Question: weight to use for 1x5 vs 3x5

[tamiki]

My Olympic lifting coach has changed one day of my 3x5 sets across for back squat to one set of 5 reps only.

My question is how much weight should I use for the 1x5 day? Last back squat session I did 235 lbs for sets across.

Thanks!

[gzt]

Well... what's his reasoning? It's different if he changed the program to give you a break by decreasing volume than if he changed the program to give you a day where you go for a 5RM.

[tamiki]

He tweaked my whole program to reduce volume. So I need to go heavy on the 1x5 day and then do 85% of that weight on the 3x5 day. And then heavy on the front squat day for 3x3.

[ColoWayno]

Why doesn't your coach help you?

[tamiki]

Why doesn't your coach help you?

gee, thanks. because i haven't thought of that. i work out tomorrow BEFORE i get to see him.

it's a simple question really (especially after gzt asked for more info). if you know the answer, i would appreciate your input. otherwise, i think we should spend our time actually being productive.

[Notorious]

Just start conservatively with something you know you can hit and increase from there. Maybe 10lbs more than your 3x5

[ColoWayno]

gee, thanks. because i haven't thought of that. i work out tomorrow BEFORE i get to see him.

it's a simple question really (especially after gzt asked for more info). if you know the answer, i would appreciate your input. otherwise, i think we should spend our time actually being productive.

That was a legit question, and now I know the answer. Point is, you have a coach, it should be easier to get his intent from him than from someone on a forum. You are lucky to have a coach.
Have you ever done a 1RM test? It's a good basis for figuring things like this out.
There are charts you can use to approximate things like this if you know your 1RM. They are very generalized and in the end you are probably going to just have to make an educated guess. Some of that is covered in PP in the Level of Effort chart, but you have to do some backward figuring sometimes to get to the info you need based on percentages of 1RM or 5RM. I don't have the material in front of me now but I learned how to do the figuring when I have to. And, as I said, it's an educated guess and no more. In the end, try to pick a weight you will be successful with.
I keep a 1RM chart and a % chart when I'm at the gym. That way I don't have to think as hard.
If you really want more information on how I do it I'd be glad to help. I'd like to see what others do as well.

[tamiki]

Point is, you have a coach, it should be easier to get his intent from him than from someone on a forum. You are lucky to have a coach.

okay, thanks. no hard feelings. i am lucky, my coach is a USAW Senior International coach. the intent is simply to reduce the volume.

Have never done 1RM. I will try 250 lbs for 1x5 and then 85% or 212.5 for sets across 3x5 the next work out, and built up from there.

[Tom Campitelli]

My Olympic lifting coach has changed one day of my 3x5 sets across for back squat to one set of 5 reps only.

My question is how much weight should I use for the 1x5 day? Last back squat session I did 235 lbs for sets across.

Thanks!

I think this is further evidence of Olympic coaches not properly emphasizing strength development. We don't know how tall or heavy you are, but for most folks, 235 lbs for sets across is not the point at which you need to do anything besides add 5 lbs to the bar and do a 3x5 again next session. Whatever we think, however, isn't terribly relevant. Trying to listen to more than one coach is not a recipe for success.

[tescott]

If he wants you to do 3x5 @85% of 1x5, then could you go for 1x5 @115% (~1/85%) of your current 3x5? Reasonable?

[tamiki]

If he wants you to do 3x5 @85% of 1x5, then could you go for 1x5 @115% (~1/85%) of your current 3x5? Reasonable?

Yeah, I thought about that. But that would make is 270-275 lbs for 1x5. I guess I'll have to figure it out at the gym.


I think this is further evidence of Olympic coaches not properly emphasizing strength development. We don't know how tall or heavy you are, but for most folks, 235 lbs for sets across is not the point at which you need to do anything besides add 5 lbs to the bar and do a 3x5 again next session. Whatever we think, however, isn't terribly relevant. Trying to listen to more than one coach is not a recipe for success.

