Fish oil

[confuzzl3don3]

I know fish oil's meant to be good for you because of the omega-3s and stuff, so i've gotten myself some normal cheap fish oil tablets (1g each cap with 180mg EPA and 120mg DHA). On the directions it says that to use as an omega-3 supp, 2 caps a day is fine. I've been taking that amount for a week now, but i was just wondering if that is true in yielding enough omega-3s for a benefit. Ah yes and i also eat a can of tuna every day so i what omega-3s are in that as well, plus some fish every couple of days.

Thanks

[Carnivroar]

Yes it's very good. I noticed a big difference in recovery once mine ran out. Gonna order some more next week.

But the second most important thing is to remove concentrated sources of Omega 6 from your diet.

[Dastardly]

I get a very noticeable therapeutic effect for my persistent hamstring tendonitis when I take cod liver oil.

It was really getting so bad it was crippling, but I started to take swig of oil on training days and it became much better. If I dont take it I strongly feel the difference. The swig is probably about 15ml. which equates to 1380mg DHA and 1035 EPA.

[Wayne Riddle]

You can use the Whole9 Fish Oil calculator (http://whole9life.com/fish-oil/) to get an idea of their suggestions regarding fish oil intake. FWIW I take a little over 5 grams of combined EPA/DHA a day.

[Ian Kovtunovich]

I know fish oil's meant to be good for you because of the omega-3s and stuff, so i've gotten myself some normal cheap fish oil tablets (1g each cap with 180mg EPA and 120mg DHA). On the directions it says that to use as an omega-3 supp, 2 caps a day is fine. I've been taking that amount for a week now, but i was just wondering if that is true in yielding enough omega-3s for a benefit. Ah yes and i also eat a can of tuna every day so i what omega-3s are in that as well, plus some fish every couple of days.

Thanks

I don't put much stock in supplements, although I do take fish oil, and from what I recall when I was researching the stuff myself, those are pretty low amounts of EPA and DHA. Next time you shop for the stuff, go through the labels until you find a nice high ratio of EPA/DHA to total capsule weight. I was going to recommend Trader Joe's, but for some reason I'm thinking you're in the UK, so, check your local stockist, or druggist, or chemist, or whatever you call it back there.

[Patrick]

The idea with fish oil is that you're balancing the omega-3/omega-6 ratio -- they're fats so bodyweight informs how much you need. Your diet is another, your fitness level is as well, etc. You also get some vitamins, but that's a tertiary effect at best. The link that Wayne provided is where I would start. The Whole9 crew and Robb have a pretty good handle on this kind of thing.

There's an interweb full of stuff to read as to why this is a good idea. I'll just say that I've swallowed my fish oil every day for the last few years. During that time, even when I'm busting my ass to abuse my body with sports during the summer, I don't have chronic aches. The anti-inflammatory effect is pretty serious. It's literally better than Advil if you keep at it for a couple of weeks. And you'll recover better after exertion as well, ie - better progression! It's really a win-win-win-win.

The amount that you're going to be told you need is going to seem absurd. Pull a Nike and Just Do It. If you don't feel better and perform better after a month then forget it. But this is one of those things that stands up to the Pepsi Challenge; unless you've already got your omega ratios dialed in, you'll feel a huge benefit from this. It speaks for itself.

[confuzzl3don3]

Wow looking at those sites and all your posts means that i should be eating a lot more omega-3s. I live in australia and common brands are like blackmore, nature's own and stuff like that. I've currently got the normal Blackmore's. Any Aussies know of some good cheap brands?

[LimieJosh]

Woah, that just told me I need to consume 50 of my pills/day. On a good day I do 3, 3X a day

[Rorschach]

Ah yes and i also eat a can of tuna every day

You could consider changing to mackerel/sardines/etc - more nutritious, and eating a lot of tuna brings a higher risk of mercury poisoning. I'm probably just being paranoid, but it's worth considering.

Check the chart at the bottom if you fancy:
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/58464/title/Studies_aim_to_resolve__confusion_over_mercury_ris ks_from_fish

[Patrick]

Yeah, it's a ridiculous number of caps per day. There's a quality/money/convenience calculus to do somewhere in there -- how many caps do you want to swallow (they sell pure, tasteless oil too), how much per serving, etc. I buy cheap stuff cause I don't mind.

[Ian Kovtunovich]

On the subject of taking as much as possible, or some absurd amount--as I understand it, you're not doing yourself any favors by having so many 3's that you then are deficient in 6's. Your body needs both. As with any supplement or food, just because some may be good for you, it doesn't mean that more is better.

