How to program/progress while losing weight?

[confuzzl3don3]

I'm sure a lot of you have had periods where they lost weight either to get into a weight class for a competition sport or lifting, or for aesthetic purposes, or for health purposes, etc. How do you guys program your lifting during these periods as you would need to be on a caloric deficit leading to poorer recovery. Do you still try to make gains?

I've tried to maintain some sort of linear progression while on my temporary 'cutting' to drop some fat but i've found that in the first month or so, i managed to continue on SS albeit with slightly less gains although my gains had already slowed considerably prior to going on this cut. But now i find that especially the last workout of the week (friday) i am most affected by recovery issues, making it difficult to hit all the prescribed reps. For example today for squats at my planned 121kg i only got 1/4/4 which i felt was my inability to hold my back angle (legs felt they could push it fine). And my bench has grinded to a halt at 74kg. Past 2 workouts was 4/3/0, 4/4/3 and today 4/4/4. What should i be doing, considering i may need to drop calories even more as i have not been losing weight this past wk and a bit?

[ColoWayno]

I think the standard advice is to keep the intensity up but decrease volume.

It's frustrating though. I went with 5-3-1 just to maintain weight and lifts. In less than 2 cycles I had dropped off significantly on my squat. Granted, I lost a little bit of weight when I got sick but I've put that back on gradually.
I think I'm slowly starting to build the squat back up, I'm also going to add a second squat session every week. You'll have to find that balance for yourself. In my minuscule experience the squat drops off fast when you lower the volume and that's compounded when you are restricting calories (or sick).

Good luck.

[confuzzl3don3]

Thanks for the advice. So you still try to progress in your lifts rather than shooting for maintaining it. Also other than the squat how about your other lifts. Were they similarly affected?

[ColoWayno]

At some point making strength gains while cutting will be next to impossible, you probably know that.
For me, squats were affected the most. My volume on dead lifts didn't really change that much since I was only DL'ing once a week anyway. I think I've maintained ok on those. Presses didn't seem affected nearly as much, just a slight drop off. I think I'm making slow gains on presses again.

[Grbrs]

Hi Confuzzl3d

I know your on Linear progression and may not want to leave that just yet, but here is what i'm doing, it follows the Starresque Heavy/Medium/Light template. For the squat i am hitting 3 heavy singles on heavy day, 2 sets of 5 on medium at about 90% of the weight used for the singles, on light days i use about 80% of the Heavy day weight for 3x5. Sorry, i know that this sounds confusing! i Deadlift and clean once a week and fit the pressing in in a similar manner but maybe a max set of 5 on heavy day instead of singles.

So yeah basically as colowayno said, keep the intensity high and drop some volume

[confuzzl3don3]

Colo, yeah i get what you mean.

Grbrs i can see that you're describing a more intermediate style of programming which had been suggested to me when i brought up my plans of cutting in the recovery section a while back. And i'll think about doing that.

Just another additional question, if i have stalled on my bench should i deload like on normal LP? Because i understand as both of you have pointed out that intensity should remain high, but i have no idea how to continue progressing on my bench then and i believe i am nowhere near finishing LP on it regardless of whether im on a calorie deficit.

[MortalWombat]

I think the standard advice is to keep the intensity up but decrease volume.
This is what I did during my "biggest loser" contest at work. I decreased the number of strength workout days per week to two (then to one during the last couple of weeks), and decreased the reps to 3 reps per set. I did this by trial and error though, because my previous 3 day per week workouts with sets of 5 were just too hard to recover from. My only goal was to stave off muscle loss as much as possible while losing weight. I wasn't even thinking about gaining strength.

[Grbrs]

Yeah my bench really is the first thing to suffer for me, i'd maybe deload it maybe to 65-70kg and try and work up again using 5 reps maybe drop the number of sets, when you can only get 3 reps then try and work up in 3's. it may be wise to add a back-off set at this point, nothing crazy, just for some volume. I think the important thing is keeping some sort of high end work.

Just an idea.

[METAL VIPER]

Just to throw my 2 cents in, in my experience with cutting, you will lose strength on a deficit unless you find a miraculous balance where you're able to gain strength and lose weight, which is next to impossible to maintain. However, your strength levels will come back quickly after you come back to a caloric surplus.

