PP programs.

Now, when paul was there, i never heard of the exact weights of the heavy pulls, though I know there were lots of them, but when Dragomir was there (his program was almost EXACTLY the same as Pauls) the best that I know of was 707 for a set of 5 done stiff legged style by a 94kg lifter.

I know because I know several lifters that trained under Paul that he was very big on getting the squat up, and the lifters squatted hard and often. I know that most of the lifters who trained under Paul had very big increases in their squat. That is one thing that Paul was very successfull at, and that is getting a lifters squat up.

If you want to know numbers, I can probably get them, but it would take a day or two. I do know that the thing we in the weightlifting world will always remember about the days with Paul in charge of the OTC is that he was a genious at getting the squat up, but not quite as good at getting it to apply to the snatch and clean and jerk.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Your first question is, "a consensus of who?". The answer is, a consensus of those who are in a position to know about the training of weightlifters in the USA.



Well, you've hurt my feelings by leaving me out of the consensus club. I would submit that you guys in the club haven't been terribly successful at winning anything except the Nationals in quite some time. And I would like my questions answered if you want to play on the board.

[thebigdog]

Well, you've hurt my feelings by leaving me out of the consensus club. I would submit that you guys in the club haven't been terribly successful at winning anything except the Nationals in quite some time. And I would like my questions answered if you want to play on the board.

Your criticism would carry more weight if YOU had ever prepared a weightlifter to be successfull at anything other than Nationals... or, really, even nationals. Now as to your questions... No, Paul did not require 5 rep sets in the deadlifts that are done to maximum. Nor does ANY successful weightlifting coach that I know of, save one. Yes, he did require maximal sets of squats. Athletes maxed out for sets of 10, 5, 3, and 1, depending on the point in the training cycle. No, I do not think they did a lot of maximal pressing, although they did do heavy push presses, power jerks, and jerks... and certain athletes did lockouts in a rack. Paul did not program bench presses, though he did not really mind if the guys did them, and several of the lifters who were there when paul was a coach were pretty good bench pressers.

As I told you before, I will ask couple of people to confirm what I think I know, then get back to you about who was the best squatter when paul was there...

[Mark Rippetoe]

Your criticism would carry more weight if YOU had ever prepared a weightlifter to be successfull at anything other than Nationals... or, really, even nationals.

I don't feel the need to go over this again. I do and have coached National-level lifters. I don't claim to be primarily an Olympic weightlifting coach, while most of the people that do haven't been very successful. And it is extremely easy to look pretty smart behind a screen name. Get back to me, sure.

[thebigdog]

I don't feel the need to go over this again. I do and have coached National-level lifters. I don't claim to be primarily an Olympic weightlifting coach, while most of the people that do haven't been very successful. And it is extremely easy to look pretty smart behind a screen name. Get back to me, sure.

I am not trying to look "pretty smart". What I do wonder is why you cling to the notion that US coaches dont care enough about strength?

It's easy to argue that the top two programs in the country are Kyle Pierce's program at LSUS and Glenn Pendlay's program in northern California. Over half of the men who qualified for the Pan-Am team this year came from these two programs (3 from Glenn, 2 from Kyle). Both these programs concentrate heavily on strength. Kyle programs rows, squats, deadlifts push presses, bench presses, each week and his kids are going for 10, 5, or 3 rep maxes on a weekly basis. His whole program is centered around strength. Glenn has his kids squatting, deadlifting, rowing, push pressing, and many of them bench pressing on a weekly basis, and going heavy and trying to beat Personal Records.

Look at the Pan-am team... Matt Bruce front squats near 600lbs as an 85kg lifter. Have you seen Phil Sabatini lately? The boy looks like a bodybuilder!!! At least six and maybe seven of our 8 man Pan-Am team bench presses over 400lbs for God's sake!!! Is there any other Pan Am country that can field 6 lifters with physiques and "muscles" like Bruce, Farris, North, Sabatini, Shankle, and Gibbs??? I guess if there is they are not bringing them to meets, lol.

What do the foriegn coaches at the international meets say about US lifters??? Strong, but spend too much time on pulls and squats and not enough time getting good at the lifts. Thats not universal, but its close to universal. What do the programs that are beating us have in common? Less "slow" strength lifts and more concentration on the competitive lifts than most US coaches....

Yet in the face of these facts, you continue to hold to this opinion that we dont care about strength, our lifters are weak, and we are getting beat by foriegn lifters whose coaches DO care about strength. Something doesnt add up here, because I do not think you are stupid. What's the catch????

