Riding The Bull

[Marotta]

About to go train shortly, and I'm tired as hell. I'm thinking of Obtaining/Chugging a Redbull before I go, as I've never had one. Good idea/bad idea?

[Carlos Daniel]

I can't see a reason not to, I have had pleasant experiences with stimulants and lifting. Just be careful if you lift after 6 pm, if you are not used to caffeine you will get some insomnia.

[Marotta]

Tried it out, if it did make a difference, Then I woulda been pathetic without it, only got 4 reps on my first set of squats, and I was taking 5-10 seconds between deadlift reps because my grip was failing on 60lbs less than my 1RM. 4.5 hours of sleep is not enough...

[Rorschach]

Caffeine before training isn't a bad idea (nor is a sugar boost), but no, it doesn't replace a good night's sleep. Your CNS is still fried. ;)

[Sami]

I always train after a strong coffee. There's a ton of good research showing that caffeine is a great pre-work out substance, particularly for lifting. Red Bull is a bit on the low side I think to get good results (the smaller cans anyway). Don't they have like 150mg of caffeine or something? That's probably enough if you're caffeine sensitive, as any higher may not feel nice. But studies show significant results at like 3-4mg per kg of bodyweight I think. That's several hundred mg of caffeine for most people.

But yes, sleep and recovery is drastically more important. Caffeine is just a little icing on the cake of recovery.

[Dastardly]

Has anyone here tried ephedrine?

It can be easily obtained in over the counter decongestants and is supposedly a lot more effective than caffiene. Especially for mental sharpness.

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Im totally going to try some the next time I have to take part in some kind of sports/road cycling. I actually suffer from rhinitis & asthma so it may give me a double bonus.

[MazdaMatt]

Ephedrine has been removed from shelves in Canada long ago. This is due to the death risk of people who use ephedrine+caffein+asprin as a super pick-up (often used in club scene as legal stims).

PSEUDOephedrine, on the other hand, is available OTC and is labelled as Sudafed or generic "sinus decongestant". It is a bronchial dilator (opens up the little airways of your lungs and dries and opens your sinuses). I used to take these regularly with coffee for studying and I take one before the gym if I'm feeling stuffy (like when high humidity makes breathing heavily harder).

Personally, I find that pseudoephedrins is a very effective workout assitant and pseudoephedrine with coffee makes a great studying aid. I've never tried the combo with weightlifting, but I'm sure it would rock.

Don't take the above with asprine as you may die.

edit - about 10 years ago a Canadian Olympic rower had her gold medal taken away because she was tested positive for one of these (psudoephedrine or ephedrine, i don't know which). She had a cold and had taken the meds before competition without realizing they were "on the list".

[Carlos Daniel]

Ephedrine has been removed from shelves in Canada long ago. This is due to the death risk of people who use ephedrine+caffein+asprin as a super pick-up (often used in club scene as legal stims).

PSEUDOephedrine, on the other hand, is available OTC and is labelled as Sudafed or generic "sinus decongestant". It is a bronchial dilator (opens up the little airways of your lungs and dries and opens your sinuses). I used to take these regularly with coffee for studying and I take one before the gym if I'm feeling stuffy (like when high humidity makes breathing heavily harder).

Personally, I find that pseudoephedrins is a very effective workout assitant and pseudoephedrine with coffee makes a great studying aid. I've never tried the combo with weightlifting, but I'm sure it would rock.

Don't take the above with asprine as you may die.

edit - about 10 years ago a Canadian Olympic rower had her gold medal taken away because she was tested positive for one of these (psudoephedrine or ephedrine, i don't know which). She had a cold and had taken the meds before competition without realizing they were "on the list".

Ephedrine is probably illegal in a lot a places. Pseudo is quite ok regarding stimulant effects, but the effect is a bit too long for me, runs for about 12 hours. With caffeine it has quite a kick.

I sometimes take a low dose (5mg) ritalin before I train if I'm feeling tired, just to make me a little more active. 10 mg makes you quite excited to do things, a quite interesting combination with heavy deadlifts.

As for the rower, I find it strange. As said in that documentary "Bigger, stronger, faster", these people are constantly reminded of the meds in that list.

[MazdaMatt]

As for the rower, I find it strange. As said in that documentary "Bigger, stronger, faster", these people are constantly reminded of the meds in that list.

Yeah, maybe it was a BS story to save face in the media. Or maybe she was an idiot. I can't see it actually being used as a long-term performance enhancing drug and I'm sure it would wash from the system in short order, so there must have been some kind of mistake. She may have even been given the medal back, but I'm not sure.