Someone else feel free to chime in with their personal experiences, as they might have taken a different route or have some other advice

[confuzzl3don3]

Hmm so noone continued on with their program but rather switched to an entirely different program. I was under the impression that relatively speaking SS itself already had a fairly low volume and high intensity and since i haven't actually done any other program other than SS i decided to just stick with it and reduce the weight increases and only go on a slight calorie deficit (dropping about 0.5kg each week).

And Metal, i was under the impression that it was possible to conserve strength when cutting - not getting down to like 6% BF or whatever that BBers want to get to, but just a modest drop from high teens to low teens. Not quite sure about that though.

[milesdyson]

it is a continuum and viper's post is weird unless i'm reading it wrong. maintaining strength is not somehow impossible when losing weight.

[confuzzl3don3]

Mm, just because i popped over to John's section to see if there were any good posts about this and i stumbled upon something that might be interest.

http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=17437

John says there is no need to reduce volume. Or intensity which we already agree on. Possibly no need to reduce volume because we are not doing a program with high volume already?

[TrackJunkie]

That advice was given to a man with 27% bodyfat. If you're hovering around 20%, you're looking at a completely different dieting animal.

[confuzzl3don3]

Hmm, so do you have any advice for a probably mid teens now to drop to the low teens?

[PVC]

Hmm, so do you have any advice for a probably mid teens now to drop to the low teens?

My advice is to ask John Sheaffer.

[TrackJunkie]

I think the standard advice is keep protein relatively high and drop calories low. This "standard advice" is supposed to take you to 12-15%, and then to get below 12-15%, you'll have to do different things.

I take most of my diet advice from Lyle McDonald, despite his reputation around here.

[METAL VIPER]

And Metal, i was under the impression that it was possible to conserve strength when cutting - not getting down to like 6% BF or whatever that BBers want to get to, but just a modest drop from high teens to low teens. Not quite sure about that though.
It's definitely possible, I was saying it's difficult to gain strength while losing fat

[confuzzl3don3]

Yeah i'll see if i can get a reply from John Sheaffer, and might take a look at Lyle's site.

[msingh]

I've tried to do this several times and i've failed every single time but in an interesting way. From my experience I have a few lessons i've used to optimise my next attempt at dropping bodyfat while maintaining strength. I'll only squat twice a week. The first session of the week i'll increase the weight by 1.25kg. The next session i'll squat the same weight as the previous session. That's for squats. I'll only do 2 sets of 5 (ive tried 3x5 but that stalled very quickly), whereas 2x5 is doable.

With presses I could never manage 5 on a deep deficit. So i'll stick to doing 3 sets of 4. Same with the bench, i'll go with 3x4 ish, but with 1.25 kg jumps.

Deadlifts are funny. DL on a deficit is really difficult, as i've observed from watching others try to do it. The good thing about DL is that it comes back quickly when you get off the diet, so i'd stick to small (1.25-2.5 kg jumps) or even just maintaining. So once a week with 1.25 kg jump should maintain DL strength nicely.

More than anything, squats suffer the most on a severe deficit. If you can maintain your squat then you've done well. If it takes squatting the same weight for a few weeks, so be it.

I also want to maintain my conditioning, so i'll have one conditioning workout a week. This will probably be paired with DL. So the program would look something like:

Day1: Squat (+1.25kg), Push (bench/press alternating)
Day2: Squat (+0), Push
Day3: DL, metcon

The main feature of these is they consist of brief intense weights sessions that will maintain and slightly improve strength in the main lifts.

My diet will consist of chicken breast and steamed veges, a glass of milk a day and supplements (fish oil, multivitamin) and some fat loss supps (stimulants). low, almost zero carb, high protein, low almost no fat (except EFA). I hope to do this for at least 3 weeks, and at most 4. I'm looking to drop ~10kg during this period.

Preworkout meal is key. In the past i've had good luck with iced coffee, and also with peanuts.

If i can go from ~105kg to 95kg i'll be happy. From there, i'll change to a diet that allows strength gains while maintaining or slowly lowering bodyweight.

[confuzzl3don3]

Hmm interesting that you say squats suffer the most. Surprisingly so far they are still the only lift i am still progressing in. Despite my failure at friday's squats every week for the past 3 weeks, on monday i would nail that it (so i'm increasing at a rate of 1kg every week - slow i know but i'm just happy to be still progressing on a deficit). Pushing is mixed really. Sometimes i progress, sometimes i don't. Just today i finally broke through my 3 workouts in a row stall at 74kg, but then my deadlift was even worse than last week getting a measly 2 reps at 158kg compared to 3 last week, and boy were these 2 reps ugly.

