Whassup, my N-word?

[Gary Gibson]

An attempt to divert a thread jack...

I hate the N word. I hate the term "the N word" because it's as condescending and annoyingly politically correct as "African-American". I hate when black people use it as a term of affection, particularly in the hearing of whites and I hate when whites use it at all, either to be gansta or to express racial hatred.

I love liberty and that means I wouldn't dream of legislating about what you can say even if it annoys the piss out of me. But goddammit it that word gets under my skin. My father often reminds me it shouldn't because it says more about the person directing it at me than it does about me. But it I think it will always piss me off a little when I hear it or read it.

[Charles Staley]

It is perhaps the most negative, vulgar slur imaginable- it puts a pit in my stomach on the (thankfully) very rare occasions I hear it, and I'm white.


An attempt to divert a thread jack...

I hate the N word. I hate the term "the N word" because it's as condescending and annoyingly politically correct as "African-American". I hate when black people use it as a term of affection, particularly in the hearing of whites and I hate when whites use it at all, either to be gansta or to express racial hatred.

I love liberty and that means I wouldn't dream of legislating about what you can say even if it annoys the piss out of me. But goddammit it that word gets under my skin. My father often reminds me it shouldn't because it says more about the person directing it at me than it does about me. But it I think it will always piss me off a little when I hear it or read it.

[Sgsolberg]

When I was a kid, I grew up in Rockford, IL. The school I went to was predominantly black, with about 20% of the kids looking like me (skinny, white kids). I liked certain kids based on how they acted, and disliked others for the way they acted.

To this day, I cannot understand the use of racial/ethnic terms and slurs. The measure of a man is the word he speaks and the way he acts. That term has no valid use.

[Casey Dupre]

To paraphrase Seinfeld: should we even be talking about this? ;)

[blowdpanis]

Louis CK on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N6Phmale_Q#t=1m59s

[Marotta]

"N-word", Please!

?

[August West]

Louis CK on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N6Phmale_Q#t=1m59s

"You're makin me say it in my head! Why don't you fuckin say it instead, and take responsibility!" - hahaha, great point.

It may be just a word, but it's hard to think of any word with more historical baggage of hatred behind it. For the keyboard jockeys who think it's cool and edgy to use it, I think Samuel Johnson's take is appropriate: "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it. Martyrdom is the test." If these clowns are so edgy, I can suggest a few neighborhoods where they could go try it out in person and take the test. Seems more likely that they'll stick to sites that proclaim their own "foul-mouthed ignorance" in their defense and keep it strictly on the internets. That keeps them from having to explain themselves face to face, but it doesn't make their choice to use the word any less of a reflection of their character. I think it shows bad judgment at the very least.

[Gary Gibson]

"You're makin me say it in my head! Why don't you fuckin say it instead, and take responsibility!" - hahaha, great point.

It may be just a word, but it's hard to think of any word with more historical baggage of hatred behind it. For the keyboard jockeys who think it's cool and edgy to use it, I think Samuel Johnson's take is appropriate: "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it. Martyrdom is the test." If these clowns are so edgy, I can suggest a few neighborhoods where they could go try it out in person and take the test. Seems more likely that they'll stick to sites that proclaim their own "foul-mouthed ignorance" in their defense and keep it strictly on the internets. That keeps them from having to explain themselves face to face, but it doesn't make their choice to use the word any less of a reflection of their character. I think it shows bad judgment at the very least.

Wow.

[jameson]

"You're makin me say it in my head! Why don't you fuckin say it instead, and take responsibility!" - hahaha, great point.

It may be just a word, but it's hard to think of any word with more historical baggage of hatred behind it. For the keyboard jockeys who think it's cool and edgy to use it, I think Samuel Johnson's take is appropriate: "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it. Martyrdom is the test." If these clowns are so edgy, I can suggest a few neighborhoods where they could go try it out in person and take the test. Seems more likely that they'll stick to sites that proclaim their own "foul-mouthed ignorance" in their defense and keep it strictly on the internets. That keeps them from having to explain themselves face to face, but it doesn't make their choice to use the word any less of a reflection of their character. I think it shows bad judgment at the very least.

I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, but you make a great point when (I think) you say that people hide behind their screen names while being downright hateful to others. Most people would never be that foul-mouthed when talking face-to-face for fear of being punched in the throat. It reminds me of the saying, "Our character is what we do when we think no one is looking." - H. Jackson Brown, Jr

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

I try to be as much like I am online as I am off. Or the other way around. Either way I try to act consistently.

If we are getting rid of nigger, what about red neck, zipper head, gook, camel jockey and faggot?

Personally, I think "ghetto trash" or something similar. I lived across the street from two apartments full of porch monkeys and not one of them was black. I think we have gotten to the point where behavior is more important than race and it is the behavior that should be grouped or described.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't think you can equate the "n-word" and "redneck." Both racial slures, yes, but the historical context of the former makes it a much, much, much more offensive term than the latter. I agree with you that we are getting to the point where behavior is more important than race, but that doesn't errase the couple hundred years of history during which the "n-word" had everything to do with race. And the fact many African-Americans have appropriated the word (a pretty common defense mechanism) doesn't make it ok for the rest of us to use it, either. Furthermore, as a white American, I'd rather not associate myself with those who did and still do use the term as a way of puting African-Americans in their "place." So, as far a I'm concerned, the word is off limits, and I don't really see any reason to use it.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

I hate the term "African American". You aren't from africa any more than I'm from europe. I hate this term as much as I hate "<location or culture>-American". You are either an American or you are not, there is no half way. THis doesn't mean you must throw out what ever culture and values and traditions you had before coming here, but you must identify as an American first. You cannot hope to become part of the larger group while constantly reminding people of your little group.

The word is nigger, not the "N-word". There are many words that start with n. If you cannot say or type the word while discussing it, you have no business discussing it.

It is no more or less right for Gary to call me a white bread honky than for me to call him a nigger. This is why I prefer terms like "emo", "douche bag", "red neck (it really shouldn't have been in my original list)", "ricer", "porch monkey" and "ghetto trash". These words all have behavior associated with them. Granted, you could make the argument that they also have geographic (douche bag or redneck) or racial (ricer, emo) stereotypes, but just because there a stereo type, doesn't mean it's wrong.

[Gary Gibson]

You have to think about what these slurs mean. Really, really mean. Some are comical and essentially harmless, like when you use it to indicate someone's passion for a certain type of music or Star Trek. The really bad ones are ethnic and just like saying "your mother", slurring a person's entire heritage is bound to get you in trouble with that person.

Now when that person's ethnicity is tied up in something as horrible and shameful as the recent history of blacks in this country, then you have the atom bomb of insults.

So an oven joke is going to carry a lot more weight with a Jew(ish person) than it would a gentile.

And "nigger"--whether you like it or not--is shorthand for "you are from a race of subhuman monkey people whom my ancestors conquered and to whom our superiority is still clearly apparent." We can argue this all day on the Internetz, but I suspect that most people here aren't black and just don't know what that word can feel like. You can try your best to rationalize that it's just another slur, but that's just not the way it is. Sorry.

I still support your fundamental right to say what you will about whom you will. I can't ask that you refrain from use of words I don't like, but I don't have to keep your company either.

[GVA-66]

I try to be as much like I am online as I am off. Or the other way around. Either way I try to act consistently.

If we are getting rid of nigger, what about red neck, zipper head, gook, camel jockey and faggot?

Personally, I think "ghetto trash" or something similar. I lived across the street from two apartments full of porch monkeys and not one of them was black. I think we have gotten to the point where behavior is more important than race and it is the behavior that should be grouped or described.


And don't forget bitch. While not racial, it could be considered derogatory none-the-less to us bitches. Especially us white bitches.

I essentially agree with Jamie, behavior is what should matter. I'd rather have a foul-mouthed person with heart, conscience, integrity, and a good sense of humor around me any day than a person who doesn't curse because it is not "proper," but yet has no problems stabbing you in the back, being hypocritical, has no sense of humor or integrity, yet thinks they are holier than thou because they attend church every week and they don't swear. Of course there is a middle ground between the two, but if having to choose between them, it will be the former, hands down.

I grew up in NYC and have a lot of black friends. Many use the "N" word with no problems at all; they don't seem to attach much significance to the word unless some white guy from Jersey or Bensonhurst happens to direct it at them. Should that happen, the word suddenly is given a new context, one that is heavily loaded with meaning, and it is that context/meaning that evokes a strong emotional reaction/response.

I do the same thing with the word bitch. I had an ex-boyfriend who would call me a bitch, but he said it in such a funny way it just made me laugh. The more he called me a bitch, the more I laughed. Some women would get insulted no matter how it was said; they see the word as being equally loaded and derogatory towards women as some see the "N" word being towards blacks. Now if another guy called me a bitch with a different tone and intent, well, my reaction would be quite different.