Clearly, you are indirectly criticizing a person you don't know. Maybe my coach is a guy who coaches while sitting in a chair eating potato chips all day. Or maybe, just maybe, it's possible that he is a person that is respected wherever he goes, has been recommended by Charles Staley (who has a forum on this board), who has been coaching for 30+ years, who has power cleaned twice what you can clean (provided you can even clean 200 lbs), and who used to have a 550+ lbs squat all weighing under 185 lbs.

No, I think he just eats potato chips all day while watching you tube clips of Dmitry Klokov.

Who the fuck asked for your opinion?

We don't know how tall or heavy you are

YOU didn't ask. You don't know my height or weight. You don't know my nutrition situation. You don't know how often I train my strength lifts. You don't know how often I Olympic lift. You don't know my body fat%age.

You don't know jack shit about my habits or situation and YOU didn't ask. Yet you deem it fit to think that a one size fits all cookie cutter approach is optimal.

Jerkface, I am 5' 5" and 239 lbs. I eat 2,200 calories a day. How the fuck do you expect me to back squat 3 times a week for sets across 3x5 and add 5 pounds to the bar every workout?

Whatever we think, however, isn't terribly relevant.

No one was asked for their opinion on my program. My question was very clear, and the fact that my Olympic coach changed my program is irrelevant to this particular question.

[hatmanii]

Overreact much?

[jayknow05]

I think this is further evidence of Olympic coaches not properly emphasizing strength development. We don't know how tall or heavy you are, but for most folks, 235 lbs for sets across is not the point at which you need to do anything besides add 5 lbs to the bar and do a 3x5 again next session. Whatever we think, however, isn't terribly relevant. Trying to listen to more than one coach is not a recipe for success.

That's my thoughts, if you're an average male you are well below a weight where you need to worry much more than recovery and form. I guess he could be adding some volume in with olympic lifts at some other point in the week.

[Tom Campitelli]

My, that certainly went well.


Jerkface

I think this was my favorite part of your post. I would suggest that you breathe deeply, reread my original post, and ask yourself if your response was in any way warranted given what I wrote.

[Tom Campitelli]

Just in case tamiki edits his earlier reply, I think that it deserves to be preserved for the sake of posterity and context.




Originally Posted by tescott
If he wants you to do 3x5 @85% of 1x5, then could you go for 1x5 @115% (~1/85%) of your current 3x5? Reasonable?

Yeah, I thought about that. But that would make is 270-275 lbs for 1x5. I guess I'll have to figure it out at the gym.


Originally Posted by TomC
I think this is further evidence of Olympic coaches not properly emphasizing strength development. We don't know how tall or heavy you are, but for most folks, 235 lbs for sets across is not the point at which you need to do anything besides add 5 lbs to the bar and do a 3x5 again next session. Whatever we think, however, isn't terribly relevant. Trying to listen to more than one coach is not a recipe for success.


Clearly, you are indirectly criticizing a person you don't know. Maybe my coach is a guy who coaches while sitting in a chair eating potato chips all day. Or maybe, just maybe, it's possible that he is a person that is respected wherever he goes, has been recommended by Charles Staley (who has a forum on this board), who has been coaching for 30+ years, who has power cleaned twice what you can clean (provided you can even clean 200 lbs), and who used to have a 550+ lbs squat all weighing under 185 lbs.

No, I think he just eats potato chips all day while watching you tube clips of Dmitry Klokov.

Who the fuck asked for your opinion?

We don't know how tall or heavy you are

YOU didn't ask. You don't know my height or weight. You don't know my nutrition situation. You don't know how often I train my strength lifts. You don't know how often I Olympic lift. You don't know my body fat%age.

You don't know jack shit about my habits or situation and YOU didn't ask. Yet you deem it fit to think that a one size fits all cookie cutter approach is optimal.

Jerkface, I am 5' 5" and 239 lbs. I eat 2,200 calories a day. How the fuck do you expect me to back squat 3 times a week for sets across 3x5 and add 5 pounds to the bar every workout?

Whatever we think, however, isn't terribly relevant.

No one was asked for their opinion on my program. My question was very clear, and the fact that my Olympic coach changed my program is irrelevant to this particular question.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"Jerkface, I am 5' 5" and 239 lbs. I eat 2,200 calories a day. How the fuck do you expect me to back squat 3 times a week for sets across 3x5 and add 5 pounds to the bar every workout?"