[Mark Rippetoe]

Yet in the face of these facts, you continue to hold to this opinion that we dont care about strength, our lifters are weak, and we are getting beat by foriegn lifters whose coaches DO care about strength. Something doesnt add up here, because I do not think you are stupid. What's the catch????


The fact is that our lifters are weak, relative to the lifters that beat us. That doesn't add up to you? You think this is gymnastics? Style points? It is obvious that they are stronger. The question is why. If Glenn and Kyle have the top two programs in the country, you just explained why. And how. That's the problem you and most other American weightlifting coaches fail to understand. You think that Donnie and Matt just need to do more snatches and clean & jerks, when the fact is that they are actually not strong enough to beat our foreign competitors that are more explosive, better athletes. Do you not believe Shane Hamman? Do you actually not understand the difference between our lifters and theirs? Glenn and Kyle are trying to do something about it, while you other guys are content to pretend that technique is the only difference between 1st place and 28th.

[thebigdog]

The fact is that our lifters are weak, relative to the lifters that beat us. That doesn't add up to you? You think this is gymnastics? Style points? It is obvious that they are stronger. The question is why. If Glenn and Kyle have the top two programs in the country, you just explained why. And how. That's the problem you and most other American weightlifting coaches fail to understand. You think that Donnie and Matt just need to do more snatches and clean & jerks, when the fact is that they are actually not strong enough to beat our foreign competitors that are more explosive, better athletes. Do you not believe Shane Hamman? Do you actually not understand the difference between our lifters and theirs? Glenn and Kyle are trying to do something about it, while you other guys are content to pretend that technique is the only difference between 1st place and 28th.

As to why our lifters arent as strong or don't lift as much as the guys who beat, Glenn has a pretty good explanation of this on some website, I couldn't find it but I will paraphrase.

He said basically that we have two disadvantages in this country. One is that we are not on a level playing field when it comes to drug testing. It is pretty accepted in other countries, and they dont try to catch themselves (USADA). He also said that we don't get the level of talent in weightlifting in this country that other countries have. This is for a variety of reasons, from talent going to other sports to the lack of popularity, to the simple lack of a work ethic strong enough to make a sport like weightlifting popular.

He believes that either one of these could be over come by itself. An uneven playing field when it comes to drugs could be overcome if we had the kind of talent they have in the NFL, for instance. Or, the talent we have now could be successful if we were on an even playing field when it comes to drug testing. But, both of these things together make it very hard and very rare for us to get a lifter to the absolute top.

What are your thoughts on this? Could this be a better explanation than a simple "Our lifters don't try hard enough to get strong".

And, as to your assumption that Kyle and Glenn are successful because other coaches don't try to get strong, that was not my point. I cant think of a top coach in the USA that doesn't put the same emphasis on strength as they do. I mean different coaches have different programs, everyone is trying to get strong, and trying hard! At least everyone that I know is.

This is why I STILL don't get your idea that US lifters and coaches don't care about strength. Where did hear this? Where did you see this? What caused you to have this opinion?

[Mark Rippetoe]

He is absolutely positively 100% correct. What you don't seem to understand is this: given the situation as it is -- that our lifters lack the genetics and the willingness/ability/NGB support to use steroids -- what is left to do? GET THEM STRONGER. That is what Glenn and Kyle are doing. Because strength is the most important, most manipulable variable you have left. Anybody capable of functioning at the national level of Olympic weightlifting has 95% of the technique efficiency they will ever have by the end of their first year of training. After that, what?? There are no technique steroids, yet strength is important enough to them to risk getting caught to obtain. And it certainly helps if college football/baseball/basketball/hockey/track&field et al isn't intercepting your talent stream.

I didn't say our lifters don't try hard enough to get stronger. I never said that, and you are not reading carefully. I said that the fact is that most coaches do not emphasize strength, and your repeating that they do post after post does not make it so. Ask Glenn and Kyle: the vast majority of our weightlifting coaches DO NOT program 5RM deadlifts. They just DON'T, goddammit. Ask them. They will tell you that it slows down the clean, or some other such silly shit. Our athletes suffer as a result. And you just want them to hone their technique to a razor's edge, so that they look really, really super-efficient in the C-session.

The Cuban weightlifting team and the Cuban government makes damn sure they beat you every time they can. You don't have the Cuban team -- you've got Americans, the ones who are left after the better funded, better scholarshipped, better recruited, better pipelined, and better coached sports step in line in front of you. So you'd damn sure better start doing something different than what you've been doing before -- like maybe getting stronger in whatever way you have access to, because they are stronger than we are, and it doesn't matter why (although it's obvious). All that matters is what Shane said: they beat us because they are stronger. If you don't agree with Shane, tell Shane he's wrong.

