Benching more than I squat/DL. Need advice beffor starting SS.

[Matt W]

Hey everyone. I'm going to start the SS routine in a few days but I have some questions before I do. I've read the SS FAQ but I have not yet read the book. I will be getting the book shortly but for now I'm still kind of a newb.

For a few years I was one of those typical teenagers who wanted to have a ripped upper body and didn't really care about legs at all. I went to the gym off and on and slowly made progress with my upper body. Then late last year, I decided to finally start training seriously and incorporating squats and deadlifts into my routine because my legs started to look tiny compared to my upper body. I was going to start doing SS about 6 months ago, but around the same time, I started taking accutane for acne. The accutane gave me severe back and knee pain, preventing me from doing squats, deadlifts, power cleans, and most leg exercises. So for the past 6 months I've continued to make progress with only my upper body(and calves). I'm going to start Rippetoe's SS next week starting with these numbers:

bench: 210 X 3 X 5
squat: 155 X 3 X 5
deadlift: 175 X 1 X 5
press: 125 X 3 X 5
PC: no idea X 5 X 3

I will be starting off squats, deadlifts, and power cleans extra light to get the form down perfectly. I have a few questions before I start though because I'm obviously not a complete novice when it comes to weightlifting, which is what the program is designed for.

1) I expect to stall much much quicker on bench press and press than on the other 3 lifts. What should I do once I stall on bench press and press? I would like to stay on SS until I stall on all the exercises, but will I be wasting my time with bench press and press alone after stalling? Should I start using dumbbells? Should I start doing incline bench?

2) If I'm only doing these 5 exercises, won't my muscle groups that aren't getting any direct work (biceps, calves) get weaker? Should I add calve raises and chin-ups into the program? I know this isn't a concern for a complete novice, but I'm not sure if it will be for me.

Oh and here are my stats:

age: 20
height: 5'10''
weight: 182 lbs
bf: 16%
endomorph

Any help would be appreciated.

[rockyshaun]

Use Microloading on the bench and eventually on the press. Start out with 10 pound jumps on the squats, deads and PC's and then eventually 5. When you stall on the bench and OH just deload 10% and don't worry about it. I am thinking that you will be surprised that you will get stronger on those two lifts.

My OPINION is that you should stick to the five exercises and leave the other stuff out for now, untill you become and advanced novice or intermediate. I grew 1" on my arms without direct arm work.

Let us know how it goes.

[Mr.City]

If you load the lifts accordingly, the squat and deadlift should out pace the bench

[gzt]

You'll catch up quickly with the squat and deadlift. You may have to go intermediate on the bench before the others. Start off with 2.5# jumps on the bench.

Don't worry about stuff not getting direct work, you fool. Okay, you can do pullups and chinups, that's allowed. But never ever do calf raises or we will never give you advice ever again. Or at least I won't. I'm serious about that.

[gzt]

Also, drop the word "endomorph" from your vocabulary.

[gzt]

And don't post estimated bodyfat percentages ever again.

[Carlos Daniel]

I think most of your questions will, or at least should, be answered when you read the book.

[Jason B]

Start the bench and press much lighter than you would think. This will do two things:

1) Take less away from squatting and pulling allowing you to push those lifts harder, which is what you need to do

2) Delay's the "stall" you are so worried about


Don't worry about your biceps and calves, it doesn't matter for you right now, a few years of inconsistent lifting for your chest and biceps does not move you past the novice stage, sorry to burst your bubble. If it's really going to freak you out that much you can add chin-ups after your three main lifts for the day.

When you say you're "getting" the book shortly, does that mean you've ordered it and are waiting for it to arrive?

[Matt W]

Okay I will probably just add some chin-ups to the end of workout B.

My 5RM for bench is 225 and for press is 140. Should I be starting at a lower weight for those exercises?

I ordered the book yesterday from amazon so yes it is on its way.

[Dastardly]

Okay I will probably just add some chin-ups to the end of workout B.
.

Id be careful even with the chins, they may leave your lats a little fatigued. Progression on the deadlift & squat should be your priority. Just try it out plain & simple.

The book suggests no powercleans either. Just deadlifts everytime till you get accustomed.

[Dastardly]

My 5RM for bench is 225 and for press is 140. Should I be starting at a lower weight for those exercises?


Yes, because as a novice you are expected to progress every session and as an intermediate you are expected to progress every week. You will certainly have difficulty with this using lofty 5RM's.

Best to keep it much lower than you think to see if you can milk any more simple progression, you may be surprised as squats & deadlifts will help you add bodyweight and recruit full body strength, it may indeed push your bench along a bit more.

