Starting Over

[Gary Gibson]

After running myself into the ground I'm finally starting over with an honest to god intermediate linear progression. But where do I start? When?

My knees were feeling very tender from all the volume and frequency I'd been doing, but after a couple weeks off, things seem to be healing up very nicely. I'm able to jump full force again tonight for the first time in many weeks! But now my squatting and pulling strength is way down.

I was considering myself to be on the injured list, but now I'm feeling very whole, if a little on the weak and detrained side. I was planning to spend a couple weeks pretending to be a novice and quickly running through novice progression starting at 185x5x3, but that's seeming a little on the light side right now, way too conservative.

Plus I got that 7/11 meet coming up. It's for me to put up a PR bench and not play hero on the squat or DL. I've only squatted once in the last three weeks and that was a lackluster 315 two weeks ago. I feel I could benefit from jumping back into squatting now and treating the meet as almost just a part of my progression.

Initially I was going to just squat something like 100 kilos at the meet and then start novice progression with 185 a couple weeks later. But is that overly conservative? How about getting to work sets up to 315 right now, getting back in the squat groove so I can squat 364-405 without too much effort on meet day and then going from there. I just don't know if another three weeks away from heavy squats would really help me.

[Dastardly]

It seems like you already know what to do.

[Tom Campitelli]

How about getting to work sets up to 315 right now, getting back in the squat groove so I can squat 364-405 without too much effort on meet day and then going from there.

If it is going to fuck your knees up to squat that heavy right now, then don't. Unless you are getting paid well to be at that meet, you should probably think longer term. Your ideas on a very conservative linear progression sound about right. You are or were draining fluid out of you knee and while the rest of you can squat heavier, your knee may or may not agree.

[simonsky]

why are you even asking us? no one knows you more than you. and you know more than most of us including me who just chips in at threads just for the sake of chipping in.

just gauge your knee and work back up...slowly. TM or SS you know what to do.

[Gary Gibson]

why are you even asking us? no one knows you more than you. and you know more than most of us including me who just chips in at threads just for the sake of chipping in.

just gauge your knee and work back up...slowly. TM or SS you know what to do.

For the same reasons I blog. I like to think publicly; for posterity; and because I'm starved for human contact but like to keep my distance.

I just trained squats for the first time in three weeks. Got a mighty 255 x5 x3, over 100 lbs less than my best sets of five from earlier this year and they were pretty bloody hard. I did a set of conventional deadlifts with 415x5 afterward and they were a max set, but overall not that bad. That 415x5 was just 30 lbs off my best conventional set of five from a few weeks back.

My knees feel fine and I was able to do pretty good vertical leaping between sets (I use my ability to jump as a gauge of knee health, along with pistols). The plan is to make 20-lb jumps so I'm using 315 x5 x3 on Friday. Then I'll just roll into the meet and take do something like 160-170-175 for my attempts. Also going to pull conventional this time because sumo just isn't feeling that hot lately. Heh. My first time pulling conventional in competition. Hoping to get close to my recent gym max, which was awfully close to my sumo meet max.

[gzt]

Oh c'mon, you can probably at least break 400 in the squat.

[simonsky]

For the same reasons I blog. I like to think publicly; for posterity; and because I'm starved for human contact but like to keep my distance.



well duh, hehe.

just keep it slow, maybe 20lb jumps are too big but i dont know.

soon you'll be back to being MONEY.

[Gary Gibson]

Heh heh.

Sadly, my knees feel pretty fuckin' far from okay right now. It's been a long while since they had to work this hard and I just hope I didn't make things too hard for them too soon. Right now, I can't jump again and squatting down is murder.

[grizzlybuck]

Gary, I've checked in on various threads you've started, and contributed to, and always enjoyed your intelligence and humor. Though when it comes to weightlifting I am a neophyte, I am not a neophyte in life (I might be an idiot though :rolleyes:) and it seems to me that you don't use your intelligence when it comes to your weight lifting. To quote Rip (though not originally about you) "you are one hardheaded motherfucker" you talk about ruining yourself with your Russian or Romanian or whatever volume/intensity/insanity programs that you've stacked on end, then smartly take a couple of weeks off, with the intention of starting back slow, then jump right back in with both feet by not following through with those slow, gradual intentions.