That said, however, my best friend (who is a black male and grew up with me in the same neighborhood), feels as you do, Gary. He hates the word and feels there is no acceptable use for it other than perhaps in history books. Personally, I find it interesting that two black people who grew up in the same neighborhood as one another, and are of the same age, would feel so differently, yet equally strongly, about the use of the word.

[Robertus]

"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it. Martyrdom is the test." - Dr Johnson

In short, you're free to use whatever words you like, but be prepared to take responsibility for what you say.

Especially if taking responsiblity means getting punched in the face.

[Raskolnikov]

I'll continue to use "n-word" if I feel like it, Jamie. You know what I mean when you read it, so forgive me if I'm not worried about my meaning being confused with some other word that begins with "n." Like I said, I don't see any reason to use the word -- I don't give a shit if you do or not, but I don't think that bars me from discussing the issue.

And, just so we are on the same page, are you telling me that if Gary calls you "white bread honky" you'd actually give a shit? Because, to be honest, the handful of times I've been called something like "redneck" it didn't bother me in the slightest. But I guaranty you that if you call Gary what you seem to think is the black equivalent of "honky" it's going to have quite a different affect on him. Why do you think that is? My guess is that it has something to do with the fact terms like "redneck" and "honky" aren't intrinsically linked with the enslavement and murder of white people. So how in god's good name can you claim there isn't a difference?

[PMDL]

And "nigger"--whether you like it or not--is shorthand for "you are from a race of subhuman monkey people whom my ancestors conquered and to whom our superiority is still clearly apparent." We can argue this all day on the Internetz, but I suspect that most people here aren't black and just don't know what that word can feel like. You can try your best to rationalize that it's just another slur, but that's just not the way it is. Sorry.

I gotta agree with Gary on this point.

I grew up in the South, and there's a lot of inertial racism still built into the culture there. It is improving a lot among the younger generations - in some ways, people my age and younger are more integrated racially than other parts of the country - but you still see it hardcore in the old-guard.

It's a strange mix - there's still the big divide, in the sense of "black neighborhoods" and "white neighborhoods", for instance, but at the same time, you never got hostility going into "black clubs" or when black friends came with us to "white clubs". I guess it's a polite kind of racism, or something. But then at the same time, you didn't have go far to hear people saying things that were depressing as hell. Just how it is, I guess.

In any case, I see the word itself as a double-edged sword. I'd never use it in reference to a person that I know is black, because damn, that's just shameful. Whether white people get it or not is irrelevant - it's still a sore spot, rightfully so, and I think it's disrespectful as hell to use the term (in a serious fashion).

On the other hand, the emergence of the rap-slang variants "nigga" or "nukkah" depending on pronunciation have had the effect of watering down the punch of the word, or at least making it somewhat more "culturally acceptable". I'm on the fence about this, but in a general sense I think it may be for the best in the long run - for the simple reason that it de-fangs the term.

If it's something that, for better or worse, is "owned" and made harmless, then you've taken away its power as a hate-word. I still think it's lame as fuck to see middle-class white kids copying the latest rap videos, in how they dress or how they speak, and the word has definitely not lost its punch enough to use casually, but over the next few decades it may be for the best that the word is brought away from its historical usage.

[Raskolnikov]

Well said, PMDL.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"So how in god's good name can you claim there isn't a difference?"
Whether or not there is a difference, it's still likely to evoke a similar response.

1 because I am not a red neck or honky.

2 If it based on me being white, than it is a racial slur, and that kind of shit pisses me off.

If judging someone on race is a bad thing, than it applies to all races. If it is not, then it still applies to all races. Read my early posts about behavior based stereotypes and classifications.

[GVA-66]

And, just so we are on the same page, are you telling me that if Gary calls you "white bread honky" you'd actually give a shit?

Sorry to interject here...I know this was directed at Jamie. But just want to add my $0.02.

First let me say that if Gary where to call me a "white bread honky" something tells me coming from him it would not be offensive. If he called me a "white bread honky bitch," it would likely be funny as hell.

I have been called a "white bitch" before by blacks. It was a very loaded insult and I had a strong reaction even though there is nowhere near the same history behind that phrase as the "N" word. I could tell they were not seeing me as a person, but as a symbol of hundreds of years of oppression. All of that anger and vitriol was momentarily directed at me whether it was deserved or not. That is no better or worse then me calling someone the "N" word. When you strip someone of their dignity, their humanity, their individuality, lump them into a category with others, and dismiss that category as being inferior or to blame for all the ills of the world that is unacceptable, period. Context and intent are important considerations.

[GVA-66]

In any case, I see the word itself as a double-edged sword. I'd never use it in reference to a person that I know is black, because damn, that's just shameful. Whether white people get it or not is irrelevant - it's still a sore spot, rightfully so, and I think it's disrespectful as hell to use the term (in a serious fashion).

On the other hand, the emergence of the rap-slang variants "nigga" or "nukkah" depending on pronunciation have had the effect of watering down the punch of the word, or at least making it somewhat more "culturally acceptable". I'm on the fence about this, but in a general sense I think it may be for the best in the long run - for the simple reason that it de-fangs the term.

If it's something that, for better or worse, is "owned" and made harmless, then you've taken away its power as a hate-word. I still think it's lame as fuck to see middle-class white kids copying the latest rap videos, in how they dress or how they speak, and the word has definitely not lost its punch enough to use casually, but over the next few decades it may be for the best that the word is brought away from its historical usage.


I agree completely.

[Raskolnikov]

Sorry to interject here...I know this was directed at Jamie. But just want to add my $0.02.

First let me say that if Gary where to call me a "white bread honky" something tells me coming from him it would not be offensive. If he called me a "white bread honky bitch," it would likely be funny as hell.

I have been called a "white bitch" before by blacks. It was a very loaded insult and I had a strong reaction even though there is nowhere near the same history behind that phrase as the "N" word. I could tell they were not seeing me as a person, but as a symbol of hundreds of years of oppression. All of that anger and vitriol was momentarily directed at me whether it was deserved or not. That is no better or worse then me calling someone the "N" word. When you strip someone of their dignity, their humanity, their individuality, lump them into a category with others, and dismiss that category as being inferior or to blame for all the ills of the world that is unacceptable, period. Context and intent are important considerations.

I would argue that however it felt for you to be lumped into a group and striped of your humanity when someone called you a "white bitch" that the feeling doesn't compare precisely because the historical context is so different. Take how your felt and add to it the generational pain of slavery and all its effects -- that's why I'm arguing that there is a marked difference between "redneck" and the "n-word." However pissed off we, as white Americans, may feel when racial slurs are used against us, the simple fact of the matter is those slurs don't carry near the weight of the "n-word." And, frankly, we don't even have a frame of reference to argue otherwise. Speaking strictly in terms of how words affect people, calling a black man the "n-word" is far worse than calling a white man "cracker," "redneck," or any other similar epithet. Again, they are all racial slurs and none should be used, but that doesn't mean you can equate the two.

[Raskolnikov]

"So how in god's good name can you claim there isn't a difference?"
Whether or not there is a difference, it's still likely to evoke a similar response.

1 because I am not a red neck or honky.

2 If it based on me being white, than it is a racial slur, and that kind of shit pisses me off.

It is a racial slur, I'm sure you aren't a redneck, and that kind of shit pisses me off too, but white people weren't subjected to the most inhuman treatment imaginable for hundreds of years while being called "redneck." So I'm not about to claim that the response is at all similar.


If judging someone on race is a bad thing, than it applies to all races. If it is not, then it still applies to all races. Read my early posts about behavior based stereotypes and classifications.

I agree with you in the abstract. It does apply to all races. But that doesn't mean words carry the same meaning or have the same affect in all contexts.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"calling a black man the "n-word" is far worse than calling a white man "cracker," "redneck," or any other similar epithet. Again, they are all racial slurs and none should be used, but that doesn't mean you can equate the two."

This was kind of my point, sort of. It's worse to get hit by a bomb than a 1911a, but both will make you dead. If I can't use racial slurs, you can't either. If you can use racial slurs, then I can.

I vote we ditch the racial slurs and move one to behavioral ones (which are a decision, and therefore you have control over).

[PMDL]

"calling a black man the "n-word" is far worse than calling a white man "cracker," "redneck," or any other similar epithet. Again, they are all racial slurs and none should be used, but that doesn't mean you can equate the two."

This was kind of my point, sort of. It's worse to get hit by a bomb than a 1911a, but both will make you dead. If I can't use racial slurs, you can't either. If you can use racial slurs, then I can.

That's not at all an accurate analogy.

