Is rest the best for recovery?

[Dastardly]

Recently I have been avoiding any exercise other than my barbell training. This is both in the hope of helping recovery and for not unnecessarily burning precious calories.

This differs quite greatly since before this winter, when I was doing a lot of cycling and a lot of general active messing around with skateboarding, basketball etc..

For the past 3-4 months I have however been doing NOTHING but the barbell training sessions. I have also ramped up my eating to as much as I can financially and volumetrically manage.

I was just wondering if this is the best course of action? It hasnt actually helped my progress much. When I was doing a lot more and eating less I was progressing faster but it may just have been due to being more of a beginner. But I am finding endurance harder definitely, in terms of higher heartrates kept for longer and the feeling of higher alertness/more energy.

I also have more persistent aches & pains now than when being a lot more active.

What have your experiences been?

Does regular participation in other sports/activity actually work better than doing nothing else?

[BruteForce]

Recently I have been avoiding any exercise other than my barbell training. This is both in the hope of helping recovery and for not unnecessarily burning precious calories.

This differs quite greatly since before this winter, when I was doing a lot of cycling and a lot of general active messing around with skateboarding, basketball etc..

For the past 3-4 months I have however been doing NOTHING but the barbell training sessions. I have also ramped up my eating to as much as I can financially and volumetrically manage.

I was just wondering if this is the best course of action? It hasnt actually helped my progress much. When I was doing a lot more and eating less I was progressing faster but it may just have been due to being more of a beginner. But I am finding endurance harder definitely, in terms of higher heartrates kept for longer and the feeling of higher alertness/more energy.

I also have more persistent aches & pains now than when being a lot more active.

What have your experiences been?

Does regular participation in other sports/activity actually work better than doing nothing else?

It depends entirely on your training goals. Is rest, recovery, and your food important? Yes, more than any other aspect of your training.

If your goal is to become as strong as you can in the weight room as fast as you can, then yes, you should do nothing but train the weights. If your cardio is suffering and you are worried about it, do some cardio every day, if you wanna play a sport, cut back on the weights and play your sport.

You need to define your goal if you would like specific advice, but the simple answer to your question is yes, rest is just as important for recovery as is your diet.

brute

[msingh]

If your goal is to become as strong as you can in the weight room as fast as you can, then yes, you should do nothing but train the weights. If your cardio is suffering and you are worried about it, do some cardio every day, if you wanna play a sport, cut back on the weights and play your sport.

Dont know about that. The guys who do best on these boards seem to incorporate a good amount of conditioning work in addition to strength training. They're quite fit. Not doing conditioning work might help you get 70sbig (ha), and i'm sure it leads to longer rest periods between sets (10 minutes bro for heavy presses), but i'm not sure that's such a great thing.

[Mr.City]

Your spiel is getting old, Msingh. Your argument is nothing but hearsay and your complaints stem from not following the proper nutritional guidelines, not the program itself.

[Mr.City]

Dastardly, could you give a typical day of eating for you? Also ,how much sleep?

[msingh]

Getting old? As far as I know that was the first time someone has made a link between the typically long rest periods of people training according to the ss.com principles and poor conditioning. It makes sense that as guys go months without doing anything but lifting and dont work on their conditioning, eat to grow much fatter, that their rest periods between sets go up from poor conditioning

[Dastardly]

I want to focus absolutely on strength. I do not care about cardio/endurance fitness unless it affects the lifts.

I only mentioned the endurance thing because I noticed it slightly. I can feel this quite strongly on my power cleans (actually hang cleans) where I am making little progress and just ending up rather tired. I cannot clean anymore now than I could do during the summer. It hasnt really moved on.

I may just be imagining it, but I feel that I used to have a lot more energy over many more sets than I do now. Was working with 5x5 last year and never felt "too tired" to be explosive for cleans. I was also doing more exercises. This may be the weather or other factors. But I feel it is a possibility that I was riding my bike hard in the summer.

What is more important to me is how it affects muscle recovery. Will doing more moderate exercise help me progress squat, deads, press & bench better? Or is NO physical activity really the best option here.

