Dips in Starr routine

[Flying Fox]

I was reading an article by Bill Starr called "Banish the bench", wich outlined a routine for incline, dips and OH press. Something just caught my eye:


If this is a new routine for you, do each of the exercises once a week. The incline fits best on the heavy day, the dips on the light day and the overhead work on the medium day. That adheres to the principle, since you’ll use the most weight on the inclines, the least on the dips and something in between on the overhead exercises. Keep in mind that light in this case does not mean easy. You’ll push the numbers up every time you dip. The same goes for the overhead presses. Lean on the top-end lifts ad try to improve them weekly.
This doesn't seem right. I can easily pump out reps doing bodyweight dips, even back when I just started training. A bodyweight incline press, let alone an overhead press, however, requires the limits of my strength.

I would think dips are a better choice as a heavy day exercise.

Did I miss something? Am I the only one able to dip more than press? Or are dips somehow less stressfull?

[skills101]

Perhaps he means the least amount of added weight?

[Flying Fox]

Perhaps he means the least amount of added weight?
Perhaps, but that still wouldn't make sense, you're still lifting bodyweight.

[hatmanii]

Perhaps, but that still wouldn't make sense, you're still lifting bodyweight.

Which makes sense, it just doesn't work that way.

There are a myriad of factors involved but the weight used is all relative to the specific movement you are talking about. You even already said it yourself that dips are very easy for you, and thus would make sense on the light day, where as Inclines are hard (heavy), and presses are harder yet (medium).

It almost works backwards if we want to use your way of reasoning (which makes sense, just is incorrect). The inclines will use the most weight, involve the most muscles and will thus be harder to recover from. The presses will use less weight yet more than the dips, more muscles than dips yet less than inclines, and will be hard to recover from but easier than dips and harder than inclines. Dips follow this same logic as using the least muscles, and being the easiest to recover from.

It really all is relative and can change depending on a trainees strength/weaknesses, but Bill Starr knows his shit. I hope I've helped and not made the water any murkier.

-Hat

[Flying Fox]

Which makes sense, it just doesn't work that way.

There are a myriad of factors involved but the weight used is all relative to the specific movement you are talking about. You even already said it yourself that dips are very easy for you, and thus would make sense on the light day, where as Inclines are hard (heavy), and presses are harder yet (medium). What you are saying now is:

dips, easy => light day
incline, harder => heavy day
OH, hardest => medium day

If you put dips on light day because they are easy, then OH presses should come on heavy day, because they are the hardest. This is the opposite of how heavy/medium/light is defined. The heavy day should have the highest workload and intensity. An easier exercise simply means more weight can be used, meaning higher workload and intensity.


It almost works backwards if we want to use your way of reasoning (which makes sense, just is incorrect). The inclines will use the most weight, involve the most muscles and will thus be harder to recover from. The presses will use less weight yet more than the dips, more muscles than dips yet less than inclines, and will be hard to recover from but easier than dips and harder than inclines. Dips follow this same logic as using the least muscles, and being the easiest to recover from.

It really all is relative and can change depending on a trainees strength/weaknesses, but Bill Starr knows his shit. I hope I've helped and not made the water any murkier.

-HatThis post doesn't really clarify anything. On the contrary.

Perhaps an example would make thing clear. Let's assume a 3 day a week program, doing a set of 5 for each pressing exercise:

Monday: dips 5xBW+30kg (BW=70 => 5x100kg)
Wednesday: Incline 5x80kg
Friday: Press 5x60kg

In this example, dips use the most weight, next are inclines, and then presses. This also mean dips are easier, inclines are harder and presses are hardest. Based on the workload and intensity, monday would be a heavy day, wednesday a medium day and friday a light day.

I know that the weight that can be handled in a specific exercise differs from person to person. But I cannot imagine anyone being able to OH press more than he is able to dip. Am I wrong here?