[lanky]

You can use the Whole9 Fish Oil calculator (http://whole9life.com/fish-oil/) to get an idea of their suggestions regarding fish oil intake. FWIW I take a little over 5 grams of combined EPA/DHA a day.

Following those guidelines using the .5 factor I would need 10 teaspoons of my current fish oil a day. That would be over $3 a day in just fish oil.

[Dastardly]

You should cost up how much it would be to follow the supplement guidelines in Bill Starr's book.

[lanky]

You should cost up how much it would be to follow the supplement guidelines in Bill Starr's book.

Or you could take Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon's advice.

http://www.stumptuous.com/fuck-supplements

[MazdaMatt]

Or you could take Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon's advice.

http://www.stumptuous.com/fuck-supplements

That easily-misunderstood post is pretty awesome.

[Wayne Riddle]

Following those guidelines using the .5 factor I would need 10 teaspoons of my current fish oil a day. That would be over $3 a day in just fish oil.

Need a fish oil with more EPA/DHA in it. I spend about $25 for a month's supply.

[Sami]

On the subject of taking as much as possible, or some absurd amount--as I understand it, you're not doing yourself any favors by having so many 3's that you then are deficient in 6's. Your body needs both. As with any supplement or food, just because some may be good for you, it doesn't mean that more is better.

Yeah, your overall diet is supposed to factor into that. I've heard Robb Wolf tell some people they don't really even need the n-3 oil, because they had achieved the zen-like nirvana state that is... fully-strict paleo. If you're still eating fast food drizzled with vegetable oil and a side of gluten juice, then you'll need 330ml of n-3 oil per day.

[lanky]

Need a fish oil with more EPA/DHA in it. I spend about $25 for a month's supply.

Brand and source please.

[Patrick]

On the subject of taking as much as possible, or some absurd amount--as I understand it, you're not doing yourself any favors by having so many 3's that you then are deficient in 6's. Your body needs both. As with any supplement or food, just because some may be good for you, it doesn't mean that more is better.

This is one of those statements that's true but misleading. What I mean is, it's perfectly accurate to say that consuming too much water is lethal but it's misleading because most people don't drink enough water and it's really hard to drink enough to kill yourself.

The ideal ratio of omega 3:o : omega 6 is, as far as I understand it, 1:1. The problem is that the majority of dietary fat in the Western diet is heavily, heavily lopsided towards omega 6's. So the goal of fish oil supplementation is to move that ratio closer to even. If you're eating lots of oily, wild-caught fish, olive oil, coconut oil, or grass fed meat you're following a very non-western diet and you don't need to supplement much or at all. But if you're eating corn-fed meat and living a more or less "normal" western lifestyle your omega ratio isn't anywhere near 1.

The upshot is that it would take a deliberate effort to swallow enough fish oil to go as lopsided towards omega 3 as most people already are with omega 6.

[Ian Kovtunovich]

This is one of those statements that's true but misleading. What I mean is, it's perfectly accurate to say that consuming too much water is lethal but it's misleading because most people don't drink enough water and it's really hard to drink enough to kill yourself.

The ideal ratio of omega 3:o : omega 6 is, as far as I understand it, 1:1. The problem is that the majority of dietary fat in the Western diet is heavily, heavily lopsided towards omega 6's. So the goal of fish oil supplementation is to move that ratio closer to even. If you're eating lots of oily, wild-caught fish, olive oil, coconut oil, or grass fed meat you're following a very non-western diet and you don't need to supplement much or at all. But if you're eating corn-fed meat and living a more or less "normal" western lifestyle your omega ratio isn't anywhere near 1.

The upshot is that it would take a deliberate effort to swallow enough fish oil to go as lopsided towards omega 3 as most people already are with omega 6.

I guess I was under the impression that the amount required to skew you back to 1:1 (thank you for that piece of info, which I had heard at some point but forgotten) was not so very much, although you make a good point that one's intake of Omega-6's sets the bar. All the same, I think the point remains that just pounding Omega-3's willy-nilly without some kind of idea of a reasonable target amount is not the way to do it (as with any supplement, which is an idea that seems to be lost on most supplement consumers).

[confuzzl3don3]

I browsed the health food sections at the local pharmacy and supermarket and basically all of them are typically 1 tablet contains 1g of fish oil which has 300mg of omega-3s (180 EPA and 120 DHA). Doesn't matter what brand they're all the same. Is it different in the US, Europe, etc? Do you guys have more grams of fish oil in each tablet? Or is it just higher concentration of omega-3s in the fish over in the US :D??