[Mr.City]

Have you ever given thought of the conditioning work created by the strength exercise itself? While not incredible, SS does improve conditioning somewhat.

[PVC]

Have you ever given thought of the conditioning work created by the strength exercise itself? While not incredible, SS does improve conditioning somewhat.

(for an unconditioned individual)

[msingh]

Have you ever given thought of the conditioning work created by the strength exercise itself? While not incredible, SS does improve conditioning somewhat.

Maybe it's better than NOTHING. but that's not saying much.

[Dastardly]

Dastardly, could you give a typical day of eating for you? Also ,how much sleep?

I have been writing this down in my log recently.

yesterdays eating: Non training day.


orange juice, 2 scrambled eggs, a plate full of chips (like thick cut fries) with a helping of green peas,, Tea.

Chicken & potato Curry (made sure to eat some bone marrow & liver too), with rice.

Cup of Tea.

A whole thin crust pizza, with a lot of cheese.

Glass of Milk, 5 homemade chicken burgers in a sandwich, with butter.

Cod Liver oil, Tea.

[Mr.City]

I want to focus absolutely on strength. I do not care about cardio/endurance fitness unless it affects the lifts.

I only mentioned the endurance thing because I noticed it slightly. I can feel this quite strongly on my power cleans (actually hang cleans) where I am making little progress and just ending up rather tired. I cannot clean anymore now than I could do during the summer. It hasnt really moved on.

I may just be imagining it, but I feel that I used to have a lot more energy over many more sets than I do now. Was working with 5x5 last year and never felt "too tired" to be explosive for cleans. I was also doing more exercises. This may be the weather or other factors. But I feel it is a possibility that I was riding my bike hard in the summer.

What is more important to me is how it affects muscle recovery. Will doing more moderate exercise help me progress squat, deads, press & bench better? Or is NO physical activity really the best option here.

Well, how much has the weight gone up on your lifts? The heavier the load gets, the bigger toll it takes on you. I rest a good 8-9 minutes between squats, not because I'm winded, but I feel worn.

Your clean issue could stem from a form errors.

Dastardly, that looks like quite a bit food. Any idea how many calories that is.

@PVC: Absolutely, I should of mentioned that.

[Expat]

Dastardly,

I pretty much agree with BruteForce, but I'd add that a lot of this comes down to the individual.

If you're unhappy with the decrease in your cardio abilities, try working in a short, light cardio workout once a week and see how it affects your recovery from lifting. If it doesn't have a negative effect, try increasing the intensity, duration, and even frequency. When it does affect your recovery (and it will negatively affect your recovery at some point), you will need to pull back on the cardio.

All this needs to be within reason. You can't try to hit PRs past 2x bodyweight squats and train for a marathon on your off days and have your body recover from both. On the other hand, nobody expects you to absolutely nothing on your off days either. I figure if construction workers and firemen can do SS, I can do more than sit behind my desk during my recovery periods.

Right now I do very light cardio twice a week and a moderate cardio session once a week. I think it is helping me to lose weight and it doesn't seem to be affecting my recovery at all yet. that said, I'm working with weights well below my previous maxes because I had hernia surgery in January. As my weights get heavier, I may have to cut back on the cardio to make gains.

MSingh: You are flat out wrong about people needing 10 minutes to recover between sets because of lack of general conditioning. SS provides only limited cardiovascular training, but it is enough to suppport the demands of SS. Ten minutes seems a bit excessive to me, but heavier weights require more recovery time, and it isn't because heart and lungs can't keep up. I would be willing to bet that the members of the board you identify as having good general fitness still need relatively long periods of rest when they're close to PR sets.

[BruteForce]

orange juice, 2 scrambled eggs, a plate full of chips (like thick cut fries), Tea.

Chicken & potato Curry (made sure to eat some bone marrow & liver too), with rice.

Cup of Tea.

A whole thin crust pizza, with a lot of cheese.

Glass of Milk, 5 homemade chicken burgers in a sandwich, with butter.

Cod Liver oil, Tea.

That is nowhere near enough food. Not even close. There's your recovery issue right there. I see 175-200 grams of protien there maybe. You need to double or triple that amount at least and then you'll start recovering.