Damn i'd try to drop more than 0.5kg/wk but i have heard that this causes loss in strength and muscle unless you have a very high BF. Fact or fiction?

[TrackJunkie]

Are you planning on doing a carb load before your conditioning work?

[cervicornis]

confuzz, I've been at the diet for 4 months now, body weight has dropped from 205 to 175 and all lifts are down a bit, but not by much. Now that I'm closing in on 10% BF, I am finding that it's getting more difficult to maintain my strength from week to week.

I know he has lots of real world experience with this but I don't agree with Sheaffer's recommendations. I'm not saying his methods won't work, but I think there's smarter ways to lose fat and his recs aren't going to work for everyone, and might not be the most efficient way to go about it.

If you're below 15% BF and your lifts are in PR territory, I just don't see how a genetically average person would be able to build strength while losing fat. It is difficult just to maintain, at that point. Lower volume with as much intensity as you can handle works best for me. Lots of protein. Read through all the stuff on Lyle's site, he might be a whiny little bitch but there is a ton of good info there.

[confuzzl3don3]

I hear you cervi. I'm not even sure what bodyfat i am anymore. Don't have calipers or anything. Do you know a semi-accurate way to roughly estimate? Are any of those online calculators good? Although i feel that its not your bf that matters but how you look. No point having 6% BF if you look like a twig.

[cervicornis]

Online calculators often yield inaccurate numbers if you've got a decent amount of LBM. I own these inexpensive plastic calipers: http://www.accumeasurefitness.com/

It won't be exact but you'll get an idea where you stand.

[confuzzl3don3]

Mmm wonder if any of you guys could just chime in and guess about roughly what BF% i am now. Please feel free to laugh at my very crappy photo-taking skills and posing.

[confuzzl3don3]

Only let me attach 5. So heres lucky number 6.

PS. forgot to say that i'm 75kg (165lbs) and 173cm (5'8"). Thanks guys

[cervicornis]

It's far more likely that you'll get laughed at for posting pics of yourself flexing. Very brave.

[misspelledgeoff]

15%

nice undies.

[confuzzl3don3]

It's far more likely that you'll get laughed at for posting pics of yourself flexing. Very brave.

Haha yeah. But admist the laughing i'd hoped for some good estimates =)


15%

nice undies.

Thanks for the estimate and the compliment ;)

[hatmanii]

Epic undies are epic.

I think you look skinny.

-Hat

[Ian Kovtunovich]

Mmm wonder if any of you guys could just chime in and guess about roughly what BF% i am now. Please feel free to laugh at my very crappy photo-taking skills and posing.

You're fired.

[confuzzl3don3]

Epic undies are epic.

I think you look skinny.

-Hat

Thanks for another undies compliment :D

And i wouldn't say i'm skinny. Definitely got a donut around my waist there =P


You're fired.

Haha don't worry i don't intend on pursuing photography or professional bodybuilding as a future career.
__________________________________________________ ___________


So I think i may need to make some adjustments to my programming to drop some more fat off. All my lifts (with the exception of my favourite lift the deadlift, and powercleans, have still been progressing despite going up really slowly (0.5kg increases for press and bench, and 1kg per squat session so 2kg in total/wk since i have a light day on wednesday). However there has been quite haphazard sets for example 5/5/4s, 5/4/1s, 4/4/0s, etc. Sadly my deadlift seems to be regressing (past 3 deadlift workouts was 158kg for 3, then 2 reps the next time, and yesterday failed to even pull 150 off the floor so i dropped 10% and did 143kg for 5.) I know a few of you guys posted up earlier about changing the amount of sets/reps such as a 2x5 thing, or still 3 sets but less reps, while others talked about moving to an intermediate program. I'm seriously considering doing this now that i think my progress is starting to go to the shits so which would you guys feel is the best choice for me and how i need to tweak my program.