Mainly because no one is discussing the mere usage of racial slurs. I don't think anyone here would argue that it's "okay" to use a racial slur; but that isn't the point, either.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"I don't think anyone here would argue that it's "okay" to use a racial slur"

Then we are all in agreement. No more racial slurs. Since the original post was about a racial slur, then that's been covered.

[PMDL]

You enjoy being dishonest or does it just come naturally to you?

[GVA-66]

I would argue that however it felt for you to be lumped into a group and striped of your humanity when someone called you a "white bitch" that the feeling doesn't compare precisely...

Of course not, nothing compares to anything precisely. It is all subjective.


Take how your felt and add to it the generational pain of slavery and all its effects -- that's why I'm arguing that there is a marked difference between "redneck" and the "n-word." However pissed off we, as white Americans, may feel when racial slurs are used against us, the simple fact of the matter is those slurs don't carry near the weight of the "n-word."

I always seem to sense elements of white guilt attached to those sorts of perspectives. Hate is hate. I really don't care if it comes in the form of the "N" word or redneck. If redneck is used to convey hate it does carry the same weight in that moment; time stands still when confronted with hate and history ceases to be meaningful for all practical purposes. If I am surrounded by a couple of black guys calling me a white bitch or redneck (which would be amusing with my NY accent) or whatever, with hate in their eyes directed towards me I am not going to say to myself, "Gee, I sure am glad I'm not black because then they might call me the "N" word and that would just make this already bad situation just that much worse. If of course I could even relate, but I can't, cause I'm white. I wonder if that will make my head getting bashed in shortly hurt even less."



And, frankly, we don't even have a frame of reference to argue otherwise. Speaking strictly in terms of how words affect people, calling a black man the "n-word" is far worse than calling a white man "cracker," "redneck," or any other similar epithet. Again, they are all racial slurs and none should be used, but that doesn't mean you can equate the two.

I disagree. I am not going to say it is slightly more acceptable that a hateful sentiment is directed at me in the form of being called a white bitch just because I can't relate to being black and having the "N" word directed at me. Fuck that. I grew up in a rough neighborhood and have been targeted and jumped for being white. I didn't need to understand what it is like to be black and hear the "N" word at those moments. When shit like that goes down, it provides you with a frame of reference damn quick.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

How am I being dishonest? If we agree that racial slurs are bad (which I think they are) and we agree to stop using them (which I think we should), then what is the further issue?

[TTT]

I'm not from the US so I really have no idea of it all.
and this is a serious question.

As a black person, is it offensive to be referred to as "boy"?

Not sure if it's a known moment, but here in Aus, a TV personality back many many years ago, in an award ceremony was presenting an award with Ali, and were doing the usual banter, when Ali said something and the white TV personality said "I like the boy" in response to Ali's joke.
and he honestly didn't think anything of it, and it was all taken in humor but Ali sort of gave him a "I'm gonna kill you" look etc etc.

Is "boy" an offensive term?

Just found a clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWKyDGGptA4

[PMDL]

How am I being dishonest? If we agree that racial slurs are bad (which I think they are) and we agree to stop using them (which I think we should), then what is the further issue?

The fact that the discussion wasn't about this at all, which you seem to ignore for some reason?

[Shaf]

The racist connotations are still there. I hear far more black men and women use that term than I do anybody else though. Lately I've heard a lot of teen black girls using it.

Hypocritical or perfectly acceptable in those populations?

Overall, I tend towards not using language online that I wouldn't use in person. Especially now as I'm feeling laid back and mellow, and generally am more worried about what I'm doing than what anyone else is doing.

In Saginaw, MI, I wouldn't say it to a black man unless it was my intention on provoking him for whatever bad reason I could think of. Ironically, I've used the same phrase on skinheads for the very same reason when I was younger, but never on a black.

I'm sorry I brought it up in the other thread. I just wanted to suggest that IGx, as a community, isn't inherently racist despite the use of that epithet.

[Shaf]

If these clowns are so edgy, I can suggest a few neighborhoods where they could go try it out in person and take the test. Seems more likely that they'll stick to sites that proclaim their own "foul-mouthed ignorance" in their defense and keep it strictly on the internets. That keeps them from having to explain themselves face to face, but it doesn't make their choice to use the word any less of a reflection of their character. I think it shows bad judgment at the very least.

Is this directed at me, August?

Because it really seems you have a reading comprehension problem.

[Gary Gibson]

I'm sorry I brought it up in the other thread. I just wanted to suggest that IGx, as a community, isn't inherently racist despite the use of that epithet.

Actually I think I used it first. I saw criticism following my post from you--an IGX member--I was wondering if I'd made it onto the hate list over there. Considering the nature of that board, if I were being discussed, I figured I'd have the slur applied pretty much right away.

[Shaf]

I'm not generally in the habit of tracking shit back and forth like that unless it has to do with someone who'd pissed me off in a significant fashion

As it stands, you lift, I lift. Kumbaya and all that shit. I've got no ill wishes towards anyone here and respect what's being put into place.

A community like this will grow and thrive if it's allowed to develop organically by people who care about it.

[stef]

Interesting POVs. But here and in other places I've lived, "nigger" is used primarily as a behavioral/cultural description rather than one based on "race".

Using a useful word is different than using it as an insult. In the latter case, the entire point is to find the best, most irritating one for whatever person you're working to piss off. For example, the correct one for a stupid, no-driving white chick in her 40s who just about killed you a minute ago probably includes "FAT". This is because pointing this out will probably ruin her day far more effectively than criticizing her driving, her mother, her ridiculous 8# dog or whatever else is handy.

[Shaf]

Do you still own that giant white dog, Stef?

[CThomas]

Minor thread hijack...


Is "boy" an offensive term?

It is a patronising term used by both the British and Americans when dealing with coloured people. However, I suspect that the use of "boy" is more evocative in America, than it is in the rest of the world.

As a (persumably) grown man, how would you feel if someone addressed you as "boy"?

Back in India, an Australian with a rather colonial attitude called my father "boy" during a professional disagreement. Did not go down well at all.

For the record, notwithstanding the above Australian, as an Indian I've seen far more racism (and just about every other form of discrimination) in India, by Indians, towards other Indians and foreigners, than I suspect I'll ever see here in Australia.


Back to the original thread...

I have fairly limited knowledge of black history, and I'm not American. The word "nigger", when used a racist slur, still conjures up the worst images of slavery and segregation and carries with it all the imagery of white supermacy. It is a little odd to me that some black people in America seem to be embracing this term today. Are they ignorant of their own history? I can think of no other word that deserves to die as much as this one does.

[Dastardly]

I'm not from the US so I really have no idea of it all.
and this is a serious question.

As a black person, is it offensive to be referred to as "boy"?

Not sure if it's a known moment, but here in Aus, a TV personality back many many years ago, in an award ceremony was presenting an award with Ali, and were doing the usual banter, when Ali said something and the white TV personality said "I like the boy" in response to Ali's joke.
and he honestly didn't think anything of it, and it was all taken in humor but Ali sort of gave him a "I'm gonna kill you" look etc etc.

Is "boy" an offensive term?

Just found a clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWKyDGGptA4

Calling someone "boy" is patronising/condescending. It has nothing to do with race. They were making jokes by poking fun at each other there, the presenter calling him boy is just a bit of humour considering Ali is such a "Man".

[GVA-66]

For example, the correct one for a stupid, no-driving white chick in her 40s who just about killed you a minute ago probably includes "FAT".

ROFLMFO. Now those would be some fightin' words!

[SamKeyworth]

@CThomas

Not trying to defend the other guy but, how did he use the word boy?

I think the Media both India and Australia have been blowing up this racism stuff.

First it was the the term "Monkey"
Next it was the Indian mugged in Australia
Whats next?

A bit off topic.

[LondonTiger]

Live in London, never heard anyone call another a nigger in real life, seen it plenty of times on youtube comments though, LOL.

I find it funny when white people complain about the fact that they can't say nigger when black people use it all the time.. It's weird.

I want to tell white people, guys chill out, you're not missing out on much.

Now go do some squats, or rack pulls.. :P

[August West]

Is this directed at me, August?

Because it really seems you have a reading comprehension problem.

I mean exactly what I said, no hidden subtext. I've got no reason to think you're out there throwing the term around, so no, it's not directed at you. I'm speaking about the people I've seen use that term on the internet like it's cool. Prompted by the exchange between you and Gary in the other thread, I ran a quick search for it at IGX and got the full range of results - from the goofy (where it's just a more dangerous way to say "dude") to the angry (namecalling) to the weirdly literal (labeling a black guy in a picture).