Hmm well i guess having some additional omega-3s is better than none at all. Might try doubling the dose to 4 tabs/day and see how it goes from there.

[DanO_123]

Biotest Flameout has 770mg per pill but they charge $35 per bottle.

[Dastardly]

The key is getting liquid oil, NOT pills.

A pill contains only a droplet of oil wrapped in a thick pouch of gelatine/glycerin. A spoon of oil is probably equivalent to 6 big pills. Liquid is much cheaper than pills too.

Modern good quality liquid oils are highly filtered and have very high purity so odour is low. They taste pretty good, especially if you get a citrus flavour.

-edit-

I just checked out Australian ebay. There seems to be a limited variety available and it is all a lot more expensive that what is available in the UK & USA.

Have you thought about just eating real fish? Australia has good seafood doesnt it?

[confuzzl3don3]

Yeah i do eat a decent amount of fish, but i'd just prefer to get straight fish oil. It's a lot more convenient than always trying to get fish into my diet every day. And seafood isn't that cheap. Chicken, beef and pork are a lot cheaper

[MazdaMatt]

Does anyone have any idea what sort of fish to chk/pork/beef ratio one's diet should have to have a good 3/6 ratio? I don't eat any "organic" "free range" or "grass fed" and the fish I eat is USUALLY salmon and probably mostly farmed (I prefer the taste/texture and the extra fat of farmed).

I do occasional AYCE sushi, but that is (unfortunately) not frequent enough to be considered in the diet.

[Dastardly]

In th UK, all cattle & sheep are grass fed as standard.

It might be the same in Canada, have you checked?

[toddmr]

You can use the Whole9 Fish Oil calculator (http://whole9life.com/fish-oil/) to get an idea of their suggestions regarding fish oil intake. FWIW I take a little over 5 grams of combined EPA/DHA a day.

I take nearly 11 grams per day, which with 360 mg epa/dha per cap means I take 30 of those fuckers per day. Just went up from 7/day pretty recently, so I'll let y'all know how it goes.

[tertius]

Or you could take Dr. Krista Scott-Dixon's advice.

http://www.stumptuous.com/fuck-supplements

Anyone who doesn't know how awesome Krista is should spend some time perusing her site. Because she's pretty goddamn awesome.

[Patrick]

Does anyone have any idea what sort of fish to chk/pork/beef ratio one's diet should have to have a good 3/6 ratio? I don't eat any "organic" "free range" or "grass fed" and the fish I eat is USUALLY salmon and probably mostly farmed (I prefer the taste/texture and the extra fat of farmed).

I do occasional AYCE sushi, but that is (unfortunately) not frequent enough to be considered in the diet.

I started typing this response like ten times before I realized there's a little bit of a misunderstanding built in. The first thing is, not all fish is created equal. The second thing is, neither is chicken/pork/beef. That's pretty much the kernel.

If you eat chicken breast, you're not getting much fat and so the offset is minuscule. If you eat a fatty cut of corn-fed beef (sounds great right about now) you'll need to consume quite a bit of wild fish filet to bring the omega ratio to 1. You'll need to eat proportionally less if you get that fish in the form of wild salmon and less still if it's sardines/anchovies. Fish oil supplements are like whey powder... they help a lot because they're convenient.

So the answer is, depending on how much fat you get from omega-6 sources, you try to offset that with fat from omega-3 sources.

As a complete aside, I have stuck in my memory that you're handy in the kitchen -- if I'm wrong, sorry -- but I learned this fact serendipitously and wanted to pass it on: The whole Mediterranean angle makes serving anchovies sophisticated and even sexy these days. Olives, baguette, olive oil, salt, maybe some cheese and... anchovy! It's a panty peeler! I happen to like the things, but as best as I can tell women figure that eating something you don't enjoy in the name of emulating Europeans is the zenith of Mount Classy. It's a win-win.

[Ian Kovtunovich]

Does anyone have any idea what sort of fish to chk/pork/beef ratio one's diet should have to have a good 3/6 ratio? I don't eat any "organic" "free range" or "grass fed" and the fish I eat is USUALLY salmon and probably mostly farmed (I prefer the taste/texture and the extra fat of farmed).

I do occasional AYCE sushi, but that is (unfortunately) not frequent enough to be considered in the diet.

As I understand it, farmed salmon is often fed corn or other O6-heavy feed, and has significantly less O3 than wild salmon.

