Abs

[stef]

by Mark Rippetoe

Since the basic nature of correct ab function is isometric, the exercises in which the abs perform this function will provide exercises for the abs as well. This may seem childishly apparent, yet virtually every strength coach adds extra concentric/eccentric ab work to the program anyway. The thinking must be that just squatting, deadlifting, pressing, cleaning, snatching, chins, and barbell curls – all of which involve trunk stabilization as a critical performance component – do not provide sufficient ab work by themselves. I disagree.

Abs (http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/abs/)

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[tertius]

Excellent article.
And it gives me a great reason not to do situps, which I hate.

[Gary Gibson]

This needed to be said. Great stuff.

[TomF]

Thanks for this. As ever, a solid, well-reasoned article based on what the body actually does ... instead of how we apparently want it to look.

I find myself wondering about training rotational strength. I realize that it will have zero effect on improving my squat or press, but it might help with my martial arts, where a lot of the power in kicks/punches comes from hip and torso rotation.

I've never liked the notion of using standing twists with a bar across my shoulders ... evil visions of doing something like twisting the head off a screw. But what progressively adding weight while doing Russian Twists - either on a slant board or on the ground? I'd think that the same arguments re increasing running speed via increasing leg strength might apply to increasing rotational speed via increasing rotational strength.

In your view would this help? Or would I have better results by only bothering with continuing to improve my squat/press/DL, and doing sport-specific rotational work with a heavy bag?

[ddziabenko]

What is your opinion on using isometric core exercises from gymnastics (L-sit, Back lever, Front lever, and other such things) as assistance exercises for the core? I am thinking it might of help in the barbell exercises.

I would also be curious about the need for rotational strength for sports which deadlifts and squats do not seem to provide.

[Jon Nosferatu]

I find myself obligated to point out that, with all due respect, there are a number of other, better coaches who disagree with you.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I find myself obligated to point out that, with all due respect, there are a number of other, better coaches who disagree with you.

Duh. What is their reasoning, and how do their arguments compare with mine?


What is your opinion on using isometric core exercises from gymnastics (L-sit, Back lever, Front lever, and other such things) as assistance exercises for the core? I am thinking it might of help in the barbell exercises.

I would also be curious about the need for rotational strength for sports which deadlifts and squats do not seem to provide.

I think that both are quite useful for some athletes, and that both are unnecessary for novices.

[TrackJunkie]

I find myself obligated to point out that, with all due respect, there are a number of other, better coaches who disagree with you.

I'm curious who these "better" coaches are. How are you judging better?

[RobertFontaine]

Interesting read. So if I read this correctly. If you've got a back injury then wiggling your spine can cause pain. and the ability to have a strong spine through a range of motion isn't particularily relevant to squatting or deadlifting.

I would guess however that if you are dodging, weaving and bouncing around all over a field while people who weigh > 200 pounds are trying to crush you that the ability to contract the abs or eccentrically contract them might actually be quite useful.

It might also be useful if you were rolling around on the ground with one of those >200 pound people trying to tear your arm off or choke you unconscious.

Still I don't think spine wiggling is terribly good for squatting. I tried it once and it made it difficult to put my pant on for almost a week.

[Patrick L.]

I find myself obligated to point out that, with all due respect, there are a number of other, better coaches who disagree with you.

So you basically post "liar, liar pants on fire" as a counter argument to this well thought out article? And also sling a little mud by throwing in there "better coaches" then Rip?

I find myself obligated, with all due respect, to inform you that you are a douchebag.

If you are not going to lend anything to the argument, you probably shouldn't be posting...

[rpbrown]

I find myself obligated to point out that, with all due respect, there are a number of other, better coaches who disagree with you.

Let's see some sources; back your words up, little man. Are these coaches working primarily with novices, intermediates, advanced, elite, etc. athletes? Give some context and some logic/reasoning.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Interesting article. It gives rise to two thoughts on my part. First J.C. Hise said many of the same things about direct abdominal work back in the first half of the 20th century. Photos of him show he probably never had a 6 pack and didn't really care.

The second thought is that I, as an older lifter, have my innings with low back problems although without the level of injury you have sustained, Rip. Until the last year, I never failed to include some direct ab work in my lifting, and now, I only do it when leading warmups for jujitsu classes. My back has felt less fatigued and weak the last 6 months, and your own experience as related in this article may account for some of the reasons why. Thanks for stimulating some more thinking on this.

[Dastardly]

Exercises like situps have always hurt my back. It was the only exercise (in combination with a few bad push ups) that we did as kids in school.

I always felt them creating unpleasant stresses on my spine, yet due to my nature I always put maximum effort into them anyway. Both them and push ups were the only exercise I knew and I was barely able to do the push ups.

I feel that doing all these situps as a kid, while having injury prone spine lead to chronic low back pain and spinal instability I have had ever since high school.

