Finally completely untrained

[Thomas Padron-McCarthy]

After almost a year of strength training, I am happy to report that I am now completely untrained.

That is, I have finally reached the numbers in the "Untrained" column for all lifts in the Weightlifting Performance Standards tables at http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.htm. (Except power cleans, which I don't have access to the equipment for.) Bench was the last one.

My next long-term goal is to become a novice. That will probably take at least a year or two.

I actually considered myself to be reasonably strong, as I was doing push-ups and sit-ups and stuff, and have been training martial arts on and off. It was sort of a disappointment to see those tables, and realize that I wasn't even considered untrained. I'm wondering if others, especially older guys, have the same experience? I'm 46, and perhaps those tables are for active, younger kids, and not old computer geeks?

[Dastardly]

Im a young guy, and have had a lot of trouble getting to the untrained numbers for pressing movements. Im just ridiculously weak there. I regularly see small inexperienced guys with no idea about training or technique outlift my 1rm's, but for multiple reps. It sucks, but hey, you cant be good at everything.

The important thing is progression, and I am about 3x stronger than I started on the squat & deadlift, nearly 2x stronger on bench and overhead press, and many many times stronger on chins/pull ups than when I started. And it seems you are too.

[Thomas Padron-McCarthy]

It's good to hear I'm not alone in having some trouble reaching those numbers. I guess it's just individual variation, and (as they write on the page) one shouldn't take the tables as norms.

And yes, I am getting stronger, and even if it's a bit slow compared to some others, I really don't have anything to complain about. It certainly is both instructive and encouraging to look at the old training logs and compare the numbers. I think I could spend days doing that...

[grizzlybuck]

I've never seen that table, before, but then again, I don't get out much :D I'm glad to see that I've reached Novice in DL and Squat, but with a severly "untrained" right shoulder and left elbow my numbers in the pressing moves are also barely above untrained, on my way oh so slowly to being a novice. It sucks I weigh 250, at least as far as the chart goes, or I wouldn't have to lift as much, lol.

[jimk]

First of all, congratulations on achieving your goal! I've found it's important to have something to shoot for, and I, too, have made reference to Dr. Kilgore's tables in helping frame my own objectives.

Those tables were actually included in the Appendix of PPST first edition, but they were dropped from the second edition that came out last fall. I can recall a posting or two from Rip (SEARCH FUNCTION) that seemed to put less emphasis on the tables, making the point that there are such huge differences between different folk with different physiologies at different points in their training that the tables need to be taken with at least a pound of salt. But as someone who has come late in life to strength training, I have found them helpful in setting my own goals, measuring my performance, and motivating myself when it got too easy to make an excuse for missing a workout. It's nice to feel like I'm not a total idiot at the gym when loading a bar (and knowing I'm squating deep when these 20 year olds with 305 on the bar doing maybe quarter squats also helps.)

A few things I have noted relative to the tables: 1) They are for open class athletes, so those of us with a few miles on the vehicle need to remember we aren't 23 any more. Wish I had found Starting Strength in my teens but Rip and I were still in college then; as a Master (elderly) lifter you get to cut yourself some slack; 2) The weights are for the 1RM, not the 3x5 RMs that you and I are used to training with. I just use a 1 RM calculator based on my 5RMs, and it makes me feel a little better.

I'm pumped, set a couple of PRs today, the program works, stick with it and you will get stronger. Good luck and persevere.

[ColoWayno]

I started at around the same age as you (I'm 47 now). I didn't really pay attention to anything that said this is where you should be at this point in time. Whenever my back hurt (not from DOMS), I backed off of the weight and figured out how to get healed.
Now that I've found the forum I'm a little bit more driven, but not that much. I tend to put up with pain a little longer and I'm a little bit more aggressive, but I back off when needed.
I'm at around 2.5 years without any serious layoffs from injury.
I'm using intermediate programming, but in the big picture I'm happy with two or three productive spurts of progress a year and just staying in the game the rest of the time.
For my next spurt (Fall/Winter) I'm doing compressed linear programming and advanced novice, then onto TM. I hope to do it smarter this time and get everything I can out of beginning and intermediate programming.
After that, I may look at advanced programming even though my numbers will look very much intermediate. What I am doing is slowly evolving in that direction anyway so why not acknowledge it.