Maybe because everybody else here did that to get stronger? I did that up to 355 lbs high bar atg. I worked with a kid that went up to over 200 lbs and weight less than you and is taller (then quit because he got a girl friend, fucker). Lascek went to 475 that way.

Is this another misngh?

And calm the fuck down.

[milesdyson]

"lascek went to 475 that way."

yeah? he was eating a deficit the whole time?

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

He wasn't, but he can out whatever our bitchy little friend. Justin is a bit of a freak, but 3 sets of 5 of +bw squats is not what I would call taxing or the limit for linear progression.

[Mr.City]

I know this is getting off topic, but why are you eating so little?

[Sami]

I know this is getting off topic, but why are you eating so little?

Probably because he's 5'5", 240lbs and only squats 235(?). I'm thinking things aren't looking pretty.

[tamiki]

Just in case tamiki edits his earlier reply, I think that it deserves to be preserved for the sake of posterity and context.

1) I'm not going to delete what I posted, I'm not a coward.

2) I asked a question. You made an off-topic remark that was critical of another person's training program without knowing any specifics or even asking. If you look at the second post in this thread, gzt wanted more information in that he felt he needed to better answer the question.


reread my original post, and ask yourself if your response was in any way warranted given what I wrote.

Did you read the thread before you posted? I was looking for an answer to a specific question, not off topic remarks. Even if the answer is, "there is no hard of fast rule so figure it out for yourself.


He wasn't, but he can out whatever our bitchy little friend. Justin is a bit of a freak, but 3 sets of 5 of +bw squats is not what I would call taxing or the limit for linear progression.

Right. Because a person who has 35% body fat, weighs 240 and squats 240 3x5 is squatting the same amount of their genetic potential as a person who is 15% body fat, weighs 240 and squats 240.

Give me a break.

The point is, I asked a simple question. Just because other people are eating boat loads and successfully doing linear progression doesn't mean they have the right to shove linear progression down the throats of others or criticize the training methods of others in an unsolicited manner.

Perhaps you are super polite to the telemarketer who tries to sell you a newspaper subscription during dinner. You're a better man than me.

I'm not responding to this thread anymore. Thanks to anyone who wanted to help. Btw, I did 275 lbs for 1x5 today.

[tamiki]

JerkfaceI think this was my favorite part of your post.

Mine too.

[ColoWayno]

Way to go on the squats.

[tamiki]

Way to go on the squats.

Thanks.

Btw, for all those guys criticizing my overreaction:

When you go to the gym, do you go up to people and start saying, "hey bro, you should do linear progression, 3 sets of 5 across and only lift the big 5?"

Do you really? What makes it any different on this thread?

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"Just because other people are eating boat loads and successfully doing linear progression doesn't mean they have the right to shove linear progression down the throats of others or criticize the training methods of others in an unsolicited manner"

A linear progression does not require boatloads of food. Boat load of food will extend the linear progression, but boat loads of food has never been suggested to someone who is 35% body fat.

"When you go to the gym, do you go up to people are start saying, "hey bro, you should do linear progression, 3 sets of 5 across and only lift the big 5?""

When they ask a question, like you did, then yes I do. You know why? Because it is the most efficient way to get stronger.

Do you often tell people who are trying to help to fuck off or call them jerkface?

[Mr.City]

Tamiki, all we are saying is that you may be ditching linear progression too quickly.

[tamiki]

When they ask a question, like you did, then yes I do. You know why? Because it is the most efficient way to get stronger.

Do you often tell people who are trying to help to fuck off or call them jerkface?

I asked a question about X, and Y was being pushed on me. This is called giving unsolicited advice. I know if someone asks you how to use the cables for bicep curls that you don't start giving them a lecture about SS.

If you search on the 70sbig.com website, you will see a Olympic Lift/"Strength Lifts" routine for NOVICES that only has them squatting twice a week.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

" I know if someone asks you how to use the cables for bicep curls that you don't start giving them a lecture about SS."