[Domjo54]

I feel like I might have missed this in the article: what if a younger trainee feels lower back pain while doing sit-ups, but it is time to add in some accessory abdominal work? For example, if a trainee is moving onto Madcow's Intermediate 5x5 template, are there alternate ab exercises to replace sit-ups with if they make him uncomfortable? Thanks again, Rip.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

As far as abs and field sports, when running, the abs and lower backs job is to do the same thing it does in squatting and deadlifting, providing a stable bridge of the leg to propel the upper body. Running of course adds a unliateral aspect to this, but watch high level sprinters. The back rigid there is little movement.

If you have specific needs in your sport for spinal flexion or extension, of course you are going to have to train it, but not until you run our of your novice progression.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I feel like I might have missed this in the article: what if a younger trainee feels lower back pain while doing sit-ups, but it is time to add in some accessory abdominal work? For example, if a trainee is moving onto Madcow's Intermediate 5x5 template, are there alternate ab exercises to replace sit-ups with if they make him uncomfortable? Thanks again, Rip.

Sounds like a question for madcow.

[simonsky]

ab training is really controversial with all the silly conventional shit and you did a good job making your points and backing them up without all those silly mumbo jumbo studies. excellent article Rip!

may i suggest stretching/mobility/activation to be the next topic because in my opinion it is also controversial and most people "stretch" just because they see other people do it or it is "conventional"?

[cannibal.horse]

Cheers Rip. Sit ups have always pissed off my lower back, and now I'll have 10 minutes of gym time back a week.

[OITW]

Rip, I discovered the GHD when I started Crossfit, my gym actually had one, and used right (meaning, not 50 reps x 3 sets for time), it really tightened up my midsection. It's not necessary for novices under the bar, but it really helped me. Unfortunately, I've had to give it up for "fat boy" training because I'm truly scared of adding any more mid-section muscle lest the Navy punish me still more.

One consequence, though, is that I rarely do any abdominal flexion work. When I do the Navy sit-up test, I pull my knees up tight and lock my torso, making the hip flexors do all the work of raising me elbows to knees (here's to orangutang arms). This, I know, runs directly contrary to every guide on how to do crunches/sit-ups etc, and is supposed to be inflicting mortal damage on my lower back--but it doesn't. Have I just been lucky so far, or does it make sense to move the back that way as one tight unit?

[boomerlu]

Rip,

I have to disagree a bit on situps. The primary purpose that I can see of a situp (especially weighted) is to train hip flexion as the hip flexors are actually the prime mover. So the function of the abs in such a situp is to isometrically transfer the force produced by the hip flexors and keep the trunk neutral while doing so.

I'm not sure if it is neuromuscularly possible to do that without spinal flexion, but on the face of it, it should be.

[MisterJ]

so a great option is the Roman Chair situp on the 90-degree bench?

[Domjo54]

Sounds like a question for madcow.

Does he have a forum as well?

[Mark Rippetoe]

One consequence, though, is that I rarely do any abdominal flexion work. When I do the Navy sit-up test, I pull my knees up tight and lock my torso, making the hip flexors do all the work of raising me elbows to knees (here's to orangutang arms). This, I know, runs directly contrary to every guide on how to do crunches/sit-ups etc, and is supposed to be inflicting mortal damage on my lower back--but it doesn't. Have I just been lucky so far, or does it make sense to move the back that way as one tight unit?

If flexion hurts it, and you want to do situps, do them without flexion.

FOCK. Is this somehow elusive?


Does he have a forum as well?

I hope so.

[boomerlu]

If flexion hurts it, and you want to do situps, do them without flexion.

FOCK. Is this somehow elusive?

Rip, the way you wrote the article made it sound like you can't do situps without spinal flexion. Hence my earlier post. Nobody seems to write about this fact.

[OITW]

FOCK! Did you read the post? I said nothing about pain. I said that received wisdom is that ab flexion is required--that the mover has to be the abdominals and not the hip flexors--and that injury results otherwise, but my experience says otherwise. I'm sticking with my experience because for me, no flexion works. The question was, is received wisdom wrong yet again and there is no danger to doing situps with no ab flexion, or have I just been lucky?

[Sami]

I just got some chin-up PRs (10 x BW, 5 x +10kg and 1 x +20kg) and my abs are still hurting 2 days later. Just thought you should know.

[rcp1936]

I got my first weight set a York 110 in June of 53 and faithfully followed the courses that were include
Gained 9 lbs by Sept then knocked off my SR in Hs to run Xcountry and track and work after school

In Sept 54 I started my SR in college and decided to resume training I didn't have the $ for a gym membership but went to the local commercial gym ( one of 2 in the entire city of Phila at that time ) and asked the owner John Fritshe ( who had trained Jules Bacon--George Eifermann --John Farbotnick ) to design me a bulk gaining course

For $5 he outlined a basic exercise for each body part 3 set 8 reps to failure
When you could get 10 reps two workouts in a row and weight and go back to 8

HOWEVER
He explicitly stated " Don't Do Any Direct Ab Work"
They will only make your waist grow and they will get enough of a workout just doing the other exercises

That was over 50 years ago