I recognize these things in you, because unfortunately I have some of the same traits (I think that the vast majority of men have them, though some, through restraint and common sense prevail against them) As others have said, you know what to do, you know how your body is feeling, you just have to be man enough to think long term and not think you're being a pussy to take it slow and easy for a while.

Good luck man, I hope your knees come around, give them a while to readjust to the weight though.

[thersites]

Hey Gary,

Have you considered a cycle of modified Starr/Stone protocol? For instance, light-heavy-light, or medium-medium-light, or even light-medium-light intensity, then slowly swap for a bit higher intensity as the knees recover. That would allow you to slowly ramp back up to higher intensity work, with a lot of active recovery.

So, maybe something like light-medium-light (or medium-light-light) for a few weeks, then heavy-light-light for several more, and then medium-heavy-light.

Would that be more effective at encouraging recovery and getting you back to higher intensity work without injury more quickly than just dropping the weight drastically and doing a short linear progression? I'm not sure, but I would think a mixture of really light active recovery mixed with a bit of higher (but not necessarily high) intensity would better preserve gains and stimulate recovery than doing the same intensity work on a linear progression. On the other hand, I would be the type to push the intensity too hard too fast, so maybe a planned linear progression period would better enforce discipline on me to not do so. It will be interesting to see what you end up doing and why.

Good luck. No matter what, it has got to seem a bit discouraging to go back to weights we mere mortals are struggling with.

Dave

[TrackJunkie]

Gary, have you considered taking a break from squatting heavy to focus on oly lift variants?

[Gary Gibson]

Gary, I've checked in on various threads you've started, and contributed to, and always enjoyed your intelligence and humor. Though when it comes to weightlifting I am a neophyte, I am not a neophyte in life (I might be an idiot though :rolleyes:) and it seems to me that you don't use your intelligence when it comes to your weight lifting. To quote Rip (though not originally about you) "you are one hardheaded motherfucker" you talk about ruining yourself with your Russian or Romanian or whatever volume/intensity/insanity programs that you've stacked on end, then smartly take a couple of weeks off, with the intention of starting back slow, then jump right back in with both feet by not following through with those slow, gradual intentions.

I recognize these things in you, because unfortunately I have some of the same traits (I think that the vast majority of men have them, though some, through restraint and common sense prevail against them) As others have said, you know what to do, you know how your body is feeling, you just have to be man enough to think long term and not think you're being a pussy to take it slow and easy for a while.

Good luck man, I hope your knees come around, give them a while to readjust to the weight though.

Thanks for that, GB.


Hey Gary,

Have you considered a cycle of modified Starr/Stone protocol? For instance, light-heavy-light, or medium-medium-light, or even light-medium-light intensity, then slowly swap for a bit higher intensity as the knees recover. That would allow you to slowly ramp back up to higher intensity work, with a lot of active recovery.

So, maybe something like light-medium-light (or medium-light-light) for a few weeks, then heavy-light-light for several more, and then medium-heavy-light.

Would that be more effective at encouraging recovery and getting you back to higher intensity work without injury more quickly than just dropping the weight drastically and doing a short linear progression? I'm not sure, but I would think a mixture of really light active recovery mixed with a bit of higher (but not necessarily high) intensity would better preserve gains and stimulate recovery than doing the same intensity work on a linear progression. On the other hand, I would be the type to push the intensity too hard too fast, so maybe a planned linear progression period would better enforce discipline on me to not do so. It will be interesting to see what you end up doing and why.

Good luck. No matter what, it has got to seem a bit discouraging to go back to weights we mere mortals are struggling with.

Dave

Yeah, I really need to cycle, period. I know I'm supposed to, but I always get greedy and stack hard cycles on top of each other with only token rests. It's no surprise that after a few months of this, my knees hurt, I'm slow, can't jump and get weaker.

Linear periodization from a very modest start (like, the bar!) will be next. I'm also going to be putting in deload days every week where I just work on moving a lighter weight very quickly. This isn't so much to develop speed as it is to keep it from decaying.


Gary, have you considered taking a break from squatting heavy to focus on oly lift variants?

Yes, I have. I'll think about it more over the next few weeks.

[Gary Gibson]

Now I feel fine.