Have you even watched the interview? Have you heard what Tommy Suggs has to say about this?

[thebigdog]

Ok, that was fair. But the question remains, where did you get the idea that US coaches don't as a rule, concentrate on strength. Who told you this? And, why would programming 5RM maxes on the deadlift a litmus test for a proper attention to strength? Hell, most powerlifters dont even do that, and the deadlift is a competition lift for them!

And, by the way, I have watched the Shane video. I have also talked to Shane in person several times. Without being rude... I think that you were a little leading in the video and that Shane is a very, very polite man. When I have heard him talk about similar subjects in other situations, he came across entirely differently. Now, I do think that one thing he said in the video rang true, and that was that there was a LOT of heavy and hard squatting going on at the OTC when Shane was there, but he was excused from it, and chose not to do it... and now he wishes that he had worked a little harder.

I also watched the Suggs video. He is an interesting guy.

Have you read the series called "There is no program" by Bud Charniga that is available on sportivnypress.com?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Where did you get the idea that US coaches don't as a rule, concentrate on strength. Who told you this?

You want me to explain again on this thread my involvement in the coaching of weightlifting? You think "somebody" just told me this? You think Shane just made up his comments in the chair that day? You think he and I never spoke about this before the interview? Why do you think I asked him to drive down from Tulsa? Why do you think he agreed to do so?

Now that you've plugged Bud's books, please go away.

[thebigdog]

Where did you get the idea that US coaches don't as a rule, concentrate on strength. Who told you this?

You want me to explain again on this thread my involvement in the coaching of weightlifting? You think "somebody" just told me this? You think Shane just made up his comments in the chair that day? You think he and I never spoke about this before the interview? Why do you think I asked him to drive down from Tulsa? Why do you think he agreed to do so?

Now that you've plugged Bud's books, please go away.

Damn Mark, "please go away"??? I didnt expect that. I was not trying to plug any book. I watched the interview with Suggs, loved it, but also read the series of articles that Bud wrote, and the two are in a bit of conflict. I wondered about your thoughts on this differences of opinion.

I still am wondering where you picked up the notion that the average weightlifting coach in the USA doesn't care about strength. In an effort to figure out where you picked up this notion, I have googled your name, I have searched this website, and I have talked to a few people. I still cant figure out where you picked this notion up.

maybe I am slow, maybe my google-fu is weak, whatever... can you please tell me how you came up with this notion?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Maybe it's not the average coach, just the ones that coach the national team. As an addendum to my earlier comments, here are the US placings at the worlds, just finished up:

48Kg Women (1st TUR 93Snatch 121 C&J)

17 REXROAD Kelly 30.03.1978 USA 47.89 B 71 84 155


53Kg Women (1st CHN 100/122)

USA did not have an entry

58Kg Women (1st CHN 102/135)

15 SANDOVAL Amanda 01.05.1982 USA 57.85 B 86 109 195


63Kg Women (1st KAZ 105/143)

12 BURGENER Natalie 07.11.1983 USA 62.82 B 96 114 210


69Kg Women (1st RUS 116/140)

19 RUE Layfield Danica 14.07.1982 USA 68.49 B 90 115 205

75Kg Women (1st KAZ 134/161)

27 CRASS Rachel 06.07.1985 USA 74.95 C 83 106 189

+75Kg Women (1st RUS 145/170)

10 ROBLES Sarah 01.08.1988 USA 122.24 B 111 140 251 Our highest placing in the meet, by the heaviest lifter in the weight class.

56Kg Men (1st CHN 132/160)

USA no entry

62Kg Men (1st PRK 147/173)

20 LEE Alex 18.11.1988 USA 61.83 C 115 145 260

69Kg Men (1st CHN 160/198)

USA no entry

77Kg Men (1st ARM 173/200)

20 VAUGHN Chad Thomas 11.05.1980 USA 77.00 C 144 175 319

85Kg Men (1st POL 173/210)

25 BRUCE Matthew 11.07.1983 USA 84.80 C 150 180 330
--- FARRIS Kendrick 02.07.1986 USA 83.89 B --- --- ---

**Note:Kendrick Farris failed his 3 attempts at 150Kg Snatch

94Kg Men (1st RUS 185/218)

USA no entry

105Kg Men (POL 188/227)

25 BURGENER Casey 15.08.1982 USA 103.30 C 162 189 351

31 SHANKLE Donald 18.03.1982 USA 104.81 C 155 189 344

+105Kg Men (IRI 208/245)

13 JUDGE Patrick 03.06.1986 USA 155.05 B 173 223 396


25 ITO Collin 05.04.1987 USA 130.81 C 146 200 346

Yep. We're just too fucking strong. No doubt about it.