[ZKP]

That is nowhere near enough food. Not even close. There's your recovery issue right there? I see 100 - 125 grams of protien there maybe. You need to double or triple that amount at least and then you'll start recovering.

I have no idea what food goes for over there, but really add on the eggs. Eat them in denominations of 6. Two eggs is nothing if you're serious. They have to be cheap. I know tea is a big thing for you guys, cant you have a liter of milk with it? and some eggs? Try to eat more buddy....

[BruteForce]

Dastardly, you need to get a lot more of your calories from protein. You're getting a moderate amount of protein in but its nothing compared to the insane amount of carbs you are eating. A carb won't rebuild your muscle. Turn that pizza into a 10 oz hamburger with whole grain bun and lettuce and tomato. eat 6 or more eggs in the morning. Have a big ass steak at night. Get that protein number up there and you won't have recovery issues anymore.

As far as cardio goes, we had a big long ass argument on that subject. just search it.

[Dastardly]

I have managed to put on some weight recently, but I still weigh 170lb tops.

According to the general rule of 1g protein per 1lb bodyweight, I should be just about getting it.

My average diet seems to have roughly the same meat, egg & milk quantities suggested in Bill Starr's book. He also states the 1g per lb rule in there too.

Most of my calories has to come from fat & carbs, it is plainly just a lot cheaper. Eggs & meat are expensive. If I was in the USA I could probably do it, but not here in Europe.

Everyone seems to be suggesting getting 5000+ kcal a day. But how is a person supposed to achieve this without a ton of carbs too?

Arent calories (from any source) necessary for recovery? I also hear so many people saying Carb's are the best for putting on weight. And even in PP it suggests that insulin is the most exploitable anabolic hormone. More carbs = more insulin right?

And more insulin (while hitting my protein & calorie requirements) is what supposedly causes the epic weight gain isnt it? I mean isnt the whole carb/sugar thing the reason why GOMAD works?

This thread is getting very diet related, as everything here tends to :rolleyes:

I was really just interested about how regular sports type exercise affects a strength training programme.

[BruteForce]

I have managed to put on some weight recently, but I still weigh 170lb tops.

According to the general rule of 1g protein per 1lb bodyweight, I should be just about getting it.

My average diet seems to have roughly the same meat, egg & milk quantities suggested in Bill Starr's book. He also states the 1g per lb rule in there too.

Most of my calories has to come from fat & carbs, it is plainly just a lot cheaper. Eggs & meat are expensive. If I was in the USA I could probably do it, but not here in Europe.

Everyone seems to be suggesting getting 5000+ kcal a day. But how is a person supposed to achieve this without a ton of carbs too?

Arent calories (from any source) necessary for recovery? I also hear so many people saying Carb's are the best for putting on weight. And even in PP it suggests that insulin is the most exploitable anabolic hormone. More carbs = more insulin right?

And more insulin (while hitting my protein & calorie requirements) is what supposedly causes the epic weight gain isnt it? I mean isnt the whole carb/sugar thing the reason why GOMAD works?

This thread is getting very diet related, as everything here tends to :rolleyes:

I was really just interested about how regular sports type exercise affects a strength training programme.

You believe that 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight is sufficient, you are eating WAAAAAYYY more fats and carbs than protein, and you wonder why you are stuck at 170lbs. That is funny

the title of your post = "Is rest the best for recovery," not, "How does regular sports type exercise affect a strength training program." If you aren't eating or sleeping enough, it doesnt matter what you are training for, you won't recover, period.

Double that protein intake, stay hydrated, do a couple days of cardio per week, and you won't have any recovery issues.

And since you are 170 lbs, DRINK YOUR G.O.M.A.D.!

[Dastardly]

If I have understood it right, a gallon of milk has 200g of carbohydrate.

I have explained in other threads, that I cannot handle more than 1 pint of milk per day without getting violent bowel explosions. But I am trying to increase it steadily.

I would love the convenience of GOMAD, for hitting both calorie and protein targets easily. But people seem to forget that milk has a fuckload of carbs, fat & sugar too. So it is pretty similar to being on a carb/fat heavy diet anyway.