Regarding the other guy's question about the amount of EPA/DHA per capsule, I dunno where you're shopping (or maybe Dastardly is right and you are looking at TABLETS instead of CAPSULES), but in my experience, the ratio of O3's to capsule weight/size varies widely from brand to brand. Basically, higher quality fish oil is going to have more O3's per unit weight, and the better the oil the higher the ratio. You might also find that even though one kind is cheaper per bottle, by the time you get a decent amount of O3's by taking 20 of the capsules, you're not getting such a good deal vs. a more expensive per bottle, but higher potency, capsule.

[MazdaMatt]

As a complete aside, I have stuck in my memory that you're handy in the kitchen -- if I'm wrong, sorry -- but I learned this fact serendipitously and wanted to pass it on: The whole Mediterranean angle makes serving anchovies sophisticated and even sexy these days. Olives, baguette, olive oil, salt, maybe some cheese and... anchovy! It's a panty peeler! I happen to like the things, but as best as I can tell women figure that eating something you don't enjoy in the name of emulating Europeans is the zenith of Mount Classy. It's a win-win.

This was all kinds of funny. Wifey would spit it out... literally. Not exactly the zenith at that point. Yes, I do well in the kitchen and in my former life (as a single male in university addicted to FoodTV) I would gladly have made plenty of that little snack, but cooking for two only means twice as many dislikes (okay, about 50 times as many with her)

[confuzzl3don3]

Regarding the other guy's question about the amount of EPA/DHA per capsule, I dunno where you're shopping (or maybe Dastardly is right and you are looking at TABLETS instead of CAPSULES), but in my experience, the ratio of O3's to capsule weight/size varies widely from brand to brand. Basically, higher quality fish oil is going to have more O3's per unit weight, and the better the oil the higher the ratio. You might also find that even though one kind is cheaper per bottle, by the time you get a decent amount of O3's by taking 20 of the capsules, you're not getting such a good deal vs. a more expensive per bottle, but higher potency, capsule.

Nope definitely capsules. There are such a thing as fish oil tablets?? I'm interested in knowing whether 1 capsule over there in the US or Europe or whatever only contained 1g of fish oil. Because over here in Australia 1 capsule = 1g of fish oil = 300mg of omega-3s.

[Patrick]

Nope definitely capsules. There are such a thing as fish oil tablets?? I'm interested in knowing whether 1 capsule over there in the US or Europe or whatever only contained 1g of fish oil. Because over here in Australia 1 capsule = 1g of fish oil = 300mg of omega-3s.

It's about the same in the US.

[confuzzl3don3]

How the heck are you meant to get like 10 grams of omega-3s daily. Take like a billion capsules? Isn't that so impractical.

[Sami]

Yeah, most caps are 300mg. I take liquid, and 1 tablespoon (10ml) is 1.4 grams of EPA/DHA. I usually take about 3 or 4 table spoons over a day.

[Wayne Riddle]

Yeah, most caps are 300mg. I take liquid, and 1 tablespoon (10ml) is 1.4 grams of EPA/DHA. I usually take about 3 or 4 table spoons over a day.

Shop around, easy to find them in the 600-700mg range per capsule. I believe someone evens makes one around 900mg per capsule.

[Sami]

The liquid I've got is the cheapest per g of EPA/DHA I can find in the UK. A 500ml bottle costs £7.50 here. That's 137.5g per bottle, so about 5p per gram of EPA/DHA.

[confuzzl3don3]

Hmm i should definitely look around from some fish oil instead of capsules. Does cod liver fish oil have a better (cheaper) grams of omega3 to cost ratio?

[Patrick]

How the heck are you meant to get like 10 grams of omega-3s daily. Take like a billion capsules? Isn't that so impractical.

It's a massive load of pills. That's why I was saying earlier that it's highly unlikely that someone would take too much fish oil -- you've had to really set out to demolish a bottle or something.

[Dastardly]

Hmm i should definitely look around from some fish oil instead of capsules. Does cod liver fish oil have a better (cheaper) grams of omega3 to cost ratio?

Yes. There is nothing inferior about it either. Somepeople are worried about concentrated water pollutants in a fish liver. But modern oils are heavily filtered.

And I doubt it has any more pollutants as.. say, air pollution or heavy metals in our protein powder.

[confuzzl3don3]

Cool. I've always wondered though, why do they recommend to take the capsules with a meal. What difference would it make taking the capsules with a meal rather than without?

[Dastardly]

Capsules with meal is probably just to ensure that it gets both into your stomach, and properly digested. I guess its possible that a capsule/pill could pass through your stomach without even breaking down.

I wouldnt sweat it. None of us ever have a truly empty stomach do we?