[grizzlybuck]

Absolutely not 23 anymore (nor do I feel like it, at least most of the time ;)) so that does soften to blow of being untrained in the pressing moves. At 44, and working somewhat obscene hours, which is playing havok with my workout schedule and sleep, I am very pleased with my linear progression and am so glad that I found this program. I'm to the point that I'm going to start micro-loading the presses, which will make it take all the longer to get to the novice stage. The important part is to try to get stronger, or at least maintain each and every day (workout) and that will put us all way ahead in the game.

[RobertFontaine]

I started fat and weak. Consistent application of SS and the advanced novice program worked for me for around 18 months. I finished with linear programming still fat but much less weak. I see some of the kids dropping linear programming in much under a year but in my 40's I suppose I'm not as robust as a 20 year old boy.

There are a couple of problems with the weight tables. If you are 50 pounds overweight they aren't going to tell you much about your strength level. Fat doesn't move the bar and a diet doesn't make you stronger. The other is that for the purpose of training the definition of novice = a trainee who is able to develop strength using a linear lifting program productively is far more useful than the table.

The same can be said of intermediate trainees where the definition can be = a trainee who is able to develop productively using a 2 phase strength program.

Many of us have no need for advanced or elite training where advanced training enters the area of athletic training that includes seasons and event peaking.

I have just started reading "The Science and Practice of Strength Training" - Zatsiorsky and learning about plio-metric, dynamic effort, repeated effort and maximal effort methods. Haven't got to blocks and such yet.

I can see where elite methods become necessary when intermediate methods are no longer productive. I'm not sure that I will get to that point. An elite athlete generally takes 10 years of training. At my current age I think I will probably lose the race with time and decrepitude.

Defining novice, intermediate, advanced, elite in terms of achievements rather than in terms of training needs isn't terribly useful for the the coach or the trainee.

[uncledmarky]

Rip makes the point that your level of advancement is determined by your adaptation/recovery response (i.e, whether you can adapt and recover workout-to-workout or whether you need longer periods) rather than any achieved numbers. The confusion surrounding this point motivated him to just remove the tables from PPST 2ed.

I just turned 50 and have been training about two years, currently doing a modified Texas Method. By the Strength Standards you linked, I am intermediate in Squat and Deadlift, Novice in Bench and Press, and untrained in Power Cleans. I just did my first Powerlifting meet and got SQ 330#/ BP 209# / DL 374# at BW of 208#.

That said, there are age-adjusted Strength Standards out there. I am not sure where I saw them other than the charts you can buy from Dr Killgore here: http://www.killustrated.com/sport-amp-fitness-prints.html

[WatsupHannity]

The only thing that matters is improvement and progression. What tables like that are supposed to accomplish for the individual trainee is beyond me.

[theuofh]

Lon Kilgore has posters on his site with updated strength tables with age adjusted categories.

Here is a link to the bench press for example:
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-62994786381314_2109_2965139

The rest of the tables can be found here:
http://www.killustrated.com/sport-amp-fitness-prints.html

[Lon Kilgore]

New metric posters will be up over the next week for those that don't like their weights in pounds. The metric squat is available today.

In response to an earlier post about why have standards if rate of adaptation is the criteria of importance (and it is);

1 - People like to have a tangible means of comparison to others doing the same activity.

2 - They can serve as a useful motivational tool in certain circumstances.

3 - People continually ask for them, hence the new metric posters I'm finally getting around to producing.

4 - They serve as a interesting and frustrating discussion piece for online mathematicians and statisticians who try to derive predictive equations from them.

[MazdaMatt]

Hey Lon. I appreciate your number crunching for what I think is the right reason. I think what a lot of people miss is that these are "what people have been observed to have achieved when reaching these levels of adaptation/recovery" rather than "what level of adaptation and recovery you are at when yuo can lift this much".

I just like checking in now and then to see how I compare to the sampled averages. It seems that my personal experience very closely matches the tables in the squat and deadlift, but i'm trumped in the upper body lifts. I could have told you that on a whim, though, so the tables must be well sorted.

[stickman]

After almost a year of strength training, I am happy to report that I am now completely untrained.


I hear ya! at 44, I just managed to make "untrained" in the press. Weird thing is, I'm fairly close to intermediate in the deadlift. I think I must have extra-long arms or something - I only have to pull two inches to dead-lift, but it feels like about 4 feet to make a press! (Probably a more reasonable explanation is I just haven't mastered the press technique properly ...)