SS doesnt even have much diet advice in it, but bill starrs book has quite a lot. Is the 1g per lb of bodyweight really insufficient?

Like I explained, I cannot afford much more protein. I am going to start eating a can of fish on training days. And hope I can gradually increase my milk tolerance.

[BruteForce]

If I have understood it right, a gallon of milk has 200g of carbohydrate.

I have explained in other threads, that I cannot handle more than 1 pint of milk per day without getting violent bowel explosions. But I am trying to increase it steadily.

I would love the convenience of GOMAD, for hitting both calorie and protein targets easily. But people seem to forget that milk has a fuckload of carbs, fat & sugar too. So it is pretty similar to being on a carb/fat heavy diet anyway.

SS doesnt even have much diet advice in it, but bill starrs book has quite a lot. Is the 1g per lb of bodyweight really insufficient?

Like I explained, I cannot afford much more protein. I am going to start eating a can of fish on training days. And hope I can gradually increase my milk tolerance.

You are 170 lbs. You need the milk. You also need much more food proteins. Tuna fish is 22 grams per can, and its super cheap. 1 lb of 93/7 ground beef is 88+ grams of protein, and its 3 dollars. What did you pay for that frozen pizza you ate? how often do you eat out? you should be able to eat 300 grams of food protein for about 10 bucks or so a day. But thats only if you want to get to a respectable body weight. If you wanna put on weight, you have to eat. It doesn't matter how you train, if you don't eat enough, you won't grow.

1 gram of protein per pound is certainly insufficient.

[Rorschach]

You can get free-range eggs for about 10p each in bulk. 60p for a mighty breakfast omelette that a growing man should have no problem polishing off.
Tinned sardines go for 30p a can, tuna's even cheaper in bulk (though less nutritious). Sardines aren't the tastiest of fish, but them's good eatin'.
Own-brand mixed nuts, cheap mince, own-brand frozen mixed veg, etc etc. Put a bit of planning into your shop, buy in bulk where you can, and avoid frivolities.
You can get a lot of decent calories on a tight budget, it just requires more effort/discipline.

[Dastardly]

1 lb of 93/7 ground beef is 88+ grams of protein, and its 3 dollars. What did you pay for that frozen pizza you ate?

1lb of beef here is closer to $6

The pizza was homemade.

I do not eat out unless it is cheap fried fast food which is no more expensive than home food.

I get the message here, I just bought a bunch of canned fish which I will eat on training days in addition to existing diet. But it isnt cheap either. 150g of canned tuna is about $1.50

This might all sound like small pennies, but it adds up. Its gonna take some getting used to having my diet cost like 4 times more than it used to. But I guess I will have to buckle up and do it.

[Dastardly]

You can get free-range eggs for about 10p each in bulk. 60p for a mighty breakfast omelette that a growing man should have no problem polishing off.
Tinned sardines go for 30p a can, tuna's even cheaper in bulk (though less nutritious). Sardines aren't the tastiest of fish, but them's good eatin'.
Own-brand mixed nuts, cheap mince, own-brand frozen mixed veg, etc etc. Put a bit of planning into your shop, buy in bulk where you can, and avoid frivolities.
You can get a lot of decent calories on a tight budget, it just requires more effort/discipline.

Do you have any tips on where to get my eggs and sardines? Cheapest place for sardines I found is 35p a tin.

The cheapest eggs I have found are £1 per six, but they tend to sell out at that place so I find myself spending £1.20+ per six. 10p eggs would be fantastic.

[Briks42]

Dastardly,

Do they have Lactose-free milk where you live?

I am lactose intolerant and wouldn't even be able to drink a pint of regular milk, but I buy Lactose-free milk and can do my GOMAD with no problem.

[bugbomb]

Hey Dastardly,

I agree with BruteForce. You're not eating enough animals to become one.

We've all definitely heard the "1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight" line before. However, recovery problems are the cue to increase that.

I forget who said this, but at your level of adaptation and strength, it's going to be true that there's no such thing as overtraining, just undereating.