[Carlos Daniel]

Capsules with meal is probably just to ensure that it gets both into your stomach, and properly digested. I guess its possible that a capsule/pill could pass through your stomach without even breaking down.

I wouldnt sweat it. None of us ever have a truly empty stomach do we?

Do you know that they have enteric coated fish oil caps, that are designed to pass through the stomach inctact?

You don't digest fat in your stomach, it pretty much begins in the duodenum.

[Patrick]

Some people still suggest fish oil over cod liver oil. Check out Robb Wolf's podcast if you're interested in his (admittedly paleo) take on the topic: http://robbwolf.com/2010/05/18/the-paleolithic-solution-episode-28/. I imagine it's a question of second-order importance and that getting the oils themselves is better. It might throw your vitamin absorption out of whack, though.

Also, you can take all your fish oil at one time if you want to. The only time you don't want to take it all at once is if you're having liver problems. As Carlos mentioned, fat isn't actually taken in through the stomach. Fats have to be accompanied by bile salts to get from your gut to your innards where they can then he oxidized or whatever their fate is. So it's a pro-tip: you're drinking way, way too much if you poop and there's an oil slick on top of it cause it means your liver is fucked.

[Sami]

I'd probably not take them post workout at all. You want that natural inflammation to happen post work out, and the anti-inflammatory effects of fish oil might hinder something.

I don't actually know how significant that is, might not make any difference whatsoever. I don't know if anyone's studied that. And I'd at least have to start looking at what happens when lifters take some other kinda anti-inflammatory PWO. I think that has been done before though.

[tertius]

Cool. I've always wondered though, why do they recommend to take the capsules with a meal. What difference would it make taking the capsules with a meal rather than without?

Probably because without a more substantial load of material delivered to the stomach, there's no signal to your gall-bladder to pump bile into the intestine, and thus a deficit of enzymes to break down the oil.

I could also be full of shit, and it's just standard industry practice to take everything with food, regardless.

[confuzzl3don3]

Awsome stuff guys. I've been taking them with meals anyways, I've just been curious as to why. About the cod liver oil throwing vitamin absorption out of whack, why's that? All i know about cod liver oil is that it's high in Vit A right?

[Patrick]

I'd probably not take them post workout at all. You want that natural inflammation to happen post work out, and the anti-inflammatory effects of fish oil might hinder something.

I don't actually know how significant that is, might not make any difference whatsoever. I don't know if anyone's studied that. And I'd at least have to start looking at what happens when lifters take some other kinda anti-inflammatory PWO. I think that has been done before though.

I agree that you shouldn't take them (immediately) post workout, mostly because if you buy into the notion of macronutrient partitioning then you probably avoid fat PWO... you'll notice John recommends mixing whey with water or soda rather than milk for PWO meals and I am fairly certain it's for that reason though I could be wrong.

But I don't think its anti-inflammatory effect is acute enough to be the cause. I don't know that to be true as a factual question, but I do know that its half-life in the body of an athlete is on the scale of days -- meaning, you get it in there and it sticks around. (That's why you can take it all at once or spread out; it doesn't matter cause it's around for a while after you take it so you won't 'run out' like you do the effect of something like Advil.) But IMO, if post-workout works best for you then I'd do it.

[simonsky]

i've read from an article in elite some time ago that you take em about 2-4 hrs PPWO meal. (post-post workout meal). the reasoning is that it will be digested first rather than the meal.

[confuzzl3don3]

So taking fish oil 2-4 hours after your PWO meal would be digested before the POW meal you ate 2-4 hours ago? Why would that be the case and what benefit would that yield?

[Sami]

I agree that you shouldn't take them (immediately) post workout, mostly because if you buy into the notion of macronutrient partitioning then you probably avoid fat PWO... you'll notice John recommends mixing whey with water or soda rather than milk for PWO meals and I am fairly certain it's for that reason though I could be wrong.

But I don't think its anti-inflammatory effect is acute enough to be the cause. I don't know that to be true as a factual question, but I do know that its half-life in the body of an athlete is on the scale of days -- meaning, you get it in there and it sticks around. (That's why you can take it all at once or spread out; it doesn't matter cause it's around for a while after you take it so you won't 'run out' like you do the effect of something like Advil.) But IMO, if post-workout works best for you then I'd do it.

I don't.

And I suspected it might not make much difference in such an acute episode, but was just thinking aloud. The FAs are meant to be taken up into the cell membranes, but I'm not sure (haven't looked it up) how fish oil gives it's anti-inflammatory properties. Is it the cellular membrane bound FAs that give it? Or the immediate circulating lipids? Have I even got me lipid physiology straight (probably not)?