If someone asked me that, and they did not look to trained, I would ask how many chin ups they could do. If the answer was less than 15, I would direct them to the nearest pull up bar.

And regardless of whether you squat twice a week or three times, you still increases the weight each time for 3 sets of 5 across. Hence linear progression.

[tamiki]

And regardless of whether you squat twice a week or three times, you still increases the weight each time for 3 sets of 5 across. Hence linear progression.

So since I do 1x5 on Tuesday, 3x5 on Thursday, and front squat for 3x3 on Saturday you are saying that I am not allowed to increase the weight every workout?

Is that what you are saying?

Or do you just want me to back squat 3x5 three times a week?

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"So since I do 1x5 on Tuesday, 3x5 on Thursday, and front squat for 3x3 on Saturday you are saying that I am not allowed to increase the weight every workout?"

is not linear progression, it's weekly progression. You are increasing the weight for different rep schemes, and you come back to the first rep scheme next week.

"Or do you just want me to back squat 3x5 three times a week?"

2-3 times. If you are doing alot of Oly work, especially training the FS for adaptation instead of recovery then I would do 2.

[PVC]

When you go to the gym, do you go up to people and start saying, "hey bro, you should do linear progression, 3 sets of 5 across and only lift the big 5?"

Do you really? What makes it any different on this thread?

This is the Starting Strength website. The Starting Strength program puts novices on linear progression. If you post on this website that you are a novice and are not doing linear progression, you will get shit on. Duh.


So since I do 1x5 on Tuesday, 3x5 on Thursday, and front squat for 3x3 on Saturday you are saying that I am not allowed to increase the weight every workout?

Is that what you are saying?

As Jamie said, this is weekly progression, not linear progression. Weekly progression is programming for intermediate lifters - i.e., lifters that can't add weight to their squat every time they come into the gym.

We're not saying you can or can't do something. You can do whatever the fuck you want. All we're saying is that, as a novice, it would be most efficient for you to do 3x5 for all of your squats and to increase the weight every time you squat. That's all.

[Mr.City]

I'm surprised that your coach is working with you on the rep scheme but not the weight involved.

[Ryan Long]

Tamiki,

Don't discount the benefits of getting stronger at the expense of technique work. I set a new snatch PR after 6 weeks of squats, deadlifts, and bench press without training the o-lifts for several weeks. I felt like I was at about a 90% solution on my SNA/C&J technique but had plateaued for about a year. I went back to the strength basics and I suddenly hit a SNA PR. For comparison I squat 405 for 5. The take away is that I am no where near my genetic potential (5'4", 185lbs), so strength work still matters. I wasn't doing enough strength work on my o-lifting routine. This is one of Rip's complaints with USAW and so far in my experience a legitimate one. Sounds like a few people were just trying to point that out.

[tamiki]

I just got home, and I haven't read the replies.

All I want to say is that I admit I got a little crazy this morning. I'm sorry.

[tamiki]

I'm surprised that your coach is working with you on the rep scheme but not the weight involved.

This has been addressed. I never bothered to ask him what weight to use for the 1x5 day. He just said do 85% of that for the 3x5 day.

He tweaked my whole program to reduce volume. So I need to go heavy on the 1x5 day and then do 85% of that weight on the 3x5 day. And then heavy on the front squat day for 3x3.


Why doesn't your coach help you?

It's irrelevant now since I did 275 for 5 today.


This is the Starting Strength website. The Starting Strength program puts novices on linear progression. If you post on this website that you are a novice and are not doing linear progression, you will get shit on. Duh.

Point taken. Will I get shit for high bar squatting, too?


Don't discount the benefits of getting stronger at the expense of technique work.

I don't.

Good night everyone.

[gzt]

don't let the bastards get you down. Honestly, the best thing you can do is find a quality coach and work hard at whatever he tells you. Good job for hitting 275x5. So he doesn't have you doing SS and instead has you on a program that's more like the Texas Method. Okay, it's a little slower, but lighten up, all you other douchefags. Save the aggro for people who aren't working hard and making progress, like msingh.

[Ryan Long]

Good on you for the public apology. Harder to do than a ME in my opinion.