PS. basically my current program is:

Monday
Squats - 3x5
Bench/Overhead press - 3x5
Powercleans - 5x3
Chinups 3x5 (weighted) alternating with 3x failure

Wednesday
Squats - 3x5 (80% of monday's weight)
Bench/Overhead press - 3x5
Deadlifts - 1x5

Friday
Squats - 3x5
Bench/Overhead press - 3x5
Pullups - 3x5 (weighted)
Dips - 3x failure (which is not very much since i introduced this maybe 3 weeks ago)

To get a rough idea of my stats:
Squats - 123kg
Bench - 74kg
Press - 51kg
Deadlift - 155.5kg (was highest complete set)
Powercleans - dropped down to 55kg

[MrMarbles]

If you dont mind me asking, how are your elbows going?

[kittenSmash]

165 and you want to weigh less? I just don't know what to say. I know you would look a hell of alot better with 20 more lbs of muscle.

[confuzzl3don3]

If you dont mind me asking, how are your elbows going?

Gone. Think it was my squat form. After focusing on making sure my elbows were up and not intercepting the weight the pain was ironed out in under a week. No pain since.


165 and you want to weigh less? I just don't know what to say. I know you would look a hell of alot better with 20 more lbs of muscle.

Yeah i know that too. If only i could just click my fingers and put 20lbs on...and i don't want to weigh less. I couldn't give a rat's ass what i weigh, but rather i want to shave off some of that fat. I originally started because of hectic uni timetable and exams so eating wise was pretty crap so i decided to try and take the opportunity to cut down that doughnut around my waist. Don't want to give up now halfway through so i'd prefer to get down to 10-12%. I know I should have probably just STFU with making myself excuses and forced myself to find time to eat, but i was a pussy and i didn't. End point = is there some way to program it so i can complete this losing fat business in the most efficient and strength preserving way possible.

[LimieJosh]

Yeah i know that too. If only i could just click my fingers and put 20lbs on...and i don't want to weigh less. I couldn't give a rat's ass what i weigh, but rather i want to shave off some of that fat. I originally started because of hectic uni timetable and exams so eating wise was pretty crap so i decided to try and take the opportunity to cut down that doughnut around my waist.

I understand the lure of maintaining a decent body comp. My personal requirement to do so has limited my gains in the weight room over the years, but I'm ok with that because I'm honest with myself about the trade offs (I'll trade random women giving me their card after smearing ice into my ab grooves and liking it off vs an extra 100lbs on the squat when I live in a climate that allows me to go shirtless for ten months of the year). With due respect, there is something about your post that makes me wonder if you're not being so honest with yourself or us.

Losing fat while progressing on your core lifts is a much harder thing to do than doing either one without concern for the other. Getting strong is physically and mentally demanding, but outside of that 1-2 hours a time in the gym you are afforded a massive amount of flexibility with respect to how to get your protein and calories. Someone who is crunched for time can make great strength progress by befriending the local McDonalds. That is an option is does not really exist for someone with your stated goals. Simply put, the outside of the gym component of a plan geared towards your stated goals is generally more time consuming from a planning and implementation PoV. So when you say you made this change in emphasis because of increased time constraints I smell something is a little off...if someone (or myself) faces a period with increased time constraints my advice is always to simply concentrate on weight/strength gain until life calms down.

If this is simply a difference of opinion, and through your experience or others' testimony you think such combined goals are easier to achieve on a tight schedule than simply getting bigger/stronger or losing fat alone, then fair enough...conversation over. If this is simply a matter of not being aware of the different sort of challenge brought about by meeting your stated goals then there are many well known resources (including sections of this forum) for you to get a more realistic grasp of what needs to be done, which might help you reevaluate and clarify your goal with respect to the limitations imposed by your current life situation. My concern, however, is that this stems from an inability to clearly prioritize and be honest about your real goals. I see this all the time with novice lifters...a desire to both shred the midsection and get a 300lb bench press chest when starting at 165lbs with a 34 inch waist. They end up half arsing "getting big" recommendations and compromising that by randomly following "cutting" protocols. It's a commitment to neither that ends up leaving the trainee in no mans land with respect to both goals.

[confuzzl3don3]

I agree with you there Limie. Although i had believed that eating less would be considerably easier and less time consuming than eating more. But yes i have my goals straight now which is to try and continue to drop more body fat while hopefully gaining or even maintaining my strength. What program modifications should i make?

[Eanderson]

Dude, you are 15-17% tops. You don't need to lose weight. If you insist on slowing the weight gain, just eat at maintenance (high protein) for a month and see if you recomp. But seriously, gain 20-30 lbs, then see where you are fat-wise.

[hatmanii]

I went back and looked at your pictures again.