It is what it is, I'm not judging everyone on that site from a few people's remarks. You don't represent IGX any more than I represent this place. We're just people who say things on the internet, and each is only accountable for his own words. But I do think we should be accountable. I agree with you that it's best to just be yourself and say the same things online that you're willing to say in person.

[CThomas]

Sam,

He used it condescendingly. He was a right arsehole, trust me.

The term "monkey" is a common insult in India, and is usually not racist. That was a bit overdone, I agree.

And as for the media overplaying the recent muggings, I completely agree except that I think the Indian media has been grossly unrpofessional here, while most of the Australian media is too politically correct to dismiss the claim and point out the facts. I'm more than a little embarassed.

Indians generally like to cry racism at the drop of a hat, but this is more than a little hypocritical for a country where mob violence and genocide is still a regular occurence.

My AU$0.02.


PS: Sorry for the thread hijack guys. This stuff is a bit topical down under.

[PMDL]

Man you know what though? I was surprised to find out how racist Australia really is after living there awhile. It's not quite the same character as in the US, but man is it ever there.

I think you just don't tend to hear about it as much because it's not quite as powerful and with the history of institutionalized racism you found (find?) in the States.

[metermanja]

Sam,


Indians generally like to cry racism at the drop of a hat, but this is more than a little hypocritical for a country where mob violence and genocide is still a regular occurence.

My AU$0.02.

speak for yourself. Ironic that a gross generalisation of an ethnicity is being made in the same sentence where it is being condemned. Congrats you just made a convincing argument.

[SamKeyworth]

I don't know. I really don't see these words used that often apart from teenagers and stuff.

I feel it is used more to feel a sense of belonging than anything, could be wrong.

When I was at school, people used the:

W**-word
G***-word
N*****-word
N**-word
F**-word

You can use your imagination.

Gary, what do you think about comedians like Chris Rock?

[Dastardly]

I live in a part of england with a large south asian population.

In england, the most offensive word in the vocabulary is "paki"
this topped things like nigger and even swear words like Cunt in recent surveys.

Britain used to have an open entry policy to member of the British commonwealth so during the 50's & 60's people flooded in from the carribean and south asia. Often actively recruited by basic labour industries.

During the 70's & 80's there was strong recession and most of the working class white people were very angry at lack of jobs etc and were deeply jealous of the immigrants who had come in and were doing rather well. There was a big backlash against immigrants, and racism were born.

The british racists formed subcultures like skinheads, and organised activism groups like the national front. They very much like to cause "race riots" and go around in gangs beating up weak targets such as small asian men on their own. In many cases they would actually murder people and never ever get caught. Because there was such a strong culture of racism in white working class britain then that the police really didnt care.

The favourite words of these racists were "paki" for south asians and "wog" for black people. They were both extremely offensive and still hold very powerful historical-cultural meaning as terms like "paki" is what people would have heard before being beaten up/killed by racist gangs.

I, like most people have become quite numb to the term "nigga" due to its heavy use in american pop culture. But I guess if you are a black person who is not into the popular mainstream rap culture, then the term "nigga" automatically stirs the historical roots of "nigger" that wouldve been used by slavemasters and the KKK who regularly hung innocent black men.

In that context (which I think too few people actually remember) I think there could not be a more vulgar an offensive term and I totally feel what Gary must be feeling. It must be like a white person calling me a Paki, which feels Hooorrrrible!! One of the reasons it feels so horrible is that people like my dad faced the intensity of british racism, being regularly attacked and called "paki" or "black bastard" (even though he is not black) so I feel that strong empathetic link to the generation above me who suffered this so strongly.

The funny thing though, is that in the "bro's" community environment of inner city pakistani, bengali & indian people. Paki is a very acceptible abbreviation for pakistani. Someone might ask "yo blud, are you paki?" and I would say "na, Im bengali cuz"*

*This is how the bro's speak, not me. Added for humour.

[Dastardly]

Man you know what though? I was surprised to find out how racist Australia really is after living there awhile. It's not quite the same character as in the US, but man is it ever there.

I think you just don't tend to hear about it as much because it's not quite as powerful and with the history of institutionalized racism you found (find?) in the States.

There are two aussie soap opera's that are broadcast in the UK. I have always been shocked by the fact they have never had a black character, especially considering there is the large aboriginal population of australia. The tv shows make it seem like black people do not exist in australia.

Did you watch the formal apology to the aboriginals by the prime minister? That was the most insincere thing I have ever seen.

[CThomas]

Man you know what though? I was surprised to find out how racist Australia really is after living there awhile. It's not quite the same character as in the US, but man is it ever there.

I think you just don't tend to hear about it as much because it's not quite as powerful and with the history of institutionalized racism you found (find?) in the States.

Really? Care to share your experiences? As a fairly brown person my experience is that it exists, but among a minority and then too not terribly overt. Unless of course you're Aboriginal. The general attitude towards the native people here I find a bit lacking, although I can understand it to some degree.


@metermanja

Generalisations are quite useful. I don't think anyone was ever against making generalisations about a population, although one must be careful when doing so. As an Indian who lived there for a couple of decades, I do feel that I can make generalisations about Indians. Sue me.

The recent behaviour of the Indian media and public towards a few incidents in Australia (although no doubt some of the incidents would have had a racist element) proves my point quite conclusively, I think.

Sorry, but being politically correct is not very prodcutive.


@Sam

It is an interesting argument to what extent this sort of coloquial use of slurs "de-fangs" the terms, or perpetuates undesirable attitudes. It probably depends entirely on context, but my dislike for being uptight makes me lean towards the former. But, sensitivities must be respected.

I still dislike "nigger" more than others though. Just do.

[PMDL]

Well honestly the only time I ever saw any Aboriginals was living up in the NT. I don't recall ever seeing one in any of the big cities down south.

You'll see dark-skinned people, usually Indian or Asian background, with the occasional African refugee, but otherwise Australia kinda is...white

[SamKeyworth]

I have a feeling what two shows you are talking about, and I agree. It took them like 10 years to introduce an Asian. Next was a "goth", and then lesbian police officer.

PMDL, which state and suburb did you stay in Australia. I have lived, and travelled all around Australia, and I find it is the exact opposite.

Like with all countries, your going to have "certain places" like that, but that doesn't mean the rest of the place is like that.

[CThomas]

Australia kinda is...white

What's wrong with that? Do you think Africa is too black? South Asia too brown?

Australia's racial demographic is changing very rapidly. I actually worry about that, because rapid change tends to exacerbate racial tensions.

Aboriginals are nearly completely excluded from mainstream Australia. It's sad really.


@Dastardly

Nearly everything Rudd says sounds insincere. I thought the apology was well written, and so did most commentators here. Not much has changed however, two years on.

[metermanja]

@metermanja

Generalisations are quite useful. I don't think anyone was ever against making generalisations about a population, although one must be careful when doing so. As an Indian who lived there for a couple of decades, I do feel that I can make generalisations about Indians. Sue me.

The recent behaviour of the Indian media and public towards a few incidents in Australia (although no doubt some of the incidents would have had a racist element) proves my point quite conclusively, I think.

Sorry, but being politically correct is not very prodcutive.




No i wont be suing you, rest assured. You mistake discrimination with racism, which you dont understand the meaning of (that and genocide too). Discrimination exists everywhere, racism being a specific kind of it.

Secondly, the behaviour of every media has less to do with information dissemination and opinion making and is instead closely associated with profit generation. Controversy = money. To conclude that the unprofesssional and breathless reporting on the Times of India and other channels translates to a billion angry racist indians is naive and bordering on stupidity.

Thirdly and rather strangely i agree, political correcteness is really not of much use on an internet forum (politeness too for that matter apparently), but last i checked truth and honesty still havent gone out of fashion.

Your ethnicity gives you no credo and cannot be used to back up assertions that are logically incorrect. The gist of what you are saying is - "Them Indians are more racist in general that Australians are in general (and you have to believe me because i am Indian)". Doesnt the irony of that statement strike you.

[CThomas]

No i wont be suing you, rest assured. You mistake discrimination with racism, which you dont understand the meaning of (that and genocide too). Discrimination exists everywhere, racism being a specific kind of it.

I specifically differentiated between racism and other forms of discrimination. But is that really a point you want to defend? "We discriminate on religion, caste, language, gender and whatnot, but not skin colour" is not something we should put on our resume. It's all about creating an "us" and a "them".

As for genocide, I am specifically referring to the incidents of 1984, 1992 and 2003. Call them pogroms, massacres, whatever. Thousands died over religious tensions.

And to make it completely clear where I stand, I'm an agnostic, and members of my "minority community" (and other "minority communities") are just as rabid as anyone else. I see no differences in attitudes between religions.