Even though I know Bill Starr knows hes shit, I would like to understand myself.

By the way, it doesn't really matter a lot wich is light and wich is heavy, because it doesn't matter where the light day falls.

[Thomas Padron-McCarthy]

Perhaps we can compare dips to the squat? When squatting, you're also moving (parts of) your bodyweight, but nobody counts that, or even thinks of it, and the "heaviness" of the squat is always just the bar and plates.

(Disclaimer: I can't do a single bodyweight dip yet, so they certainly feel heavy for me. And I'm probably not qualified to say anything.)

[hatmanii]

I shall make it simple then.

Assuming each lift is loaded to the same relative intensity:

Inclines/Bench - hardest to recover from.

Press - hard to recover from, but not as hard as Inclines/Bench

Dips - Easiest to recover from.

Each lift listed above engages the same muscles (upper body, core is irrelevant in our comparisons), however their respective roles in each lift is lessened as we go down the list so that the most muscle activation occurs in Inclines with the least activation occurring in dips with presses falling somewhere in between.

Is that more clear?

-Hat

[Flying Fox]

Perhaps we can compare dips to the squat? When squatting, you're also moving (parts of) your bodyweight, but nobody counts that, or even thinks of it, and the "heaviness" of the squat is always just the bar and plates.

(Disclaimer: I can't do a single bodyweight dip yet, so they certainly feel heavy for me. And I'm probably not qualified to say anything.)I have considered that. 2 remarks on that:
1) a bodyweight squat is far easier than a bodyweight dip.
2) when comparing heavy/light/medium days, you will always be comparing between squats, so the bodyweight doesn't really matter.


I shall make it simple then.

Assuming each lift is loaded to the same relative intensity:

Inclines/Bench - hardest to recover from.

Press - hard to recover from, but not as hard as Inclines/Bench

Dips - Easiest to recover from.

Each lift listed above engages the same muscles (upper body, core is irrelevant in our comparisons), however their respective roles in each lift is lessened as we go down the list so that the most muscle activation occurs in Inclines with the least activation occurring in dips with presses falling somewhere in between.

Is that more clear?

-HatVery clear.
However, it simply repeats the statement made in the article, and the problem remains.
Why?
Why are dips easier to recover from?
Why is there less muscle activation in dips?

[hatmanii]

Very clear.
However, it simply repeats the statement made in the article, and the problem remains.
Why?
Why are dips easier to recover from?
Why is there less muscle activation in dips?

Because.
Because the triceps are the major mover and recover quickly.
Because the triceps are the major mover with more or less everything else being used for stabilization.

If you want actual science on the matter you will have to go and research that yourself.

BTW - Do you have a link to the article in question or is this out of one of Starr's books?

-Hat

[Flying Fox]

Because.
Because the triceps are the major mover and recover quickly.
Because the triceps are the major mover with more or less everything else being used for stabilization.
How about the shoulders and chest? They're not just for stabilization, they actively flex the shoulders.


BTW - Do you have a link to the article in question or is this out of one of Starr's books?

-Hat
I have the article in text format on my computer, don't remember where I got it.

[hatmanii]

How about the shoulders and chest? They're not just for stabilization, they actively flex the shoulders.

The shoulders are worked to a greater extent than the pecs but not more than the triceps. The chest even less. I never said they weren't used.



I have the article in text format on my computer, don't remember where I got it.I found the article after a quick Google search.

-Hat

[Flying Fox]

But they still are not the primary mover. I never said they weren't used, on the contrary I stated that all three exercises make use of the same muscles just on different levels.

I know what you mean, but I'm doubting the role of the triceps as "primary mover".
What you are saying is that dips use primarily triceps, while chest and shoulders are used to a lesser extend. Correct?
In the same way one might say chest and shoulders are the primary movers in an incline bench, and triceps to a lesser extend.
But if that is the case, then why can dips be done with more weight?

