Ramping VS Sets Across.

[Dastardly]

Does anybody have much experience training with ramping sets in the style of Bill Starr?

Sets across is killing me with endless cycles of plateau's, reset's, minor injuries like straining joints or reocurring hamstring tendinitis.

This is in regards to squats in my case.

I know in intermediate programming which is based on heavy/light/medium, volume is supposedly the key factor in inducing the weekly adaptation/progression. So are the lead-in sets of submaximal weights still considered "quality" volume? Or might I be wasting energy compared to sets across?

[Smack]

In currently doing Madcow's which is based on one of Bill Starr's routines. Ramping definitely works.

Oh, and to answer your question, yes.

[Dutch]

I've done both, and must say that ramping is doing better things for my strength. currently I'm doing a routine based on some of starr's principles
40-70-80-90-100-95% of rep target max(this can be 8,5 or 3 reps). Maybe with the experience I now have I could make sets across work, coupling the right intensity to the volume which I had trouble with in the past. However what I'm currently doing works so I'll stick with that.

[rockyshaun]

I've done both, and must say that ramping is doing better things for my strength. currently I'm doing a routine based on some of starr's principles
40-70-80-90-100-95% of rep target max(this can be 8,5 or 3 reps). Maybe with the experience I now have I could make sets across work, coupling the right intensity to the volume which I had trouble with in the past. However what I'm currently doing works so I'll stick with that.

Could you clarify a bit with the % up there? How does this look?

[Dutch]

say you have to work up to 5 reps at 100 kg (100%)

this means 5*40-70-80-90-100-95 kg

the lifts follow a 8-5-3 rotation. when I do sets of 8 the last set drops because the 8's are higher volume.

The next step for me will probably to add another set of 95 % on the 3's and 5's and at this stage I will problably add one set to the 8's as well.

[DV]

I'm alot like you in that I have an extremely hard time recovering from sets across on squats when they get "heavy" (330+ ish).

I've used Starrs 5x5 several times to good effect. As you will know, there are quite a few different versions. My favourite is this one:

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/manrodt4.htm

I would recommend getting the book, though. Packed with great info.

[Dastardly]

I have strongest shall survive.

I must admit I was underwhelemed when I first got it. Compared to Starting strength it was difficult to see the information (like technique) I was expecting. But it was a different sort of book. I now understand & love it (for even more than the 70's outfits).

[62jeroen]

Have you tried going back to linear progression with the advance novice program, but with increases of 2 to 3 pounds per workout in stead of 5 on the squat? And for the presses, even going as low as 1 pound per workout (you will need 0.5 pound plates). This won't kill you as much as 5x5 across, chances are that you will fully recover within 3-4 days. With the smaller increases you require less super-compensation to be able to hit your target the next workout.
If it works, with these two "Medium" days, you will have the same progression when compared with TM. Maybe it will help you break your plateau. But take your time and a good back off of 8-10% of your current 5x5 max. Of course, eventually you will plateau again because the two days will become Heavy days when the load increases. But you will know for sure that you have milked everything out of linear progression.

[Dastardly]

Ive milked linear 3x5 for all its worth I think.

I was killing myself for months trying to add weight weekly even with a light day incorporated.

Currently I am in programming limbo. I switched to high bar because low bar kept giving me hamstring tendinitis. So I am kind of doing a linear progression on high bar squats in an effort to work up to my low bar weights.

Ive been doing it with ramping sets so far. Things are starting to get tough again in terms of progression, so will have to decide soon whether to attack it with Texas Method or Starr's ramping Heavy/light/medium.

Something I found confusing was Rips interpretation of Starr's 5x5. He makes it seem quite complicated and difficult to understand. Plus the example of the Starr Method, in the back of PP seems to use sets across.

[BrotherIron]

From personal exp sets across are better when you want hypertrophy and ramping up is better when training for strength. So it all depends on what you're trying to achieve with that movement you're performing.

[drewcarroll2]

From personal exp sets across are better when you want hypertrophy and ramping up is better when training for strength. So it all depends on what you're trying to achieve with that movement you're performing.

BrotherIron,

You made my head explode. Would you mind expanding on this? I am asking because I am new to all of this and have been trying to read and absorb everything I can about SS and that associated with it. I thought that 3x5 across was the best for strength and that ramping and higher reps was for hypertrophy.

If this info belongs in its own thread, would you mind starting it? I would really like the info involved in this.

Thanks
Drew

[msingh]

Brother iron, that's music to my ears. I'm on a VLCD so hypertrophy is impossible but I do want to get strong. So perhaps ramping sets are the way to go. Need to do some reading, i dont even know what they are..

Where can i read about them? I don't have starr's book because i bought PP2 instead, does that cover it? I'll have a look.

[BrotherIron]

BrotherIron,

You made my head explode. Would you mind expanding on this? I am asking because I am new to all of this and have been trying to read and absorb everything I can about SS and that associated with it. I thought that 3x5 across was the best for strength and that ramping and higher reps was for hypertrophy.

If this info belongs in its own thread, would you mind starting it? I would really like the info involved in this.