You must realize that the Chinese 53kg female snatched 220lbs and C&J 268. She weighs 116 lbs. Awesome technique, eh?

[tertius]

Maybe it's not the average coach, just the ones that coach the national team. As an addendum to my earlier comments, here are the US placings at the worlds, just finished up:

(snip)

Yep. We're just too fucking strong. No doubt about it.

You must realize that the Chinese 53kg female snatched 220lbs and C&J 268. She weighs 116 lbs. Awesome technique, eh?

One athlete placing in the top ten. One. No offense to the people going out and competing, because they're stronger than I'll ever be, but that's pretty sad for a country that used to dominate the world stage in the sport.

[guni]

At the end of the day the reasons behind America's poor showings is pretty simple - number of athletes/talent.

China is not doing anything particularly special compared to Bulgaria, Russia, etc. The catch is they have enough people trying out to fill a big city. The U.S. doesn't.

I read an article today on yahoo showing the states that have had most High School football players end up in the NFL. Seven of the Top 10 were also seven of the most populous states in the country. It is not a coincidence.

If the USAW worked with universities to try to get competitive lifting going at the D1 level there would be hope. Plenty of football players do track. Why not try to get some into weightlifting? It would take time, but it is a possible feeder system that would work with the sports/talent feeder infrastructure already in place.

[thebigdog]

Unfortunately, none of this does ANYHING to prove anything you said. We are NOT one of the top 10 nations in the world in Weightlifting. Simply giving evidence of this fact doesn't do anything to prove WHY this situation exists.

[Mark Rippetoe]

You are very dense.

[Horowitz]

Economics may be useful. I don't know the salary of a weightlifter or power lifter but I am sure that it is far less than a basketball or football player. Since more tends to be supplied at a higher price, the U.S. supplies more Football and Basketball players than weightlifters. Our best athletes are probably all playing Football or Basketball not weightlifting.

[Miro]

Unfortunately, none of this does ANYHING to prove anything you said. We are NOT one of the top 10 nations in the world in Weightlifting. Simply giving evidence of this fact doesn't do anything to prove WHY this situation exists.
The evidence is already proof in and of itself. If technique has been established (and it most certainly has when you compete at national and international level), focusing on it does not improve your ability to handle bigger weights, and that's what Rip is talking about the whole time.

So there needs to be more strength training instead of polishing technique.

[msingh]

Is NFL recruiting all the amazing female athletes too??

[Mark Rippetoe]

Yes, they are.

[Dave_Allen]

With respect, it seems to me that guni had the right idea - weightlifting needs a feeder system, and with the ubiquity of football in America, it might be the best feeder system available. Then again, the recent CF/USAW event in CoSpgs might work pretty well, too.

[51M0n]

Is NFL recruiting all the amazing female athletes too??

No, but the US college sports scholarship system does. The lack of weightlifting scholarships at the university level would almost inevitably have the effect of driving young, strong, athletic girls towards sports which do offer scholarships (basketball, track & field ect.)



With respect, it seems to me that guni had the right idea - weightlifting needs a feeder system, and with the ubiquity of football in America, it might be the best feeder system available. Then again, the recent CF/USAW event in CoSpgs might work pretty well, too.

It's only a partial solution, the cream of the genetic crop is still going to get drafted to the NFL (but there's probably still some considerable talent in the leftovers).

A proper university driven scholarship feeder program would no doubt have a positive effect on the talent of American female weightlifters.

[beast]

I don't actually think all the talent goes into the nfl, yes running backs with 50 inch verts would make good weightlifters, however some people like pat mendes for example may have good strength ability, speed, size, mental toughness ect but may be a crap footballer no skill, can't throw, run well or have aspirations to play football.