After a while on SS you will be able to see if your bench is too advanced to progress with such simple programming. At that point you may consider some intermediate ideas like Texas method for your bench.

[rockyshaun]

Okay I will probably just add some chin-ups to the end of workout B.

My 5RM for bench is 225 and for press is 140. Should I be starting at a lower weight for those exercises?

I ordered the book yesterday from amazon so yes it is on its way.

Maybe 10% to give yourself a chance to progress, unless you think you will progress now at those weights.

[gzt]

Id be careful even with the chins, they may leave your lats a little fatigued. Progression on the deadlift & squat should be your priority. Just try it out plain & simple.

The book suggests no powercleans either. Just deadlifts everytime till you get accustomed.
What book are you reading, Dastardly? Not the same book as the rest of us if you think it suggests deadlifts every time at first.

[Carlos Daniel]

What book are you reading, Dastardly? Not the same book as the rest of us if you think it suggests deadlifts every time at first.

Rip does suggest deadlifting every workout for a couple of weeks before introducing power cleans, but it's in PP not SS if I recall correctly.

[gzt]

Must be a revised recommendation in the new edition, which I do regret not having.

[Matt W]

Okay I will just stick to the 4 exercises and then add power cleans in a couple of weeks. Thanks for the advice everyone. I started the program today, just doing squats/bench/DL, and it was pretty easy. I'm sure that will change quickly though.

[FatButWeak]

Welcome to the best program to increase your bench. Seriously. Also, please read the book carefully and thoroughly. Twice. A lot of your silly questions will be answered.

Like you, I had a very big bench from years of focusing on it. When I started SS my squats were at less than 135, while my bench was at about 185 (down from a former max of 245 due to not training for several years). As others have noted, I was able to add ten pounds per workout to my squat for quite a long time. It did not take long for my squat and deadlift to surpass my bench.

Squatting, cleaning, deadlifting and pressing WILL help your bench go up. Benching 3 X 5 was a totally new experience for me. My previous benching experience was extremely undisciplined, with sets and reps and flyes and cable crossover machione work and and inclines and dumbell presses of all different weights and rep schemes all over the place. Settling into a groove with 3X5 will yield improvements on the bench. Therefore, I experienced a lot of bench improvement on SS and believe you will too. Be prepared, however, to improve in only 5 pound incremeents fairly quickly. Nevertheless, you should be able to continue a novice progression for a very long time on your bench.

Finally, eat lots of meat. Lots. Of meat.

[Matt W]

So far my progress has been pretty good. I read SS and it was very helpful. I ordered PP now too. This is where I'm at right now.

bw: 188 lbs
squat: 250x5x3
bench: 225x5x3 (tried 230 but got 5,5,4 twice so I'm deloading)
press: 135x5x3 (got 140 5,5,4 today so I"ll try again Monday)
dl: 275x5
pc: 95x3x5 (did these for the first time today)

I added bodyweight chins on Monday, weighted incline situps on Wednesday, and bodyweight pull-ups on Friday and it doesn't seem to be hurting my progress so far. I don't think I will be able to make much more progress on my bench on a novice program but we'll see.

[BCS]

What size jumps are you making on your bench press now?

[gzt]

You should do 2.5# jumps on your press and bench.

[Matt W]

I have been doing 5 pound increases every time because the smallest weights my gym has is 2.5 pounds. I'm thinking I could possibly put an extra spring clip on the each end of the barbell, because I think they weigh about 1 pound.

[willhu12]

But never ever do calf raises or we will never give you advice ever again. Or at least I won't. I'm serious about that.

Why no calf raises? Sorry to hijack the thread, but I'm curious.

[MazdaMatt]

For the same reason you don't need to do lateral raises and reverse wrist curls.

[willhu12]

For the same reason you don't need to do lateral raises and reverse wrist curls.

anyone care to explain such reason to me instead of adding more examples which only tell me more exercises I shouldnt do?

[MazdaMatt]

Since you're quite new, I'll help you out...

You don't need to polish the car when it is sitting in pieces on the floor.
You don't need to paint the drywall when the house isn't studded yet.
You don't use a micrometer to measure miles.

Basically, until you're extremely strong and reaching your genetic potential, all those silly little exercises are just a waste of time. You don't do calf raises because you can use that time and energy to do powercleans. You don't do curls because you can use that time and energy for chinups. Lat raises are trumped by overhead press. You don't do wrist curls because they're ghey.

[willhu12]

Since you're quite new, I'll help you out...