Thanks
Drew

I'm not a SS follower but here are my .02 cents....

Ramping allows you to lift at greater intensity for your last set whatever it happens to be, whether it's a single, double, or a triple. You're working your way up to the weight which you will be performing at the end and putting all your intensity, effort, strength, speed, etc into. The lower sets warm up and prepare you for that all out attempt on that last set or last couple of sets. This leaves more in the tank when you get to the end to really make the most of it.

Training with sets across forces you to use less intensity to complete all the working sets which are not near maximal amounts. You won't be lifting nearly as much as if you ramped up to that last set for you're all out attempt. So training with sets across is better for when you want muscle hypertrophy and instead of muscle strength.

This is just my experience but it has worked well for me and everyone who I train with.

[squatyourface]

just started wendlers BBB template. figured that since i'm in season i couldnt handle TM, and minor injuries and severe overtraining confirmed this for me. so far, enjoying wendlers 5/3/1 and the ramping of sets. i'm actually making progress again while in season, and my joints feel so much better. sets across worked well for me too, but i wasn't doing any conditioning then and i was drinking milk like a madman.

my 2c

[BrotherIron]

just started wendlers BBB template. figured that since i'm in season i couldnt handle TM, and minor injuries and severe overtraining confirmed this for me. so far, enjoying wendlers 5/3/1 and the ramping of sets. i'm actually making progress again while in season, and my joints feel so much better. sets across worked well for me too, but i wasn't doing any conditioning then and i was drinking milk like a madman.

my 2c

I have a friend who does Wendler's BBB and he loves it. He made tremendous progress with it.

[LudwigVan]

So perhaps ramping sets are the way to go. Need to do some reading, i dont even know what they are..

Where can i read about them?

Ramping sets just means increasing the weight each workset instead of doing all of your worksets with the same weight.

[DV]

Something I found confusing was Rips interpretation of Starr's 5x5. He makes it seem quite complicated and difficult to understand. Plus the example of the Starr Method, in the back of PP seems to use sets across.

I'll agree that the explanation of Starr's method in PP (1st version at least) is not very exhaustive. But I guess that's partly so people will get the actual book with all the fabulous info and 70s moustaches.

About ramping/sets across Starr didn't ONLY do ramping. I think that the ramping in the 5x5 actually had alot to do with the institutional setup (college football teams) that the programme was targeted for. That said loads of people have gotten great progress on this protocol.

[Peter_k]

Just to clear up some confusion here. Bill Starr recommended basically a combination of ramping and sets across, depending on the lifter's level of advancement.

He would have the trainee increase the workload (volume) gradually by adding heavy triples, doubles and singles, as well as backoff sets, and eventually extra sets of 5 of the top set. You could also add extra sets of 5 in the middle (e.g. repeat your 3rd set instead of your top set--he recommended this for less advanced lifters).

After beginner stage, Heavy/Light/Medium set up would be used, with higher volume on Monday, higher intensity on Friday (as in the TM).

Wednesday would be light day, which most people understand already. Here is how Monday and Friday would look:

For example, for squats:

A rank novice 5x5:

100x5, 115x5, 130x5, 145x5, 160x5 (both Monday and Friday - increasing weight on Friday)


An intermediate 5x5:

200x5, 230x5, 260x5, 290x5, 320x5, 260x8 (Monday)
230x5, 260x3, 290x3, 335x3, 260x8 (Friday)


A more advanced intermediate 5x5:

290x5, 330x5, 370x5, 370x5, 370x5 (Monday)
330x5, 370x5, 400x1, 400x1, 400x1, 300x10 (Friday)

An advanced trainee 5x5: 450x5x5 for a few weeks (loading phase), than higher intensity, lower volume for peaking phase.


The TM and Starr's H/L/M protocol aren't that different either. For squatting, he generally recommended higher intensity, lower volume on the medium day.

For benching and pressing, he advocated the same sort of thing, only done on alternate weeks. Each week you'd up the intensity of each pressing exercise, doing singles, doubles or triples.

Say you were doing bench press (heavy), Incline Press (medium) and military press (light).

So it might look like this:

Week 1 - Bench 5x5, Incline Press 5x5, Press 2x5, 4x3, 1x8
Week 2 - Bench 2x5, 4x3, 1x8, Incline Press 5x5, Press 5x5
Week 3 - Bench 5x5, Incline Press 2x5, 4x3, 1x8, Press 5x5

[MEbigUsmall]

say you have to work up to 5 reps at 100 kg (100%)

this means 5*40-70-80-90-100-95 kg

the lifts follow a 8-5-3 rotation. when I do sets of 8 the last set drops because the 8's are higher volume.

The next step for me will probably to add another set of 95 % on the 3's and 5's and at this stage I will problably add one set to the 8's as well.


Im confused, isn't that 6 sets? 40-70-80-90-100-95?

[mstrofbass]

Sets across is killing me with endless cycles of plateau's, reset's, minor injuries like straining joints or reocurring hamstring tendinitis.

I'm too lazy to read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has been asked:

How did you come to this conclusion?