However - at 46 - if you have only just made "untrained" after a year's training on all the lifts - you might want to take a look at how often you train and at your diet. How close are you following the program? For diet, check out this thread on John Scheaffer's board - I found it very informative:


John, some newbie advice please. (sorry)

[stickman]

Lon - if you are still reading this thread -

I have a question about the normal curve in the bottom of the tables at http://www.killustrated.com/sport-am...ss-prints.html. You have the "untrained" group correlating to the weakest 2% of the population. But in PPST, you have the "untrained" value defined as the level of strength you can "reasonably expect" of an athlete who has not trained on weights before. These values are also defined as "standards, not norms" - which suggests to me that we are probably talking about values that are actually above average for Joe Public. Can you clarify?

Thanks!

[Thomas Padron-McCarthy]

However - at 46 - if you have only just made "untrained" after a year's training on all the lifts - you might want to take a look at how often you train and at your diet. How close are you following the program?


I have definitely not been doing the program. Perhaps you can say that my program is "based" on Starting Strength, as in "based on a true story". For one thing, there are no 30-mile walks in Starting Strength.

But it would probably have been much faster even then, if I hadn't focused on dips instead of bench press. Being able to do bodyweight dips felt like a much clearer and more interesting goal than some number on the bench press, and I can now do 3 or 4 bodyweight dips, at a weight a bit over 100 kg (220 pounds).

Also, the first few months I was doing the 10-12-rep curls and Smith machine squats that I was shown by the trainer at the gym.

[tremorviolet]

Lon Kilgore has posters on his site with updated strength tables with age adjusted categories.

Here is a link to the bench press for example:
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-62994786381314_2109_2965139

The rest of the tables can be found here:
http://www.killustrated.com/sport-amp-fitness-prints.html

Hey, cool, the age adjustment pushes me up a class. Doesn't mean I'm gonna change my goals tho'.

[Oldster]

I actually considered myself to be reasonably strong, as I was doing push-ups and sit-ups and stuff, and have been training martial arts on and off. It was sort of a disappointment to see those tables, and realize that I wasn't even considered untrained. I'm wondering if others, especially older guys, have the same experience? I'm 46, and perhaps those tables are for active, younger kids, and not old computer geeks?
I didn't have the same experience, though I have been lifting lifting for a little over 20 years. I'm about 10 years older than you. I wasn't sure as to where I stood and was pleasantly pleased to find out that I stacked up very well in strength though I have never really considered myself stong.

Using the 'Adult' men @ 242lbs I am over the 'Elite' minimum standard in the bench press, even using a close grip bench press. In the Military press I don't stack up quite as well as this is a weak movement for me, but I still made it well over 'Advanced'. In the squat I made it to the 'Elite' class. In the DL I barely made it to the 'Advanced' standard. I don't clean, never hardly tried it. Just doesn't go well with the injuries I've accumulated over my life.

If there is one thing I've learned about gaining strength over the years is to just stay with it. Even when something is injured I find a way to lift if even doing something different. I've had times I couldn't squat so I used a TBDL. Sometimes I couldn't bench or close grip or even press overhead but found I could dip. There is 'usually' a way to get some lifts in. All lifts can't be brought up at the same time all the time. So I tend to concentrate on 1 or 2 lifts that I work very very hard and just use a couple others for assistance work.

At 46 years of age you should be able to add a LOT of strength as long as you have the will to work hard!

Oldster

[Mark E. Hurling]

I have to second what Oldster said here on a few points. 80% of success is just showing up. Keep showing up long enough and your chances of getting to where you want to be in almost any endeavor will pay off.

Kilgore's charts were a benchmark for me when I had nothing else to go on to figure out how well (or not) I was doing. By the way Oldster, I'll bet the age adjusted charts put you in the Elite category for every lift you are doing. Just think, when you get ready to join me along with the rest of the geezers, you'll be doing even better.

[Oldster]

I don't get anything when I try the Kilgore link above. Just a blank page. He has a website too?

If I haven't joined you as a geezer, then heading very quickly toward 60 isn't going to bother me!

[Mark E. Hurling]

Try this one. You'll see the charts near the bottom. Click on the ones you are interested in and zoom in to read them. http://killustrated.com/sport-amp-fitness-prints.html

[Oldster]

Got it to come up finally, thanks! But this makes me a legend in my own mind, hehehe!

In the 242's and over 50 years old, the elite bench goal is something I've done for 14 or 15 reps as a backdown, elite squat is something I've done for 20 reps as a backdown and my weakness, the DL is still a weight I've handled for a pretty easy 15 reps. Yep, pretty much a legend. In my own tiny little area granted, but doggone it I'm gonna make me up some T-shirts...........!

I'm just a garage lifter with no ambitions toward competing, but I may put on my own impromptu meet and not tell anyone else. HA!