Secondly, the behaviour of every media has less to do with information dissemination and opinion making and is instead closely associated with profit generation. Controversy = money. To conclude that the unprofesssional and breathless reporting on the Times of India and other channels translates to a billion angry racist indians is naive and bordering on stupidity.

The media gives the public what it wants. An unregulated media in a democracy is fair representation of public opinion.

EDIT: Removed anecdotes too political for a strength training board.



Thirdly and rather strangely i agree, political correcteness is really not of much use on an internet forum (politeness too for that matter apparently), but last i checked truth and honesty still havent gone out of fashion.

For the "sue me" retort, my apologies. You're right, politeness is still important.


Your ethnicity gives you no credo and cannot be used to back up assertions that are logically incorrect. The gist of what you are saying is - "Them Indians are more racist in general that Australians are in general (and you have to believe me because i am Indian)". Doesnt the irony of that statement strike you.

I appeal to my ethinicity only to say that I have first hand experience with Indians. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Yes, this might shock you, but populations are different in their attitudes. It is possible to draw comparisons.

While I defend them today, Australians have long history of racism. I don't attribute attitudes to race, as such. I'm only saying that they are prevalent in a population, today. For example, it is fair to say that Germans in the 1930s were rabidly anti-Semitic. It is not fair to say Germans (as a race) are inherently anti-Semitic. I actually think economic conditions probably do more to shape attitudes than anything else.


My point is that Indians really jumped the gun here calling Australia racist. This should be quite evident. And, secondly, we should be quite careful raking other people over coals when we have far worse shit happening in our own backyard.

[PMDL]

PMDL, which state and suburb did you stay in Australia. I have lived, and travelled all around Australia, and I find it is the exact opposite.

Like with all countries, your going to have "certain places" like that, but that doesn't mean the rest of the place is like that.

I lived in Darwin in the NT, which I said in the post right above, but I've traveled to every big city (beside Perth) multiple times.

Maybe it would be helpful if you defined what "like that" means.


What's wrong with that? Do you think Africa is too black? South Asia too brown?

Don't put words in my mouth, cocksucker. I didn't say it was bad, I said that's how it looks.

[CThomas]

Don't put words in my mouth, cocksucker. I didn't say it was bad, I said that's how it looks.

Whoah! And I didn't imply that you found this to be a bad thing.

My question was - what did you expect instead? Australia was less "white" than I expected. What were your expectations and why?

Cocksucker is a bit tetchy, no?

[TTT]

Well honestly the only time I ever saw any Aboriginals was living up in the NT. I don't recall ever seeing one in any of the big cities down south.

You'll see dark-skinned people, usually Indian or Asian background, with the occasional African refugee, but otherwise Australia kinda is...white

Very true..
it's all very localized for most communities.
Sadly, in major cities, the only aboriginals you will see are on park benches, a sleep or drunk and yelling at people.

Honestly, the percentage of hard working Aboriginals trying to better themselves are very VERY low.
the Majority get ALOT of government handouts and waste it on booze.

The city of Sydney has a suburb called Redfern.
if you want to see what it's like there, do a google maps search of redfern and go to street view and look around.
cars burnt out in the streets, houses with graffiti all over them, houses where the floor boards have been broken off and burnt in a big trash bin.

The communities in the outback (NT etc as you said), some are good, but most are bad.

It's a problem, but no-one seems to know how to fix it.
if the govt gets involved to assist, it's seen as though they are interfering.
if some do-gooders try anything, it's seen as "the white folk" can't tell us what to do on our land etc...

in most cities in Aus, there are mini communities of people from different race/culture.

Melbourne has the largest Greek community outside of greece.
Sydneys Leichhardt is pretty much little Italy.
Sydneys Cabramatta is all vietnamese
Auburn = Turks
Bankstown/lakemba = Lebanese

Aboriginals are the only communities who truly shit where they sleep (so to speak).

They pretty much fuck up every opportunity "given" to them.
and that is the main angst against them..
probably comes across as racist.

[Gary Gibson]

They pretty much fuck up every opportunity "given" to them.
and that is the main angst against them..
probably comes across as racist.

Like the opportunity to be slaughtered and have their land overrun by paleskin outsiders?

Don't get defensive. Surely you are aware that the aboriginal people of the Americas have the same sort of plight. In North America they're confined to reservations where alcoholism is a fairly serious problem.

Guys, honestly, you do understand the result of colonization, slavery, genocide and then continuing discrimination ("What the hell is wrong with those people whose land we stole, warriors we killed, women we raped and children we enslaved??! Why don't they just pick themselves up by their bootstraps!?") And before you get your panties in a snit, I know whites do it to each other (Ireland v England). Hell, it happens everywhere; you beat the shit out of your neighbor and take his stuff, but you all come together when someone even more different and vicious comes along and beats the shit out of both of you and takes all your shit. All the oppressed brown people of the world did the same internecine violence, robbery and rape to each other before the white man made the turf war global.

Governments make it even worse with the dole. It destroys whatever drive is left among a people. You've all seen your local racial minorities sitting back like sullen teenagers, blaming the white man for all their troubles and expecting reparation. I'm not saying there isn't a legacy at work beyond all our abilities to repair, but that doesn't entitle anyone to handouts and getting a pass on bad behavior.

There's not easy answer. Hell, I don't really think there's an answer. All I can do as a black dude smart enough to see how fucked it is to have the wrong parents is not pass on the curse to any offspring. I will leave no heirs.

[CThomas]

Guys, honestly, you do understand the result of colonization, slavery, genocide and then continuing discrimination ("What the hell is wrong with those people whose land we stole, warriors we killed, women we raped and children we enslaved??! Why don't they just pick themselves up by their bootstraps!?")

Well said Gary.

My father would tell me about tribal people in India being displaced by development. The government would come in and take their land (which was all they'd ever had), in exchange for currency these people had never seen before. Having lived as subsistence farmers off the land, the inevitable result of this displacement would be homelessness, unemployment and alcoholism.

TTT, what has been taken from Native Australians is their way of life. It's not as easy to adapt to the new world as you might think. This, and years of being put down create a cycle of poverty and abuse that is hard to break.

No need for mainstream Australia to flagellate itself to make amends, but the attitude of "look at all the handouts we give them, and all they do is drink" misses the bigger picture. Do try and put yourself in their shoes.

But like everyone else, I've had plenty of bad experiences with drunk aboriginals, and it does test your empathy.

It's a tough issue, and I don't know of an easy solution.

[drlvegas]

There's not easy answer. Hell, I don't really think there's an answer. All I can do as a black dude smart enough to see how fucked it is to have the wrong parents is not pass on the curse to any offspring. I will leave no heirs.

That is not the answer. A guy with common sense, a good heart, and who is not a pussy, needs to leave heirs. Your kids will not end up on "Cops". Your kids will improve white people's opinions of black people. You should have some. I would welcome them into my house to play with my kids.

The aboriginals in Australia seem to be be in the same shitty situation as the Native Americans in the US. I had a good friend in college whose father was a chief. They had a nice house, nice cars, nice everything pretty much. We went hunting on the reservation once, and I was taken back. The poverty was horrendous.

I do business with one of the local tribes. The tribal council members I deal with are very cool. Very into their culture, and all things Native American. I get invited to all the events they put on & go to all of them along with my family.

I don't know the answer, but the situation with the Native Americans in the US plain sucks.

[51M0n]

Wow, didn't realise there were so many aussies here (anybody from Canberra?)

Oddly enough, growing up in Tasmania in the 80's, I can remember as a child getting into a heap of trouble for singing

Eeny, meena, mina, mo,
Catch a nigger by the toe;
If he Hollers let him go,
Eena, meena, mina, mo.

The odd thing was I didn't have a clue what a nigger was (I thought it was an insect). I think the word has been replaced with tigger these days.

[Shaf]

There's a local tribe with a huge casino in Mt. Pleasant.

A full blooded member of the tribe makes a huge amount of money from his share of the casino profits.

While in many cases, this allows parents to send their kids off to a great college, but the kids are also making this kind of money, so there's not a lot of incentive to do anything else.

There are lots of drugs run up to Mt. Pleasant from Detroit and Flint and Saginaw, because the profit is much higher. What cost $20 in Flint might go for $80 on the reservation.

There's also a thriving blackmarket in untaxed cigarettes.

The money does good, there's no doubt about it. Better housing, better medical care, better quality of life, educational opportunities, etc, but it goes hand in hand with the bad stuff too.

No solution because that's human nature.

[Rorschach]

The whole casino thing seems dodgy as fuck to me. From what I've seen very little cash ends up in the actual community, it's just a few people getting very rich. Not to mention there are several fake tribes set up just to open a casino.

Oppressed indiginous people need support and protection, but casinos are a shitty way of doing so in my opinion.