I do understand that protein, especially meat, can be expensive. Maybe look into cheap protein powders? It's not hard to get another 80-100 grams of protein if you just sneak a scoop in to various dishes or drinks throughout the day.

[ZKP]

Das

It seems you get the idea that everyone is trying to relate. The only idea I'll add that might help is to really really get into a regiment with your diet. I mean as strict with your eating as your training. Put 30-50 grams of protein in your stomach every three hours, come hook or crook. Tuna is great for this. you can carry it around with you, whatever just put lots of protein food in you like clockwork. Also remember one day is one day. You'll need to eat a high protein vol for weeks and weeks at a time to get results. If you cant on one day, so sad, but start again tomorrow and do it. If you cant drink milk you cant drink milk, but their are other ways (albeit not as convenient) to get what you need. 30-50 grams once you wake up and every 3 hours or so. One word. Whey. Good luck.

[Rorschach]

Dastardly - ASDA sells eggs at 9.6p each, a little more for free range. 9 tins of tuna for £6, 3 tins of sardines for £1, etc etc. All available online.
Aldi and Lidl are even cheaper, though don't deliver.
If you go to local butchers and buy a months worth, they should give you 10-15% off.

Whey isn't a substitute for food, but is useful to help top up protein. I use
http://www.bulksupplementsdirect.co.uk/khxc/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=catshow&ref=Bulk_Whey_Protein&sid=97jv5v4i4l75w0kpr25d998m34a0r2v1

[Dastardly]

.

[PVC]

.

[mstrofbass]

I'd be surprised if that's not just a bit more than 100 grams of protein.

[BigJavs]

mcdonalds and cheap protein powder ftw

[tweakxc03]

Recently I have been avoiding any exercise other than my barbell training. This is both in the hope of helping recovery and for not unnecessarily burning precious calories.

This differs quite greatly since before this winter, when I was doing a lot of cycling and a lot of general active messing around with skateboarding, basketball etc..

For the past 3-4 months I have however been doing NOTHING but the barbell training sessions. I have also ramped up my eating to as much as I can financially and volumetrically manage.

I was just wondering if this is the best course of action? It hasnt actually helped my progress much. When I was doing a lot more and eating less I was progressing faster but it may just have been due to being more of a beginner. But I am finding endurance harder definitely, in terms of higher heartrates kept for longer and the feeling of higher alertness/more energy.

I also have more persistent aches & pains now than when being a lot more active.

What have your experiences been?

Does regular participation in other sports/activity actually work better than doing nothing else?
All I know is that in my experience with running, the best way to recover from a really hard workout is go to out and put in some easy miles to flush all the crap out of your legs. Sitting around and just resting didn't really do anything but make me more stiff/sore for longer. I think there has been a lot said regarding the benefits of "active rest"... whether it's using the foam roller or triggerpoint work, doing some VERY light cardio just to get the blood moving, doing a long stretching session, etc.

But, it may be different for strength training vs. conditioning. That and runners are generally insane.

Either way, you noted a decline in endurance and cardio... that is obviously to be expected if you have done ZERO cardio for 3-4 months, plus put on a lot of weight (both fat and muscle). The added weight is going to exacerbate the endurance/cardio problem because it's just more bulk you have to carry around....

but again, conditioning isn't the goal of the program.

If aches and pains are the problem, do some active rest on the off days. you can do a lot for recovery just by stretching and foam rolling to get that myofacial release... even getting out and walking for 20 minutes would do a lot i think without hurting your gains.

[Albert987]

I have been writing this down in my log recently.

yesterdays eating: Non training day.

you've gotta be kidding? you are eating TWO eggs for breakfast and you think that's a lot?

as i'm typing this, im eating 8 whole large eggs cooked with 2tbsp of butter and a mountain of shredded cheese. i'm also eating a bunch of almonds to get my fiber.

[Chewie_jrc]

That is nowhere near enough food. Not even close. There's your recovery issue right there. I see 175-200 grams of protien there maybe. You need to double or triple that amount at least and then you'll start recovering.

+1

You said you were progressing earlier but perhaps you haven't been upping the food proportionally with your new found gains/?