You don't need to polish the car when it is sitting in pieces on the floor.
You don't need to paint the drywall when the house isn't studded yet.
You don't use a micrometer to measure miles.

Basically, until you're extremely strong and reaching your genetic potential, all those silly little exercises are just a waste of time. You don't do calf raises because you can use that time and energy to do powercleans. You don't do curls because you can use that time and energy for chinups. Lat raises are trumped by overhead press. You don't do wrist curls because they're ghey.

Errrrm, I know it's not worth asking at this point in training (started about a year ago), but if I want to get some wrist work in - would the crush grippers be a good choice (when my deadlift grip starts to falter)?

[MazdaMatt]

(when my deadlift grip starts to falter)?

I'm glad that you added in that little bit :)

How much are you deadlifting now? Personally, I just deadlifted 305 (double my starting point, but fucking weak compared to many on this board) with double-overhand grip. I am a computer programmer with life-long weak hands. Deadlifting has done an amazing job of helping my grip. I'm sure I'll continue to 315-320 with double-overhand before I need to switch to either alternate or hook grip. I haven't even considered special grip training like Crush grippers, but I have made a point of adding a few pounds to the bar after deadlifts and doing a few static holds.

[FatButWeak]

Willhu: just do the fucking program and stop mucking about with it. The best reason to not do calves, forearms, lateral raises, portugese titty-twisters and other shit is because they ARE NOT PART OF THE PROGRAM!

Look, everybody who follows the program faithfully gets great results and is happy they did it. Everybody who fucks around with the program - no matter how little - shits the bed. Don't mess with the program = great results. Its that simple.

ALSO, I was looking over my earliest training logs today and noted that the weight I started squatting 3X5 with was IDENTICAL to the weight I started pressing 3X5. (I used the SS method to determine which weights to start with; i.e. titrate the weight upwards until it gets hard to do - then use that weight for 3X5). This poundage was....wait for it....105 pounds!

When I stopped my linear gains my squat had risen to 335 for 3X5 and my press was only at 190. for 3X5. Obviosuly, the pace of my squat improvement was much greater than my press improvement. This is typical.

[willhu12]

Willhu: just do the fucking program and stop mucking about with it. The best reason to not do calves, forearms, lateral raises, portugese titty-twisters and other shit is because they ARE NOT PART OF THE PROGRAM!



I'm doing the "fucking program" but Im getting to that point (like every other fucking person) when my lifts aren't progressing that fast, I don't give a crap about lateral raises and there is nothing wrong with asking WHY.

I'm asking about grip, because out of all the shit you mentioned, IT HAS THE MOST IMPORTANT CARRYOVER TO THE DEADLIFT AND CLEAN.

Read my comment again:
When my deadlift grip starts to go, would it be OK to use the Crush Gripper thingys (not the shitty plastic ones either)?

[willhu12]

I'm glad that you added in that little bit :)

How much are you deadlifting now? Personally, I just deadlifted 305 (double my starting point, but fucking weak compared to many on this board) with double-overhand grip. I am a computer programmer with life-long weak hands. Deadlifting has done an amazing job of helping my grip. I'm sure I'll continue to 315-320 with double-overhand before I need to switch to either alternate or hook grip. I haven't even considered special grip training like Crush grippers, but I have made a point of adding a few pounds to the bar after deadlifts and doing a few static holds.

I do my lifts in KGs, 130kg. Providing my mathematics is correct, that puts it at about 285/6lbs with a double overhand grip for 5 reps (100% RAW, not even a proper suit or weightlifting shoes). Thats at a BW of about... 210lbs (I've lost some fat over the last month and a bit).

[DanO_123]

I'm doing the "fucking program" but Im getting to that point (like every other fucking person) when my lifts aren't progressing that fast, I don't give a crap about lateral raises and there is nothing wrong with asking WHY.

I'm asking about grip, because out of all the shit you mentioned, IT HAS THE MOST IMPORTANT CARRYOVER TO THE DEADLIFT AND CLEAN.

Read my comment again:
When my deadlift grip starts to go, would it be OK to use the Crush Gripper thingys (not the shitty plastic ones either)?


I bought the COC grippers out of curiosity.


It'll make your hands hurt and probably interfere with the deads. I would hold off. I work mine in just randomly but I've never had grip problems to start with. Get some good chalk and that'll be the best grip help you will need.

Apparently closing the number 2 is tough for the average person so the SS program will improve your grip quite a bit!

[MazdaMatt]

Get some good chalk and that'll be the best grip help you will need.


Get some good chalk and that'll be the best grip help you will need.