I am aware that dips have a smaller ROM, so that could explain it. However, why would smaller ROM mean less stressfull or less hard to recover from.

In one of hes articles, Starr bases the chose of the exercise on intensity, workload and 'severity'. About 'severity':

Since the intensity and workload of the shrug are much higher than those of the deadlift, our lifter is tempted to make shrugs his heavy day exercise, but he quickly realizes that it’s the wrong move. This is a case where the severity of the exercises is the deciding factor. Deadlifts are much more demanding than shrugs, so even though the workload and top-end weights are lower, they belong on the heavy day.

Now considering dips VS inclines:
-higher weight => higher intensity
-higher workload
-severity? Can't really say dips are far less demanding than inclines. On the contrary, I always find closed chain exercises to be more demanding.

[hatmanii]

Are you asking questions out of general curiosity or just asking them to spur discussion?

It seems like you are asking questions about things that have already been explained by a very astute, experienced, knowledgeable and respected strength coach. I'm not saying that it is wrong to question things, but I fear that I will just be reiterating what has already been said.

-Hat

[Flying Fox]

Are you asking questions out of general curiosity or just asking them to spur discussion?Mainly curiosity. I think it's important to understand why you do a certain program, no matter how great the maker is.


It seems like you are asking questions about things that have already been explained by a very astute, experienced, knowledgeable and respected strength coach. I know, but I don't understand the reasoning. Starr's explanation about light days and exercise choices is clear to me, exept for the dips. The only reasoning behind the choice of dips on light day is the use of lighter weight, with wich I disagree. Perhaps my understanding of the entire heavy/light/medium philisophy is incorrect.

I appreciate your feedback. I hope to here other peoples view about this as well.

[PVC]

You're overthinking this way, WAY too much. Why can I do a whole bunch of dips, but I can't bench press my bodyweight? Because dips are easier. I don't know the exact reason WHY dips are easier, they just are. It certainly has to do with the body's biomechanics and muscular structure. If you care so much, go look it up.

[Flying Fox]

You're overthinking this way, WAY too much. Why can I do a whole bunch of dips, but I can't bench press my bodyweight? Because dips are easier. I don't know the exact reason WHY dips are easier, they just are. It certainly has to do with the body's biomechanics and muscular structure. If you care so much, go look it up.
Read the OP again, I'm not interested in the reason why dips are easier.

[Dastardly]

I think the confusion here stems from the fact that Starr probably expects a trainee to be very strong, especially on overhead lifts. Probably much more so than you are.

That is the impression I got when reading articles by him.

[Flying Fox]

I think the confusion here stems from the fact that Starr probably expects a trainee to be very strong, especially on overhead lifts. Probably much more so than you are.

That is the impression I got when reading articles by him.A good point. I have considered that.
In his article, he writes Marvin Eder did 500lbs dips and had a 510lbs bench press. That means he probably was able to dip more than he could bench, or at least more than he could OH/incline. He also considered Eder to be a great dipper, so it is possible he assumes the average trainee dips a lot less.

But still, I can't imagine anyone OH pressing more than dipping...

[hatmanii]

A good point. I have considered that.
In his article, he writes Marvin Eder did 500lbs dips and had a 510lbs bench press. That means he probably was able to dip more than he could bench, or at least more than he could OH/incline. He also considered Eder to be a great dipper, so it is possible he assumes the average trainee dips a lot less.

But still, I can't imagine anyone OH pressing more than dipping...

Really? Starr comes from an era where the go-to lift for upper body strength was Pressing. Presses were akin to bench presses today. Everyone did them.

-Hat

[Flying Fox]

In that case, this might really explain everything.

[hatmanii]

Did you get the answer you wanted from Rip, Fox?

-Hat

[Flying Fox]

Did you get the answer you wanted from Rip, Fox?

-HatThis answer is that this is based on his experience.
So is this the answer I wanted ... I guess maybe not. But it is the answer none the less.