I've been doing (painful) quadriceps stretches all day and my knees are feeling better. It's like they were "bound" somehow and this was contributing to dysfunction. Also, I think I was just plain tired mostly from that max set of five on the deadlift. Today I feel loose and I can jump just fine. I think part of my problem yesterday was just plain old DOMS. So now I'm second guessing my idea about resting for another few weeks (except for the token squat attempt in the meet next Sunday) and starting over really light. Right now that 255x5x3 doesn't seem to have caused any harm outside of a little soreness (first real session in nearly a month) that's now dissipated. My knees aren't tired at all and in fact are feeling just about the best they have in months. The effusion isn't even a problem today!

I may head into the gym tonight to try to continue the accelerated novice progression with 275x5x3.

Sorry for all the flip flopping on this issue. I'm taking it day by day and just responding to what my body tells me. The debilitation I was feeling seems to be simple reintroduction to a movement pattern coupled with a max effort pull. I'll know for sure how 275x5x3 affects me the day after tomorrow when I try to jump and do my quad stretches.

[blowdpanis]

Now I feel fine.

I've been doing (painful) quadriceps stretches all day and my knees are feeling better. It's like they were "bound" somehow and this was contributing to dysfunction. Also, I think I was just plain tired mostly from that max set of five on the deadlift. Today I feel loose and I can jump just fine. I think part of my problem yesterday was just plain old DOMS. So now I'm second guessing my idea about resting for another few weeks (except for the token squat attempt in the meet next Sunday) and starting over really light. Right now that 255x5x3 doesn't seem to have caused any harm outside of a little soreness (first real session in nearly a month) that's now dissipated. My knees aren't tired at all and in fact are feeling just about the best they have in months. The effusion isn't even a problem today!

I may head into the gym tonight to try to continue the accelerated novice progression with 275x5x3.

Sorry for all the flip flopping on this issue. I'm taking it day by day and just responding to what my body tells me. The debilitation I was feeling seems to be simple reintroduction to a movement pattern coupled with a max effort pull. I'll know for sure how 275x5x3 affects me the day after tomorrow when I try to jump and do my quad stretches.

I think the quad stretching is huge, particularly the lower leg against the wall stretch I've posted here in the past. I notice the trend, too, that when I squat frequently, my quads get tighter and tighter to the point that I develop knee pain. Gotta stretch that shit out, some foam rolling and/or soft tissue stuff with some frequency to the area also being a good idea.

[simonsky]

^ can you or someone else repost that quad stretch?

[blowdpanis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBg6-5Tsli4

[Gary Gibson]

Dark, curly hair. Thick glasses. A little nerdy and in pretty good shape. That yoga woman is right up my alley.

Mike, I just stand on one leg and pull the my heel to touch my glute with the opposite leg.

[blowdpanis]

Dark, curly hair. Thick glasses. A little nerdy and in pretty good shape. That yoga woman is right up my alley.

Mike, I just stand on one leg and pull the my heel to touch my glute with the opposite leg.

Do this one, trying not to over-arch your back (i.e. brace your abs). If you don't feel like crying, you're not doing it right 8D

[tertius]

You can do this without the wall, as well, just by grabbing your foot behind your back, while kneeling in the same basic position. That adds a bit of shoulder stretch but is probably harder on the knee that is against the floor.

I can attest to the fact that this is intense, done either way. I alternately want to cry, or break into literally uncontrollable laughter, which is fucking weird, but that's life for you.

[scoppi]

Dark, curly hair. Thick glasses. A little nerdy and in pretty good shape. That yoga woman is right up my alley.

Those hairy armpits up your alley as well?

[Gary Gibson]

Those hairy armpits up your alley as well?

There was a time that those would have been more of a problem. Not saying it's not a problem now.

[scoppi]

There was a time that those would have been more of a problem. Not saying it's not a problem now.

ha, yeah, she is a cute one. but if the pits are like that, im not sure i want to know what kind of bushwhacking would be required down under ....

i guess thats why theres a back door

[tertius]

i guess thats why theres a back door

Experience has informed me that the backyard sometimes might require a little mowing (or chemical defoliant) every once and again, as well.
If it's an issue.

[crackerjack]

^ can you or someone else repost that quad stretch?


This isn't what you were asking for but rolling of the sort in the video below is really helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJLxruO3su0

I use a big piece of PVC pipe and a softball. It's painful sometimes but it really helps.