However whether what I said is right/wrong I don't know just guessing! However i think the main difference in US weightlifters between other countries is they are lazier, they have multiple off seasons where they do light swimming, go out, workout in fancy training halls. I remember Shane hammond saying they just let him work up in the squat- as if they weren't pushing him to the max. People like Shane know there are not many others like him in the country so he doesn't have to work his hardest due to people coming in, prove himself so he can get fed and accommodation, plus he already was fairly respected squatting a raw squat record ect, so mentally/sibconsiously there is less at stake if he doesn't do well, also at the back of everyone's mind is the fact they could retire when they want and set a gym and make some bucks, in Bulgaria things like that don't happen- most end up being alcoholics and can't take not having the competition, they are obsessives.

However there is another reason countries like the usa and commonwealth nations don't do as well is because we are more moral and have stricter testing ect, which probably has been mentioned before. Russia, Greece, Turkey, Eastern European countries are still as corrupt as shit and don't give a crap other than winning, in the US and England it is considered better to be a good sport than to win and cheat, boiling down to the traditional ideals of gentlemen ect within out cultures. Unrelated I still love the statistic that when the Georgia (Europe) police force went on strike the crime rate went down!

But on a more positive note you americans should all be grateful that overall in the olympics both winter and summer you both do quite well, swimming, skiing, rowing ect.

[WaWa Bird]

Maybe it's not the average coach, just the ones that coach the national team. As an addendum to my earlier comments, here are the US placings at the worlds, just finished up:

48Kg Women (1st TUR 93Snatch 121 C&J)

17 REXROAD Kelly 30.03.1978 USA 47.89 B 71 84 155


53Kg Women (1st CHN 100/122)

USA did not have an entry

58Kg Women (1st CHN 102/135)

15 SANDOVAL Amanda 01.05.1982 USA 57.85 B 86 109 195


63Kg Women (1st KAZ 105/143)

12 BURGENER Natalie 07.11.1983 USA 62.82 B 96 114 210


69Kg Women (1st RUS 116/140)

19 RUE Layfield Danica 14.07.1982 USA 68.49 B 90 115 205

75Kg Women (1st KAZ 134/161)

27 CRASS Rachel 06.07.1985 USA 74.95 C 83 106 189

+75Kg Women (1st RUS 145/170)

10 ROBLES Sarah 01.08.1988 USA 122.24 B 111 140 251 Our highest placing in the meet, by the heaviest lifter in the weight class.

56Kg Men (1st CHN 132/160)

USA no entry

62Kg Men (1st PRK 147/173)

20 LEE Alex 18.11.1988 USA 61.83 C 115 145 260

69Kg Men (1st CHN 160/198)

USA no entry

77Kg Men (1st ARM 173/200)

20 VAUGHN Chad Thomas 11.05.1980 USA 77.00 C 144 175 319

85Kg Men (1st POL 173/210)

25 BRUCE Matthew 11.07.1983 USA 84.80 C 150 180 330
--- FARRIS Kendrick 02.07.1986 USA 83.89 B --- --- ---

**Note:Kendrick Farris failed his 3 attempts at 150Kg Snatch

94Kg Men (1st RUS 185/218)

USA no entry

105Kg Men (POL 188/227)

25 BURGENER Casey 15.08.1982 USA 103.30 C 162 189 351

31 SHANKLE Donald 18.03.1982 USA 104.81 C 155 189 344

+105Kg Men (IRI 208/245)

13 JUDGE Patrick 03.06.1986 USA 155.05 B 173 223 396


25 ITO Collin 05.04.1987 USA 130.81 C 146 200 346

Yep. We're just too fucking strong. No doubt about it.

You must realize that the Chinese 53kg female snatched 220lbs and C&J 268. She weighs 116 lbs. Awesome technique, eh?

Rip

Do you know what the foreign athletes squat, bench, dead lift, and press compared to the American athletes?

.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I'm not as familiar with powerlifting.

[51M0n]

I don't actually think all the talent goes into the nfl, yes running backs with 50 inch verts would make good weightlifters, however some people like pat mendes for example may have good strength ability, speed, size, mental toughness ect but may be a crap footballer no skill, can't throw, run well or have aspirations to play football.

Pat got offered a football scholarships, turned it down. Most wouldn't.


However i think the main difference in US weightlifters between other countries is they are lazier

As far as I know US weightlifters are no less keen to win than any other athletes. I think it's far more likely that a relative lack of genetic talent, possibly combined with an inefficient coaching methodology is responsible, rather than it being the case the US athletes aren't willing to work as hard.

[Mark Rippetoe]

They are not lazier. Not at all. I have never meant to imply this. Their coaches are the problem.

[beast]

You're right it was wrong of me to presume, how can I know if I haven't been there. To be honest I don't really know what I'm talking about (I'm not being sarcastic). So sorry guys for messing up the debate.