You aren't big and you aren't fat. Therefore you are skinny. You need to gain some weight, son.

-Hat

PS - I understand wanting to be 'thin' but you honestly look fine as it is, and some tighter dietary modifications and hard training will take care of the rest. It really doesn't need to be a priority.

[confuzzl3don3]

Dude, you are 15-17% tops. You don't need to lose weight. If you insist on slowing the weight gain, just eat at maintenance (high protein) for a month and see if you recomp. But seriously, gain 20-30 lbs, then see where you are fat-wise.

I did eat at maintenance for about a month back when i had hit 79-80kg. Didn't gain weight but continued to increase in strength. As far as the 'recomping' went, i looked no different. Hence the caloric deficit after that trial.


I went back and looked at your pictures again.

You aren't big and you aren't fat. Therefore you are skinny. You need to gain some weight, son.

-Hat

PS - I understand wanting to be 'thin' but you honestly look fine as it is, and some tighter dietary modifications and hard training will take care of the rest. It really doesn't need to be a priority.

I know i'm not big, however i do feel i'm pretty fat. Not obese, but can afford to drop some lbs of fat. I just don't want to give up on my goal that easily when i'm more than halfway there, and I understand that my strength gains will definitely be compromised. I hope you and others can understand this and help me to devise a more effective program for me to achieve this short term goal, seeing as my current shedule isn't holding up.

My past workouts have ended up like this:

Squats - 121kg (5/5/4) 122.5kg (4/5/3) 123kg (5/4/1) 123kg (3/3/-)
Bench - 74kg (5/5/5) 75kg (4/4-) 75kg (5/5/5)
Press - 50.5kg (5/5/4) 51kg (5/5/4) 51.5kg (5/5/4)
Deadlift - 155.5kg (5) 158kg (3) 158kg (2) 143kg (5 - failed to even get 150 off the floor so i dropped off 10%)
Powercleans - 61.5kg (5/3/3) 55kg (5/5) 55kg (3/3/3/3/3)

I believe that my upper body lifts can still progress some sort with linear progression on this caloric deficit, but my lower body lifts have started to go to the dumps. As mentioned earlier in this thread about moving on to some sort of intermediate programming or merely lowering volume, I am unsure which to follow. I have no knowledge about 5-3-1, and in terms of texas method, i was thinking if the 5x5 volume on monday would be even harder for me to achieve on a caloric deficit. I plan on keeping the bench and overhead press, and hopefully the power clean as well, still on linear progression.

[rdp]

I know i'm not big, however i do feel i'm pretty fat.
Body-Image Distortion a Growing Problem (http://www.healthyplace.com/eating-disorders/main/body-image-distortion-a-growing-problem-among-women-and-men/menu-id-58/)

[LimieJosh]

The point people aretrying to make toyou is that at your low weight what fat you have is going to protude. Add 10-15lbs of muscle and the reasonable amount of fat you have will look negligible, therefore all youneed to do is to do the standard SS program with a lean gainer nutritional program. Given the emphasis of this community people under 200lbs looking to lose fat tend not to get much sympathy, but in this case I agree 100% with the recommendations.

Until you accept this and emotionally commit to it you will "fail".

[Aslin]

Boys i've been thinking about this for a while, I'm really into the zone of cutting a bit of fat, I've been doing the Texas method for the last month or so, gained 10lbs on the squat, a little on everything else. Went from 27%bf down to about 21-22ish.

I just think the Texas method is really screwing me up with that volume day. Sure I could eat more, but it's too difficult to tell if it's going to end up as fat. I'd rather do a program with less volume and maybe progress slower.

You guys know the madcow 5x5 right? really thinking of giving that a go.

[LimieJosh]

I just think the Texas method is really screwing me up with that volume day. Sure I could eat more, but it's too difficult to tell if it's going to end up as fat. I'd rather do a program with less volume and maybe progress slower.

I've been doing TM for about 3 weeks, but I started a little conservatively so this past monday was the first that was really challenging. In saying that, it didnt feel too bad to complete at the time, but I have been wrecked ever since. My cardio on Tue was simply a 15 minute leg loosener prior to some foam rolling. I have never appreciated the benefit of a light wednesday as much as I did this week, but even that lower volume and lighter weight workout felt very difficult. Hell, even the cardio yesterday was not much better than Tuesday's. I'm interested to see what this monday does to me.