[broseph]

I actually bought caffeine powder, and I mix it in 60 mL syringes at 10 mg/ml to be dispensed into my beverage of choice at my dosage of choice. Plus, I'm a nerd and like to play chemistry lab in my kitchen.

200 mg plus 8-16 oz gatorade equals great workout.

Oh yeah, and its super cheap.

[Dastardly]

I sometimes take a low dose (5mg) ritalin before I train if I'm feeling tired, just to make me a little more active. 10 mg makes you quite excited to do things, a quite interesting combination with heavy deadlifts.



Where did you get ritalin from?

I actually have aspergers & ad issues but have never been offerred drugs for it. Always been curious about trying them.

[Tiburon]

Where did you get ritalin from?

I actually have aspergers & ad issues but have never been offerred drugs for it. Always been curious about trying them.

A doctor?

[Carlos Daniel]

Where did you get ritalin from?

I actually have aspergers & ad issues but have never been offerred drugs for it. Always been curious about trying them.

It's much easier if you are a med student (or a doctor I suppose). I happen to be friends with the head of the psychiatry department at the med school I go to, he writes me a prescription every now and then.

I don't think ritalin helps with Asperger's.

[Dastardly]

I have ridiculously low attention span when it comes to studying in conventional formats like university lectures.

I can last about 15-20 minutes tops before I literally start falling asleep. But ive had to endure lectures which have lasted full days. It was literally a battle not to keep my head upright and my eyes open.

[crc]

I actually have aspergers & ad issues but have never been offerred drugs for it.

Who diagnosed you with these?

[Sami]

Ephedrine has been removed from shelves in Canada long ago. This is due to the death risk of people who use ephedrine+caffein+asprin as a super pick-up (often used in club scene as legal stims).

PSEUDOephedrine, on the other hand, is available OTC and is labelled as Sudafed or generic "sinus decongestant". It is a bronchial dilator (opens up the little airways of your lungs and dries and opens your sinuses). I used to take these regularly with coffee for studying and I take one before the gym if I'm feeling stuffy (like when high humidity makes breathing heavily harder).

Personally, I find that pseudoephedrins is a very effective workout assitant and pseudoephedrine with coffee makes a great studying aid. I've never tried the combo with weightlifting, but I'm sure it would rock.

Don't take the above with asprine as you may die.

edit - about 10 years ago a Canadian Olympic rower had her gold medal taken away because she was tested positive for one of these (psudoephedrine or ephedrine, i don't know which). She had a cold and had taken the meds before competition without realizing they were "on the list".

How much sudafed were you taking for studying?

[Regin Smidur]

Whats up with the promotion of habit forming drugs for lifting going on here? I guess if you take a low dosage you'll be fine but keep in mind that stimulants will effect appetite and sleep.

Also, its important to remember that if you start popping amphetamines to help you train you can no longer be considered a raw lifter.

[Sami]

Meh. Sudafed has phenylephrine here now, not pseudoephedrine anymore.

[Scrofula]

I have ridiculously low attention span when it comes to studying in conventional formats like university lectures.

I can last about 15-20 minutes tops before I literally start falling asleep. But ive had to endure lectures which have lasted full days. It was literally a battle not to keep my head upright and my eyes open.
I was like this for most of my undergrad years. Hell, I found it hard to stay awake in meetings. The main thing that fixed it was getting an extra couple of hours of sleep every night. I also try to bring some coffee or tea to long lectures. It's not so much the caffeine as the act of holding a cup and periodically sipping from it.

[vivek]

i am not a big fan of RedBull or any of the "energy drinks" outside of straight up coffee...

I drink a large coffee with cream every morning, first thing. depending on how lousy i feel by afternoon, i will have another coffee before i train. i find it gives me a good boost to handle business.

i drank Red Bull, Monster, and whatever else for a little bit. I found that they fucked me up completely--- fucked up my sleep, made me hyper WITHOUT feeling stronger, and fucked up my attention span. No good. The times I have had to drink these have been when I already been up for over 24hours and have to keep functioning. But I always felt kind of hungover and messed up with those drinks on board....

Now, my main beverages are water, milk, beer, and coffee. I seem to be much better off.

hope this helps...
V

[Carlos Daniel]

Whats up with the promotion of habit forming drugs for lifting going on here?

I think we are all big boys here and are able to discuss big boy subjects without going all "mama told me I shouldn't do this", right?


I guess if you take a low dosage you'll be fine but keep in mind that stimulants will effect appetite and sleep.

You are right, it will affect appetite, but sleep only if you take it close to when you sleep.


Also, its important to remember that if you start popping amphetamines to help you train you can no longer be considered a raw lifter.

You must have a different definition of what a raw lifter is.

[broseph]

Preach it Carlos!