Either way, I don't in anyway think it's a serious or significant factor. There are certainly far more important things to worry about. Just thinking aloud I guess.

[Patrick]

I don't.

And I suspected it might not make much difference in such an acute episode, but was just thinking aloud. The FAs are meant to be taken up into the cell membranes, but I'm not sure (haven't looked it up) how fish oil gives it's anti-inflammatory properties. Is it the cellular membrane bound FAs that give it? Or the immediate circulating lipids? Have I even got me lipid physiology straight (probably not)?

Either way, I don't in anyway think it's a serious or significant factor. There are certainly far more important things to worry about. Just thinking aloud I guess.

I'm not sure how much stock I put into the whole macronutrient partitioning thing either, but it's so ubiquitous to eat carbs and protein as a PWO meal that I just follow it because people tend to shed what doesn't work. There are also some technical explanations involving insulin that seem to make some sense.

And as far as I understand, the lipids that are involved in the inflammation process are not membrane bound, at least in the sense that it's commonly used. The simplest explanation that I think is both true and understandable is that the hormone-like molecules that are associated with the occurance of inflammation are (prostaglandins, and leukotrienes) are primarily composed of omega 6 fatty acids while the resolution of inflammation is associated with a class of compounds (resolvins, protectins, and omega-3-oxylipins) that are made from omega 3 fatty acids. They're not exactly hormones but they generally serve as signalling molecules in the same way that hormones do... they're more like local hormones. If you're familiar with basic chemistry, think of omega 3's as the rate limiting reagent -- with a high enough serum concentration you don't have to wait around forever waiting to accumulate enough omega 3 to turn off the inflammatory process. Fish oil aims to supply those omega 3s to balance the omega 6s we're already getting plenty of.

So back to the question of inflammation and its role in training: you do get an inflammatory response from exercise when you're taking fish oil, and that's part of the super-compensation process. But you are simply able to resolve the inflammation after its benefit has been derived. The translation is a stress stimulus that causes a recovery response that resolves in a timescale that limits how much needless soreness you go through.

[MEbigUsmall]

I use the liquid Carlsons, doesn't taste like fish and has been tested to be one of the top brands. I heard on super human radio a lot of brands tested positive for mercury and Carlsons was one of the ones that was the best. I buy it off Iherb and then use a shot glass to down it, I haven't decided on an steady amount, any suggestions?

[Patrick]

I just saw this article in Science, one of the big multi-disciplinary science journals in the US. The title is "How Fish Oil Fight Inflammation"... might be worth a read.

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/09/how-fish-oil-fights-inflammation.html

[LimieJosh]

FAO Americans

GNC's have launched a "Triple Strengh" Fish Oil gel cap that contains 0.9g of Omega 3s per 1g cap. As such they look to be discontinuing the regular version (0.3g per 1 gram). However, this new triple strength version only has one third of the number of capsules in the bottle (in otherwords the same total amount of omega 3s), yet is twice the price.

If you dont mind going through 15 capsules a day, it might be worth going into your local GNC and cleaning house like I did yesterday.

[kal-el]

Not sure if the Aussie guys are still looking for some decent priced quality liquid fish oil, but try this, http://www.cityhealth.com.au/onlineshop/shopexd.asp?id=9910&bc=no

I havent used it before but I have used other melrose stuff, bought from that shop, quality and fast delivery. Ill be buying it when my tablets run out.

[confuzzl3don3]

^ i took a look at that site, but i was wondering why they keep pushing the fact that it doesn't have vit A, and unlike cod liver fish oil it doesn't have Vit A and D. Is it that easy to overdoes with vit A and D taking cod liver fish oil because cod liver oil is a fair bit cheaper

[Wayne Riddle]

^ i took a look at that site, but i was wondering why they keep pushing the fact that it doesn't have vit A, and unlike cod liver fish oil it doesn't have Vit A and D. Is it that easy to overdoes with vit A and D taking cod liver fish oil because cod liver oil is a fair bit cheaper

If taking large doses then there is a concern with vitamin A. Several research papers out there on the topic.

If not mega-dosing the fish oil and taking a vitamin D supplement as the majority of Cod Liver Oil provides a poor amount of vitamin D then you should be okay.