[Shaf]

The # I remember hearing tossed around was like $220K yearly per full blooded member of the tribe.

$110K for half.

Etc.

I don't know if that is accurate. I'd have to look it up and I don't feel like researching.

Mt. Pleasant, MI, does not have a high cost of living, even in the Central Michigan University areas, but especially not on the reservation.

But there is a significant increase in crime in the area due to the casino. The fact that organized crime has it's fingers somewhere in the pie doesn't help either.

The Soaring Eagle casino regularly pays fines to the Michigan gambling oversight administration because they don't pay out as much as the state wants them to. They pay the fines instead, because it's cheaper than paying out at the games.

[Rorschach]

That doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

[jameson]

Gary,

This. Seriously.


That is not the answer. A guy with common sense, a good heart, and who is not a pussy, needs to leave heirs. Your kids will not end up on "Cops". Your kids will improve white people's opinions of black people. You should have some. I would welcome them into my house to play with my kids.

[Gary Gibson]

Just about to address that...

I have many other reasons not to want to reproduce, but the racial thing does play a very large role. I've spent over 30 years with this genetic endowment. I know the sort of body and mind genes like mine build and I know that the blueprints don't include much capacity or opportunity for happiness.

RE: Chris Rock.

I think he's a smart guy with a lot of good points, but I'm not sure he did anybody any good with his "Black People and Niggers" bit. I don't think "nigger" is a state of mind--as he implies--so much as it ugly shorthand for "you're somewhere between a monkey and a white man."

Chris does have a great bit that goes something like:


There's not a white person in this room who would trade places with me...and I'm RICH! There's a one-legged busboy hopping around in the back sayin' "I don't wanna' trade! I'm a' ride this white thing out and see where it takes me."

I don't even own a TV anymore, but I will find out about great series occasionally and watch the entire things on my laptop DVD in a week. "The Office" is my latest obsession. There's a scene where Michael Scott insists that his employees roast him and in typical Michael fashion he lists traits about him that he's really proud of as potential targets:

"It can be [about] my race, what an athletic build I have, what a womanizer I am..."

And that really says it all. I don't mean to malign my fine fellow forum members, but at some level white people are so happy to be born that way. "Doesn't everyone feel that way about their own race though?" is the common white person question when I say this. The answer is no. Black people have to actively work on feeling proud of themselves, hence all the black pride mantra that gets warped by neo-nazis with their white pride litany.

To be white is to be whole and to be black or brown is not just about being "different" so much as it is about being "less than" and "inferior to." Sometimes subconsciously and sometimes out loud, blacks and white agree on this. And "nigger" sums this all up in a tidy, little word.

[kreszentia]

Gary, do a lot of blacks seriously feel this way?

[Gary Gibson]

Gary, do a lot of blacks seriously feel this way?

I'll get in a lot of trouble for speaking for 30 million people, but...

Look at the evidence. Black empowerment often starts with just getting over the negative feelings about BEING BLACK in the first place. You get this subtle message your entire life that you are the remnant of a race only good enough to do the grunt work, that would not have gone to the moon, or developed the Internet, built the automobile. Let's be honest: we are all very subtly taught that blacks are incapable of technological advancement ("Just look at Africa") and that they are on average not quite as bright as whites or Asians. This is the message blacks internalize all their lives, that they really aren't as "evolved" as whites, that they may be stronger and faster, but they're not as smart.

That's why we're here talking about the word "nigger", because it sums all this up. That's why "honky" or "cracker" just doesn't carry the same punch. You can't make fun of someone for being white except for nonsense things like inherent dancing ability. But you CAN make fun of someone's blackness and it amounts to calling them retarded. Sorry that this is true, but it is. Whether there's scientific basis for it or not doesn't matter because everyone--whites, blacks, Asians, aboriginals, Jews--all believe it.

[hbriem]

That's very sad Gary. I'm sorry you feel that way as you're obviously a smart and talented guy.

[Raskolnikov]

Gary, have you known any blacks born and raised outside of the US? I ask because I became pretty good friends with a guy from Ghana when I was in college, and while we never really directly discussed the issue, he seemed to have a very different perspective on the issue of race. He seemed not to carry around the same amount of "baggage" as most American blacks; he never gave off the impression that his race had any bearing on his potential for success. (Although, admittedly, my impressions might be completely off base -- after all, white colonialism and racism are a part of his cultural history.)

[Gary Gibson]

Gary, have you known any blacks born and raised outside of the US? I ask because I became pretty good friends with a guy from Ghana when I was in college, and while we never really directly discussed the issue, he seemed to have a very different perspective on the issue of race. He seemed not to carry around the same amount of "baggage" as most American blacks; he never gave off the impression that his race had any bearing on his potential for success. (Although, admittedly, my impressions might be completely off base -- after all, white colonialism and racism are a part of his cultural history.)

I was born outside the U.S. and to this day I'm not a citizen here. I spent the first few years of my life outside the U.S. while most of my many maternal cousins born after me where born in Brooklyn, NYC. It's amazing how different the perceptions are from either side of the Atlantic. My formative adolescent years were spent in a little town where our house was vandalized with racial slurs so I'm a bit biased and wary of race problems.

I don't have any doubts as to my own abilities. But there is a constant perception that you have to fight and the earlier in life you begin to be steeped in it, the harder it is to keep it from saturating you.

I'll admit this though; even back in the old country, the more obvious white ancestry you had, the higher you were esteemed. This happens wherever whites have spread their genes. Latin America with its more pervasive mixing of white, black and Native is a great example.

[matclone]

I'll admit this though; even back in the old country, the more obvious white ancestry you had, the higher you were esteemed. This happens wherever whites have spread their genes. Latin America with its more pervasive mixing of white, black and Native is a great example.

Evidently a vestige of colonialism.

[matclone]

He seemed not to carry around the same amount of "baggage" as most American blacks; he never gave off the impression that his race had any bearing on his potential for success.

Your question sounds sincere, but I would be wary of generalizing about the characteristics of a race. I've noticed in the U.S. that people (especially in the popular media) often make generalizations about blacks, or other people of color, but one seldom hears generalizations about whites. I wonder why? (Actually, I think I know why: white people have been in power for several hundred years and, while our national culture is always changing, including views about race, we are a product of our past. The Iroquois nation supposedly had a saying to the effect that what you do today, will affect seven generations in the future. The more I know of history, the more that makes sense to me.)

[kreszentia]

Stunned.

As you can probably guess I'm not around a lot of blacks. Never spent much time thinking about it. Thank you for your thoughts.

I'm not retarded, just don't have any black people around me to educate me. I am aware of the history and contemporary situation of black americans. I just never would have imagined that even someone as intelligent, strong, and downright handsome as you would be affected too.

But I can understand. I can certainly understand. Thanks for taking the time to write this down.

[jameson]

And that really says it all. I don't mean to malign my fine fellow forum members, but at some level white people are so happy to be born that way. "Doesn't everyone feel that way about their own race though?" is the common white person question when I say this. The answer is no. Black people have to actively work on feeling proud of themselves, hence all the black pride mantra that gets warped by neo-nazis with their white pride litany.

To be white is to be whole and to be black or brown is not just about being "different" so much as it is about being "less than" and "inferior to." Sometimes subconsciously and sometimes out loud, blacks and white agree on this. And "nigger" sums this all up in a tidy, little word.

I don't agree with this, and do you really? Are you saying that you feel inferior because of your race? Wouldn't that involve someone telling you that you're inferior and you agreeing with it?

[Gary Gibson]

I don't agree with this, and do you really? Are you saying that you feel inferior because of your race? Wouldn't that involve someone telling you that you're inferior and you agreeing with it?

Not feeling inferior takes a lot of effort from blacks on the whole in this place. And even when you do "succeed" you feel like you're caught between two worlds, trying not "to act too white", but not be a "typical ebonics-spouting black."

We can all cry over how sad it is I feel this way, but the realities are what they are. I've lived the life. Most of you don't need to concern yourselves with these issues because you're white and don't question your place in this world racially. Have you lived as a minority? How are you able to judge my perceptions as one? Do you agree that SOMETHING is going on with minorities and how they relate to and perform in the white world? That there are patterns that might be explained by some of the dirty laundry I'm sharing here?

Just asking.

[matclone]

I don't agree with this, and do you really? Are you saying that you feel inferior because of your race? Wouldn't that involve someone telling you that you're inferior and you agreeing with it?

I thought Gary's explanation was very clear. The concept is not difficult. Most, if not all of us, have probably internalized some sort of inferiority based on our status in life. I mean, not all of our parents were rich, or educated, or good-looking, and we felt a sense that we would not be part of those who were. It's fine to say you can achieve anything you want in life but that's a simplistic aspiration. It's the Horatio Alger myth. If no one in your family ever went to college (and in my baby boomer generation, that was a fact for most black people), you are less likely to think you can go, or get it done, or get support from anyone for going. There will always be exceptions, but the residual effects of past race relations in America, (don't let them read!) seems evident.