Everyone in the frickin world drinks caffeine, cuz its awesome. "If everyone in the world did meth would that make meth awesome?" says the douche that refuses to use practical thought.

Its impossible to draw a perfect line between super ultra raw and everyone else. Milk is natural, meat is natural, coffee and tea are natural, cocaine and opiates come from natural sources, steroids are made by the body, etc, etc.

-Do what's right in your own mind to maximize gains and keep a free conscience.
-The only real principle to live by is that practicality supersedes principle.
-Don't be a douche.

[MazdaMatt]

How much sudafed were you taking for studying?

I was always taking generic pseudoephedrine (not sudafed, which apparently isn't pseudoephedrine anymore), 60mg, rarely greater than the recommended dosages for a head cold and if I took more than recommended it was by cutting the 4-hour dosing period down to 2 and usually that wasn't all day long, just when necessary.

Regin, nobody is "promoting" anything. We're discussing. Also, caffein and pseudoephedrine may be "habbit forming" in the sense that eating burgers is habbit forming, but they are certainly not addictive. Also, pseudoephedrine is not a stim, it is a bronchial dilator - it just allows you to breath easier; there is no increase in heart rate or reaction time and no jitters or "come-down"

[LimieJosh]

Also, caffein and pseudoephedrine may be "habbit forming" in the sense that eating burgers is habbit forming, but they are certainly not addictive. Also, pseudoephedrine is not a stim, it is a bronchial dilator - it just allows you to breath easier; there is no increase in heart rate or reaction time and no jitters or "come-down"

There are considerable withdrawl symptoms for habitual caffiene consumers, it can therefore be considered habit forming. Also Psuedoephedrine is a stimulant.

As for the hyperbole on the previous page about the ECA, you should really tone that down.

[MazdaMatt]

There are considerable withdrawl symptoms for habitual caffiene consumers, it can therefore be considered habit forming. Also Psuedoephedrine is a stimulant.

As for the hyperbole on the previous page about the ECA, you should really tone that down.

That's about what I meant regarding caffein - same goes for habitual potato chip eaters, but you can get over that with a little bit of willpower and a couple days... as opposed to the effects heroine or cocain.

I was unaware that pseudoephedrine was considered a stim because I've never personally felt like it is. I can take one and go to sleep and that doesn't work with a caffein pill or a coffee for me. It only seems to allow me to push my limits better because of the increased ability to consume oxygen.

I fully don't get your second paragraph.

[LimieJosh]

That's about what I meant regarding caffein - same goes for habitual potato chip eaters,

No it doesnt. There are no physiological effects of removing potato chips from your diet, there are for habitual caffiene consumers.

The second paragraph was related to your idea that ECA kills. Its hyperbole, and its wrong. The banning of Ephedrine and related compounds in the US and Canada was one based on politcial grandstanding and in the absence of good science. There is certainly nothing substantiating the idea that it is fine by itself, but deadly when consumed with asprin.

[MazdaMatt]

Well, I didn't know that there was conspiracy-theory politics behind the banning, but that was the reason that was given and I had no reason not to believe it.

By ECA do you mean "ephedrine-caffein-asprin"?

You just try taking chips away from my girlfriend. :)

[Carlos Daniel]

That's about what I meant regarding caffein - same goes for habitual potato chip eaters, but you can get over that with a little bit of willpower and a couple days... as opposed to the effects heroine or cocain.

I was unaware that pseudoephedrine was considered a stim because I've never personally felt like it is. I can take one and go to sleep and that doesn't work with a caffein pill or a coffee for me. It only seems to allow me to push my limits better because of the increased ability to consume oxygen.

I fully don't get your second paragraph.

I'm assuming you never had a serious experience with caffeine. It can be quite addictive, of course nothing in the range of heroin. You do get a withdraw, specially if you take say 500 mg/day.

And pseudo is a stimulant, it's intended use in a cold is to promote vasoconstriction, resulting in less edema in nasal airways. The mechanism of action is the same as regular amphetamines too.

[MazdaMatt]

Well if a cup of coffee has 90-100mg of caffeine in it and I went from 8-12 cups/day (engineering job with free delicious coffee) down to zero (realized 8-12 was a BAD idea), then I can say from first-hand experience that it isn't any noticable withdrawal other than some tiredness for a couple days, then an increase in all-day energy. Much the same as many people feel from a sudden reduction in sugar consumption.

[Carlos Daniel]

Well if a cup of coffee has 90-100mg of caffeine in it and I went from 8-12 cups/day (engineering job with free delicious coffee) down to zero (realized 8-12 was a BAD idea), then I can say from first-hand experience that it isn't any noticable withdrawal other than some tiredness for a couple days, then an increase in all-day energy. Much the same as many people feel from a sudden reduction in sugar consumption.