Get some good chalk and that'll be the best grip help you will need.


Get some good chalk and that'll be the best grip help you will need.

Get my point?

[willhu12]

Get my point?

yes, I'm Autistic, not dumb. There is a difference.

I never said my grip had packed up yet. I said when it does...

[Mr.City]

Well, Willhu, if chalk and mixed grip are not helping, it might time to examine a few things. For instance, if you have short fingers, grip will be a problem. If your hands are normal-sized, it might be time for assistance exercises, like Kroc Rows, static holds, fat bar/fat gripz stuff, and etc. However, it sounds like you have nothing to worry about right now.

[MEbigUsmall]

Since you're quite new, I'll help you out...

You don't need to polish the car when it is sitting in pieces on the floor.
You don't need to paint the drywall when the house isn't studded yet.
You don't use a micrometer to measure miles.

Basically, until you're extremely strong and reaching your genetic potential, all those silly little exercises are just a waste of time. You don't do calf raises because you can use that time and energy to do powercleans. You don't do curls because you can use that time and energy for chinups. Lat raises are trumped by overhead press. You don't do wrist curls because they're ghey.

A chef wouldn't be worrying about garnish on plate that didn't have any food on it yet. Just thought I would add my own example.

[MazdaMatt]

Thanks, I don't think the point was clear till you added that in.

[MEbigUsmall]

Lol Don't be jealous because my explanation was better. I know nothing else unfortunately.

[Mulgere Hircum]

The best reason to not do calves, forearms, lateral raises, portugese titty-twisters and other shit is because they ARE NOT PART OF THE PROGRAM!


Wait--maybe I don't care so much about the Program after all. Are those an option? Does she have to be Portugese?

My wife may not be nearly so supportive after I finish, er, tweaking the program. :D

[Tom Campitelli]

I'm doing the "fucking program" but Im getting to that point (like every other fucking person) when my lifts aren't progressing that fast, I don't give a crap about lateral raises and there is nothing wrong with asking WHY.

I'm asking about grip, because out of all the shit you mentioned, IT HAS THE MOST IMPORTANT CARRYOVER TO THE DEADLIFT AND CLEAN.

Read my comment again:
When my deadlift grip starts to go, would it be OK to use the Crush Gripper thingys (not the shitty plastic ones either)?

The reason many of the lifts outside of the big five that Rip recommends are of secondary importance, especially for beginners, is because of the following:

They tend not to involve more than one joint
They tend not to involve lots of muscle mass
They tend to use shorter ranges of motion
They can potentially take time away from other, more useful lifts
These points add up to exercises that generate a smaller systemic stress and are generally less useful at increasing strength than the ones outlined in the book.

There are certainly good reasons to add in accessory lifts, but that usually comes after you are squatting 350 pounds. There's nothing wrong or evil about accessory lifts, but they are not worth a lot of time and focus initially, either.

As for grip, it is the weakest part of my deadlift. I work on grip doing farmer's walks with heavy dumbbells. Sometimes, I set up some safety pillars a few inches below the where the finish of my deadlift would be. I load the bar up with something mildly challenging for my grip and I pull the bar up and hold it for as long as I can. I usually do one or two warmups first. I repeat that three or four times. I have come to prefer the hook grip for my deads recently, too.

[MazdaMatt]

tweaking the program. :D

ZiNG!

[MEbigUsmall]

why do they call them Krock rows, that is the way I have always seen rows done with heavy weight. He just does them much heavier.

[Squatson]

Kroc rows are 1 heavy set with high reps...supposed to develop power in the upper back which transfers to the deadlift, also helps with grip strength.

[MEbigUsmall]

when you guys say 2.5 up on the press every week, I assume you mean 2.5 total and no on each side, which would mean I would need to buy small plates from somewhere? any suggestions?

[gzt]

We mean 2.5 total. Pity your gym doesn't have 1.25 plates. Common recommendations are to use multiple collars (weigh them), small lengths of chain (weigh them), or large washers (weigh them), or ankle weights, or baseball bat weights. They don't need to be "exact", so you don't need competition-grade plates, but you want something about that heavy.

[MEbigUsmall]

whats weird is my gym literally has every thing else from chains to a yoke bar to reverse hyper and glute ham raise. Maybe they keep them behind the desk or something, if not I will just buy some off of amazon, they seem to have fractions that go down to 1.25.

[Carlos Daniel]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0036LXB7Y/ref=oss_product

those are the ones I got.

[Jalapen0]

I just bought some chain. It's super cheap. I don't need it yet but I'm prepared. :)