[jameson]

Not feeling inferior takes a lot of effort from blacks on the whole in this place. And even when you do "succeed" you feel like you're caught between two worlds, trying not "to act too white", but not be a "typical ebonics-spouting black."

We can all cry over how sad it is I feel this way, but the realities are what they are. I've lived the life. Most of you don't need to concern yourselves with these issues because you're white and don't question your place in this world racially. Have you lived as a minority? How are you able to judge my perceptions as one? Do you agree that SOMETHING is going on with minorities and how they relate to and perform in the white world? That there are patterns that might be explained by some of the dirty laundry I'm sharing here?

Just asking.

Gary, you're right, I don't have the right (or ability) to accurately judge your perceptions as a minority. However, one of my best friends is black and he does not share your view. I only posted after a brief conversation with him. He does not feel inferior. He acts how he wants to act; he enjoys not following the crowd (either white or black) because he's a person - not a race. He does, however, acknowledge the generalizations made about both races and is not unaffected by them. He also married into a white family and was subjected to his share of resistance. I do agree with you that minorities act in accordance to the way they view the world. I'm not saying there aren't racial prejudices, unfair advantages, and the like. That certainly affects the livelyhood of all races. What I am saying is that just because someone tells me something doesn't mean that I believe it.

[metermanja]

Gary,

I think the world as we see today is defined more by Judeo-Christian beliefs rather than White beliefs and values. biases did exist by the conquerors agasint the conquered in every part of the world where conflicts happened. That fact that skin color was the most obvious difference made it easier to set this as the differentiating and decisive proof of perceived superiority.
If all people had been of the same color, the factor would have been height or the ability to squat 405lb whatever but it would exist in another form.

I am a religious minority and a color minority, but neither have been a factor in my experience in the US. I am actually saddened to say that the one exception was an incident when a black guy threatened to kill me and called me,it was i believe, Abdul.

[jameson]

I thought Gary's explanation was very clear. The concept is not difficult. Most, if not all of us, have probably internalized some sort of inferiority based on our status in life. I mean, not all of our parents were rich, or educated, or good-looking, and we felt a sense that we would not be part of those who were. It's fine to say you can achieve anything you want in life but that's a simplistic aspiration. It's the Horatio Alger myth. If no one in your family ever went to college (and in my baby boomer generation, that was a fact for most black people), you are less likely to think you can go, or get it done, or get support from anyone for going. There will always be exceptions, but the residual effects of past race relations in America, (don't let them read!) seems evident.

You have a good way of showing your arrogance don't you? I understood the concept. It's one thing to have realistic expectations, but an entirely different thing to feel inferior/superior to someone else.

[Chewie_jrc]

Just wanted to say that I have enjoyed reading your threads Gary. I was a little hesitant to open this one but it's actually been quite civil. You've been an inspiration to a lot of people on this forum....

[Gary Gibson]

Jameson, you're probably going to take this the wrong way--I would--but the fact that your friend married outside his race says an awful lot about him. I date almost exclusively outside my race and I confess it says a lot about me. I'm most attracted to black women physically, but my speech is non-regional American English and a lot of my literary, scientific and political interests are mainly shared by white people. I end up dating them.

Don't cry for us, Argentina. Race is just one of those things that you have to factor into your pluses and minuses columns, like how tall you are, how attractive you are, etc. For some of us it goes into the pluses column along with being 6'4" and symmetrical. For others it goes into the minuses column along with acne and a club foot.

Chewie, we can no more leave our tendency to "tribe up" behind us anymore than we can leave bipedalism behind us. This is part of the reason I believe truly rational people would refuse to reproduce. Biological life is sordid, dirty trick. I believe in making the most out of the one you have (read, think, squat twice your bodyweight, learn a musical instrument, orgasm as frequently as you can), but don't keep the farce going beyond yourself. I thumb my nose at life, evolution and the whole pointless mess.

Edit: jameson's friend...

I know that's going to come off as presumptuous and offensive...but that's the way black people think of black people who chase white mates. My sister has a white mate and a little white baby (not legally white since you have to be 100% white to be white, but we are of very recent mixed ancestry and the baby came out REALLY white-looking). I'm not against it, but no matter how I feel, the general perception of the phenomenon lingers like a bad smell.

My solution has been to cut off as much contact with the outside world as possible and interact with e-tribes of my choosing, like those about squatting a lot of weight. That and a bucket load of black porn.

[matclone]

You have a good way of showing your arrogance don't you? I understood the concept.

You haven't said anything to make me think you do.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

WHat about whites who chase blacks? There is a guy I work with that is the poster boy for American eagle, except he's 6' 150 lbs. He dates almost exclusively non-whites, about 2/3 black and 1/3 asian. That what he likes. It doesn't say much about him, other than we can rarely agree on where to go on Friday night (I hate hip hop, he hates house and trance).

[Patrick]

I came in late to this party so I'm probably not plugged in, but I've got two cents on this question.

I grew up in Harlingen, TX and my best friend was a mexican kid. I moved to Virginia when I was about seven and saw the first black person I had encountered... who I assumed to be a mexican with a really dark tan. I didn't give it two thoughts cause he liked Nintendo Power magazine and playing basketball just like I did. He turned out to be my best friend for a long time. In the time we were best friends, I saw the first schoolyard bully call him the n-word (we were about 10) and I saw his reaction when the guy across the street flew a confederate flag (about 18 or so) because of the "heritage." (Props to my dad, who told the guy -- a nice guy -- what that did to my friend's family and got him to take it down and apologize personally.)

The hatred and spirit-crushing capacity built into that word are just not appreciated by people who haven't seen it used in its full venom, and they've never seen the life leave the face of a third grade friend who, up until then, didn't realize he was less than a person.

[PMDL]

I'll get in a lot of trouble for speaking for 30 million people, but...

Look at the evidence. Black empowerment often starts with just getting over the negative feelings about BEING BLACK in the first place. You get this subtle message your entire life that you are the remnant of a race only good enough to do the grunt work, that would not have gone to the moon, or developed the Internet, built the automobile. Let's be honest: we are all very subtly taught that blacks are incapable of technological advancement ("Just look at Africa") and that they are on average not quite as bright as whites or Asians. This is the message blacks internalize all their lives, that they really aren't as "evolved" as whites, that they may be stronger and faster, but they're not as smart.

That's why we're here talking about the word "nigger", because it sums all this up. That's why "honky" or "cracker" just doesn't carry the same punch. You can't make fun of someone for being white except for nonsense things like inherent dancing ability. But you CAN make fun of someone's blackness and it amounts to calling them retarded. Sorry that this is true, but it is. Whether there's scientific basis for it or not doesn't matter because everyone--whites, blacks, Asians, aboriginals, Jews--all believe it.

Gary I'd raise the counter-point that this is almost entirely, if not completely, a product of several hundred years of colonial imperialism, mainly from Renaissance and Modern era Europeans, but shit this extends back through Western civilization even to the Romans and Greeks. Africa was there for the taking, and it was taken by whomever was in charge.

That's a lot of cultural inertia to overcome. I'd like to think that in a post-Enlightenment era, we can kinda start to overcome that - but then I do often let my optimism get in the way of human stupidity, which is never a good position to take.

I retain my optimism for some future date, once enough of the bitter old people have died off and we've had a few more generations of people that don't remember shit like lynchings and government-sponsored segregation.

[jameson]

Jameson, you're probably going to take this the wrong way--I would--but the fact that your friend married outside his race says an awful lot about him. I date almost exclusively outside my race and I confess it says a lot about me. I'm most attracted to black women physically, but my speech is non-regional American English and a lot of my literary, scientific and political interests are mainly shared by white people. I end up dating them.

I appreciate your candor, but you're speaking of other people's views of him - not his view of himself. He just finds his wife attractive and they share similar interests (same reason I married my wife). Perhaps I'm wrong, dunno. Anyway, I've really enjoyed this thread. It's been enlightening. I appreciate your feelings towards the subject, and I'm glad that you brought it up.