[confuzzl3don3]

What constitutes as a 'mega-dose'? I'm not going to be drinking it by the glass, but it works out cheaper and is more convenient than taking capsules

[Wayne Riddle]

What constitutes as a 'mega-dose'? I'm not going to be drinking it by the glass, but it works out cheaper and is more convenient than taking capsules

Following the advice on the bottle = regular dosing. Doing something like .5-1 gram of EPA/DHA per 10 pounds of body weight = mega dosing. The best price I've seen on liquid fish oil is Nature's Answer, Liquid Omega-3, Deep Sea Fish Oil EPA/DHA, Natural Orange Flavor, 16 fl oz (http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Answer-Liquid-Omega-3-Deep-Sea-Fish-Oil-EPA-DHA-Natural-Orange-Flavor-16-fl-oz-480-ml/7908?at=0) . If you've never ordered from iHerb before you can use my referral code of QAZ657 and get $5 off your first order.

[Greg C]

Pills suck. Not economical, and who the hell wants to swallow enough of the damn things to get a decent amount of EPA/DHA? I've been using this (http://www.vitacost.com/Carlson-The-Very-Finest-Liquid-Fish-Oil) from VitaCost for about 6 months. Cost is very reasonable, and it actually tastes pretty lemony, not fishy at all. Took about 2 weeks until the burps stopped, but really wasn't a big deal. Bottle lasts me a month. They also have cod liver oil for a similar price if that's your thing.

[Patrick]

Following the advice on the bottle = regular dosing. Doing something like .5-1 gram of EPA/DHA per 10 pounds of body weight = mega dosing.

C'mon Wayne, do you really think like this? You don't eat according to the side panel on a box of Triscuits and you shouldn't follow the side panel on your fish oil. Just cause it's written doesn't make it so.

As to the Cod/Fish oil question, I'm throwing it to Robb Wolf who, in typical fashion, answers it better than pretty much anyone else: http://robbwolf.com/2010/06/02/vitamins-a-d-and-k-who-cares/

[Wayne Riddle]

C'mon Wayne, do you really think like this? You don't eat according to the side panel on a box of Triscuits and you shouldn't follow the side panel on your fish oil. Just cause it's written doesn't make it so.

Without knowing the specifics of the fish oil being used it is the safest thing to say. I know how much EPA/DHA I take during the day, how much fish oil that translates to varies wildly from brand to brand.

As to the Cod/Fish oil question, I'm throwing it to Robb Wolf who, in typical fashion, answers it better than pretty much anyone else: http://robbwolf.com/2010/06/02/vitamins-a-d-and-k-who-cares/[/QUOTE]

Robb summed it best, and I agree with his statement of "It depends." Err on the side of caution when the science is undecided on a subject, like it is with cod liver oil and vitamin a/d. But my general advice, which I should have offered here, is go out, read the research papers, do some thinking, and make your own decision. Evaluate this decision with how you look, feel, and perform.

[Age_of_Aquarius]

no.

[Age_of_Aquarius]

no.

[happyfred]

Hmm i should definitely look around from some fish oil instead of capsules. Does cod liver fish oil have a better (cheaper) grams of omega3 to cost ratio?

I live in Australia and I take the Melrose liquid fish oil. It's available pretty much everywhere. They add a slight lemon flavour to it so it's easy to swig down several tablespoons with a meal.

[confuzzl3don3]

Stick to cold-pressed Parent EFA's (both omega 3 and 6).

Derivative fatty acids like CLA and those found in fish oil are of minimal bnefit to the body. Unlike ALA, EPA and DHA have very few functions in the body, hence why only very small amounts of ALA in the body is broken down into those 2 derivatives.

Plant oils are better. They're more beneficial nutritionally.

Unlike fish oil, there are also no risks of consuming dangerous pollutants like dioxins and heavy metals.

Why risk exposing yourself to the potentially fatal consequences of industrial chemicals such as phthalates, alkylphenols, herbicides, insecticides and fungicides, as well as the gender-bending carcinogens - PCBs and dioxins. They do not degrade and so can accumulate in body tissues to cause larger, more damaging effects over time.

I don't know where you seem to have gotten the idea that EPA and DHA are not beneficial to the human body. Just because something has very few functions it does not make it non-essential. Please go drink your onion juice

[Wayne Riddle]

Derivative fatty acids like CLA and those found in fish oil are of minimal bnefit to the body.

Do you have a source for this?

[Wayne Riddle]

It's up to you I suppose.. You can take safe, plant-based omega-3 or you can fork out more money, for relatively fewer health benefits and a nice big dose of Industrial waste. Side effects may include cancer, impotence, nerve damage, brain damage and death.

Again, you have a source for this?

[48Dodge]

Again, you have a source for this?