[Chewie_jrc]

Dont know about that. The guys who do best on these boards seem to incorporate a good amount of conditioning work in addition to strength training. They're quite fit. Not doing conditioning work might help you get 70sbig (ha), and i'm sure it leads to longer rest periods between sets (10 minutes bro for heavy presses), but i'm not sure that's such a great thing.

First of all, troll harder...you seem to have lost your touch.

Second of all, the rest periods don't get longer because you're getting all winded (you would know this if you lifted). It takes several minutes (7+ min) because you're just drained....CNS fatigue, whatever the fuck it is. It aint cuz you can't breathe. This occurs because you are getting closer and closer to your potential, especially since you near the end of your linear progression.

And for the millionth time...it depends on your goals and level of training experience/adaptation (novice, intermediate, etc.). Couple scenarios and key points(again):


Need conditioning for work (mil/LEO/athlete/etc) then throw it in. There are several programs that are good for this, pick your poison.
You like that kinda shit and want a "healthy cardiovascular system". Knock yourself out. The SS forum members will not be deployed to your 24 hrs fitness and hit you in the head with a barbell.
You're an intermediate. Congrats, you've exhausted your novice gains and have laid an excellent foundation for fitness. Pick a sport and go nuts.
You're a novice and do NOT need conditioning or feel super compelled to walk on a treadmill. In this case, any additional work will hamper your already taxed system (especially at the end of linear progression). When I was in the middle of linear progression I could afford to fuck up my eating, party pretty hard, fuck all night and miss some sleep and it wasn't a big deal. Now I need my 9 hours, my full gomad, and a ton of coffee or I feel like a dog's dick before my workout.
I'm getting sick of these threads.

EDIT: Are the guys that are super fit that way because they had awesome conditioning which allowed them to get stronger? Or did they get fucking strong which gives them a larger total capacity for conditioning? Guys like Ryan Dell Whitney come to mind. The guy is pretty fucking strong and can still tear up the APFT and conditioning-type workouts. He's not "hyoooge" but aint a fucking little stick either, check out his log.

[Dastardly]

you've gotta be kidding? you are eating TWO eggs for breakfast and you think that's a lot?



I do not think the eggs are a lot, and I know most of you lot are eating 5 minimum. But they are too expensive for me to eat that many.

I do have cheese and some greens with my eggs too.

I eat a lot of peanut butter and other things to make up missing protein & calories.

[confuzzl3don3]

And for the millionth time...it depends on your goals and level of training experience/adaptation (novice, intermediate, etc.). .

Agreed. For me, i had to drop cardio to actually make progress and i never looked back since. But i guess my goals may be different to some lifters here. I love to lift and get stronger, and i will try my best to be 100% rested for it, and have time for it, but i still go out and play sports with my friends. Just yesterday i ended up playing around 3 hrs of basketball and ended up jarring my pinky. I know that this might interefere with my training, but i guess i don't want lifting to be my be all and end all. (don't beat to me a pulp for saying this)

[The Laughing Man]

Time heals all wounds... wait actually that's bullshit.

Rest on the other hand, that's good shit!

[crc]

Assuming you're not already, you might want to get into the habit of keeping track of grocery store sales(if you have a fridge and space of your own). I cut my food bills by at least 50% when I started making an effort at scanning the weekly ads. Typically one of the several nearby stores would be be selling at least one of the protein essentials for a good price one week, then another store would have something comparable the next week, and so on. Buy dry goods in bulk - even if you're in an apartment you should have room for 20 pound bags of rice and beans. When you buy cheese for pizza are you buying pre-shredded or blocks? You have to scrutinize every purchase you make and actively look for a cheaper but equally nutritious alternative.

I've been poor and it sucks, but there are ways to manage your diet effectively in that situation. The trick is to work hard at bargain hunting while also balancing on that edge between thrift and miserliness(which is a really miserable state of being).

On a side note about rest I get the impression that you spend way too much time on the internet, get yourself worked into a state of anxiety about all these potential issues you've read about in addition to feeling like you have to contribute to every topic you see, and all that nervous stress is what's really crippling your recuperative ability. I'm not saying this to just give you shit.