[MAD9692]

[QUOTE=Gary Gibson;102423]
Look at the evidence. Black empowerment often starts with just getting over the negative feelings about BEING BLACK in the first place. You get this subtle message your entire life that you are the remnant of a race only good enough to do the grunt work, that would not have gone to the moon, or developed the Internet, built the automobile. Let's be honest: we are all very subtly taught that blacks are incapable of technological advancement ("Just look at Africa") and that they are on average not quite as bright as whites or Asians. This is the message blacks internalize all their lives, that they really aren't as "evolved" as whites, that they may be stronger and faster, but they're not as smart.
QUOTE]

I think these are the feelings that many iner city black & hispanic people have, whether they would admit this or not. I am of hispanic descent and I was born and raised in the suburbs of LI NY. I don't feel anything like this, even though people called me a spic when I was younger. It never bothered me and I never thought of myself as being any different or better or worse than anyone else because of it. (The only people I felt inferior to were the rich kids. I think that this was solely because they pulled the hotter girls) Anyway I have cousins that grew up and currently live in housing projects in NY and they feel very similar to what Gary said above. I am not certain but I doubt too many black or hispanic people that come from money and are well educated feel anything like this.

[MAD9692]

It is no more or less right for Gary to call me a white bread honky than for me to call him a nigger.

True, but if someone called you a honky I'm sure it would piss you off, but it probably wouldn't want to make you beat the fuck out of the guy. Try calling Gary a nigger and see what happens....
You can call someone a bitch or a fat piece of shit or a redneck and these are all things that would piss someone off. However when you call a black person a nigger .... thats a whole other ball game.

[MAD9692]

I grew up in the South, and there's a lot of inertial racism still built into the culture there. It is improving a lot among the younger generations - in some ways, people my age and younger are more integrated racially than other parts of the country - but you still see it hardcore in the old-guard.


I have recently moved to the south and the racism thing here is really fucking weird. Take my neighbor for instance, he's white and he's a huge football fan. This guy will make refrences about niggers, darkies, and all kinds of retarted shit. But at the same time he's the first to shell out $500 bucks for a signed autograph photo of a black player. He'll take his kids to get autographs of the players (who are predominantly black) and in the next breath he'll make a comment about the "dirty niggers" in the city in front of his kids. WEIRD shit. I hung out with all his buddies to watch a game and they generally all had the same behavior. I don't get it.

[Gary Gibson]

True, but if someone called you a honky I'm sure it would piss you off, but it probably wouldn't want to make you beat the fuck out of the guy. Try calling Gary a nigger and see what happens....
You can call someone a bitch or a fat piece of shit or a redneck and these are all things that would piss someone off. However when you call a black person a nigger .... thats a whole other ball game.

Heh. Could you imagine?

"I'm a nig-ger woman...so let's hear a big 'hells heah!' from the nigger girls like me!"

I make light to underscore the point. It's indeed a whole different ballgame. Just is. I spent way too much time today trying to explain why it's not the same as emo, Trekkie, fatso, bitch, rich boy, poor boy, bastard, etc. Any of these things may get you in a fight, but...

[PMDL]

That, or the guys that will do that and then fire up the latest hip-hop album

Or even go hang around with black people, in some of the more bizarro instances I've seen.

It's not at all uncommon to hear guys slinging around every nasty insult they can think of one minute, and then be completely friendly with black people the next. I really think it's more a cultural legacy than real hate in some of these cases. Not all, but some.

[jameson]

Thanks for getting "Redneck Woman" stuck in my head.

[Gary Gibson]

I have recently moved to the south and the racism thing here is really fucking weird. Take my neighbor for instance, he's white and he's a huge football fan. This guy will make refrences about niggers, darkies, and all kinds of retarted shit. But at the same time he's the first to shell out $500 bucks for a signed autograph photo of a black player. He'll take his kids to get autographs of the players (who are predominantly black) and in the next breath he'll make a comment about the "dirty niggers" in the city in front of his kids. WEIRD shit. I hung out with all his buddies to watch a game and they generally all had the same behavior. I don't get it.



That, or the guys that will do that and then fire up the latest hip-hop album

Or even go hang around with black people, in some of the more bizarro instances I've seen.

It's not at all uncommon to hear guys slinging around every nasty insult they can think of one minute, and then be completely friendly with black people the next. I really think it's more a cultural legacy than real hate in some of these cases. Not all, but some.

And into this world I have to set one careful, black foot in front of the other.

These are just a couple scenarios, but I hope you all see that I'm not just being paranoid or feeling sorry for myself and those who look like me. We minorities have to suspect that any white person out there really does harbor these feelings toward us, no matter how much they cheer on Michael Jordon or Barack Obama or smile in our faces and claim racism is "a thing of the past" and how enlightened they are.

[TTT]

I'm of "Middle Eastern Appearance"
so I try to shave daily before the terrorist jokes start. lol

[Ryan Long]

Gary,

Thanks for your comments and the patience to express them. I won't try to apply your feelings to all minorities but will definitely store it in the bone vault.

Great article by the way about lifting gear, it totally changed my thinking about training and as a result my numbers have been flying up.

Ryan

[Gary Gibson]

Gary,

Thanks for your comments and the patience to express them. I won't try to apply your feelings to all minorities but will definitely store it in the bone vault.

Great article by the way about lifting gear, it totally changed my thinking about training and as a result my numbers have been flying up.

Ryan

Thank you very much. Really means a lot.

And thank the rest of you for your kind words. I can't bring myself to repost them, but you know who you are and I appreciate it. Still not passing on any genes, but that's a whole other thread. We'll get more existential later on.

[misspelledgeoff]

Gary won't procreate but msingh probably will---one reason humanity is destined to fail.



Thank you very much. Really means a lot.

And thank the rest of you for your kind words. I can't bring myself to repost them, but you know who you are and I appreciate it. Still not passing on any genes, but that's a whole other thread. We'll get more existential later on.

[TomV]

A little late to the game as it was a few pages back,

I'm an Australian (British Bitza heritage), and I still see racism around fairly often in our society. With that being said, I believe as a nation we're improving. 50 years ago, to be Italian or Greek was a flaw. Now I think people are accustomed to these cultures and are more focused on newer migrants culture, not helped by the media in some instances (Arabian, African some Asian cultures).

In regards to the Aboriginal "situation", those people as a race have experienced an absolutely terrible time, far beyond the comprehension of most white Australians. To say that "Well, we give them money now so doesn't that fix it?" is just foolish. Simply throwing money at a problem does not improve it.

This thread is very interesting to me as someone who doesn't live in America. In Australia the word "nigger" carries very little weight (in my experience) and so, due to its use in mainstream rap culture in America will often be heard being used in a similar context in Australia. I remember I was joking around with mates one day and one of my friends said "nigger", not in a derogatory way, in front of my stepfather who is Canadian. He was taken aback and is still uncomfortable hearing the word as when he was growing up, he was taught that it simply should not be said.

[MAD9692]

http://ebaumnation.com/2009/02/10/job-interview-chevy-chase-and-richard-pryor

[Dastardly]

I'm of "Middle Eastern Appearance"
so I try to shave daily before the terrorist jokes start. lol

Im really feeling you there. These damn terrorists have ruined everything.

Anyone either south asian or arab is under so much damn suspicion for everything. Everyone I know who has travelled to the USA, none of them actually islamic at all, has had to spend hours in interrogation.

I would dread to think what it would be like for someone who is actually full-on beard trying to travel to the usa to study chemistry or get flying lessons!

[Gwynn]

Good job on grappling with one of the most complex and heartbreaking issues out there. I don't really have much to add, except for a couple of things that may seem obvious to some, but are difficult to keep in mind when discussing racism.

Everyone can only speak for herself. Gary is obviously very articulate and always worth listening to. But he does not speak for all black men. No one person can and it's unrealistic to assume a single person can represent all others based upon any one shared attribute.

I'll go a little further here and state unequivocally that the best single thing anyone can try to do is attempt to make no assumptions about people you don't know or have just met. If you have to make a quick judgment about someone who is a stranger, base it upon how they behave and not how they dress or what they look like.

If your choice of language offends someone, that's a learning experience. If you offend someone you can apologize. Or you can offer debate. I am so tired of hearing people (not on this board, I'm not pointing fingers here) sneering to each other about politically correct behavior (likening it to that of mindless sheep) as a preface to saying some fucked up shit that they hope no one will call them on.

Trust me, if you're alive you're going to offend someone sometime. Then you might get called out. It's not the end of the world. That's one of the things I like about this board by the way. No one seems to be walking on eggshells in order to avoid offending someone.

Ok, nuff said.

[Gwynn]

I'll go a little further here and state unequivocally that the best single thing anyone can try to do is attempt to make no assumptions about people you don't know or have just met.

Well, now I have to argue with myself here. Pattern recognition is an innate skill that has proven its utility. So we all make assumptions and to deny that would be futile. I really should have said that the best single thing anyone can try to do is to recognize the assumptions we do make about other people as our ideas, and not confuse those ideas with what is actually in front of us.

[Rorschach]

Indeed. Everyone's racist to some extent, whether or not we let our actions be dictated by that defines you.