Your have one hell of a strange physiology.

[MazdaMatt]

Your have one hell of a strange physiology.

Between this thread and the other, you seem to be making that pretty clear to me... pot and working out makes me not hungry, I get more withdrawal from sudden drop in sugar than caffein, and I can go to sleep immediately after taking pseudoephedrine... (which, by the way, i feel absolutely ZERO withdrawal from when suddenly stopping the use of)

[George Noble]

Also, its important to remember that if you start popping amphetamines to help you train you can no longer be considered a raw lifter.

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[WatsupHannity]

Ephedrine has been removed from shelves in Canada long ago.


Wow, no. Ephedrine is absolutely everywhere in Canada, and dirt-cheap too. Since you live in the area, you can find it at Spartan Nutrition, Popeye's, or the health store in Galleria Mall (I live in London if you can't tell.)

[Patrick]

Caffeine before training is and old trick and one I live by. I buy ephedrine as asthma medication (called Bronk Aid or something similar) and take one when I'm really, really dragging ass because of my notoriously poor sleeping skills. I don't like working out on ephedrine at all -- tried it a few times and it caused a lot of light-headedness, which I do not feel comfortable lifting with. Ephedrine does a number on appetite, too. Pretty interesting compound.

[Dastardly]

Do you feel that ephedrine might work well for something more dependent on cardio respiratory fitness/conditioning?

Like for example a bike race?

[Carlos Daniel]

I would bet that there has been some research done on that.

[Patrick]

Do you feel that ephedrine might work well for something more dependent on cardio respiratory fitness/conditioning?

Like for example a bike race?

If memory serves, it was banned in the US because a baseball player had a stroke/heart attack and was found to be taking ephedrine. Of course, that was probably in too high a dose and not in optimum conditions... but ephedrine is pretty serious stuff and can be addictive. Not give-blowjobs-for-spare-change addictive, but there's a reason they people use it to make methamphetamine.

But for cardio stuff... ephedrine is known to have a secondary thermogenic effect, so you'll run a little hot and burn extra calories. Add that with its appetite suppressant qualities and it's obvious why it's part of the vaunted EC or ECA stack. So for fat loss you can't beat it.

I've taken it on days where I played basketball or volleyball for a few hours and I won't do it again. If you need a workout stimulant, I'd stick with caffeine; it works and it seems to be a little safer.

[MazdaMatt]

Wow, no. Ephedrine is absolutely everywhere in Canada, and dirt-cheap too. Since you live in the area, you can find it at Spartan Nutrition, Popeye's, or the health store in Galleria Mall (I live in London if you can't tell.)

I have been thoroughly proven wrong. My bad. I looked for it on drug store shelves and only found pseudoephedrine. I never checked "health" stores. I suppose my googling back then didn't take country into account.

As for ephedrin and bike races, if it works the same as pseudoephedrine then yes, absolutely it will help you.

[Rorschach]

What about Viagra? Would the benefits of increased vascularity overcome the drawbacks of increased chaffing?

[MazdaMatt]

If you're suffering that sort of chaffing, you may want to try lube... or foreplay.

[LimieJosh]

If memory serves, it was banned in the US because a baseball player had a stroke/heart attack and was found to be taking ephedrine. Of course, that was probably in too high a dose and not in optimum conditions... but ephedrine is pretty serious stuff and can be addictive. Not give-blowjobs-for-spare-change addictive, but there's a reason they people use it to make methamphetamine.

But for cardio stuff... ephedrine is known to have a secondary thermogenic effect, so you'll run a little hot and burn extra calories. Add that with its appetite suppressant qualities and it's obvious why it's part of the vaunted EC or ECA stack. So for fat loss you can't beat it.

I've taken it on days where I played basketball or volleyball for a few hours and I won't do it again. If you need a workout stimulant, I'd stick with caffeine; it works and it seems to be a little safer.

There were numerous annecdotal reports of its use among younger seemingly healthy people who died that were picked on by the national media. It is analagous to wrestlers and steroids and vacinations and autism. It lends itself to media coverage (interested in scandal, not facts or truth) and grandstanding, but the data in now way supported a ban.

It is also psuedoephedrine that is primarily used for making meth, which is the primary reason for the change in distribution laws and ease of access in the US, rather than because of supposed health fears.

As for its efficacy, its crap in isolation as a weight loss agent. It does not produce non-shivering thermogenisis, or any other magic mechanism of fat burning. However, it does typically supress appetite, as do most stimulants, and as can be infered from the fact it is a stimulant, it has some potential for increased work output (and may also improve the capacity for fat oxidation during exercise).