The stars told him all he needed to know

[rpbrown]

Does anyone else exhibit a mild (or serious) allergic reaction to the enteric coated fish oil capsules? I bought two bottles at RiteAid buy one get one free, had one capsule with a meal and got itchy in random places for a few hours, then some unpleasant #2. Returned em a few weeks later (didn't use anymore capsules in that time). I may try flax seed, instead.

[48Dodge]

I bought the buy one get one free enteric coated from Walmart. No issues here. I've been taking between 10-20 a day.

[Patrick]

I just went to CVS and got four bottles of the 2 for 1 store brand. No problems here, either. And I've always taken the enteric coated caps without issue.

Do you get the same reaction from NyQuil or other gel caps you've taken? Also, what size of a dose did you take? Sometimes when your digestion isn't going tip-top, you don't have enough bile salts to incorporate the fats so you get oily shits with a large dietary fat bolus passing through. Did your dook look like the Gulf coast post-BP?

[freeheeljohnny]

@ AoA

"Conversion of ALA by the body to the more active longer-chain metabolites is inefficient: < 5–10% for EPA and 2–5% for DHA. Thus, total n-3 requirements may be higher for vegetarians than for nonvegetarians, as vegetarians must rely on conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA. Because of the beneficial effects of n-3 fatty acids, it is recommended that vegetarians make dietary changes to optimize n-3 fatty acid status." (Davis and Kris-Etherton American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 78, No. 3, 640S-646S, September 2003; http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/78/3/640S)

"The parent fatty acid ALA (18:3n-3), found in vegetable oils such as flaxseed or rapeseed oil, is used by the human organism partly as a source of energy, partly as a precursor of the metabolites, but the degree of conversion appears to be unreliable and restricted. More specifically, most studies in humans have shown that whereas a certain, though restricted, conversion of high doses of ALA to EPA occurs, conversion to DHA is severely restrict-ed. The use of ALA labelled with radioisotopes suggested that with a background diet high in saturated fat conversion to long-chain metabolites is ~6% for EPA and 3.8% for DHA."
(Helga Gerster, International Journal for Vitamin and Nutrition Research, 3/1998; http://verlag.hanshuber.com/Zeitschriften/IJVNR/98/vn9803.html)

Plant oils are NOT better!

No dangerous pollutants in plant oils - WTF ? The pollutants started out on the land, they're often applied to crops, they're minimally soluble in water, where do you think they will be found ? Less astrology, more science. That's my advice.

[rpbrown]

. Edit: included quote below that was referenced by my statements.

[rpbrown]

I just went to CVS and got four bottles of the 2 for 1 store brand. No problems here, either. And I've always taken the enteric coated caps without issue.

Do you get the same reaction from NyQuil or other gel caps you've taken? Also, what size of a dose did you take? Sometimes when your digestion isn't going tip-top, you don't have enough bile salts to incorporate the fats so you get oily shits with a large dietary fat bolus passing through. Did your dook look like the Gulf coast post-BP?

Not really to the last question. I had one capsule. The bottle came with around 150-200 caps, can't remember the brand but the bottle was green with a white label. I might be allergic to shellfish or a particular fish that is used for these capsules, but who knows. I could get an allergy test in the future to find out. I drink half of a gallon of milk everyday, which has plenty of fat (in addition to whatever food I eat) and my movements don't look like an oil slick!

[Patrick]

Not really to the last question. I had one capsule. The bottle came with around 150-200 caps, can't remember the brand but the bottle was green with a white label. I might be allergic to shellfish or a particular fish that is used for these capsules, but who knows. I could get an allergy test in the future to find out. I drink half of a gallon of milk everyday, which has plenty of fat (in addition to whatever food I eat) and my movements don't look like an oil slick!

Yeah, so that's definitely not it. Try eating one of the caps on an empty stomach sometime and see what happens. Depending on the size of the pill I've taken 15 of these things at a time on an empty stomach to no ill effect... if you're reacting that strongly to one it's gotta be pretty gnarly.

[Black_Spit]

I bought the buy one get one free enteric coated from Walmart. No issues here. I've been taking between 10-20 a day.

You could save yourself a lot of trouble and just take a tablespoon or two of cod liver oil. Cheap, effective, very high dosed compared to a pill. About a gram if EPA/DHA per tsp. Personally I take a tbsp, and give my kids a tsp.

Rpbrown, try the omega 3 fortified eggs. Look for the ones with 660 mg of omega 3 per egg. The chickens are fed a combo of fish and flax to achieve that. I eat 6 every day with breakfast. Watch out for most other brands, either they only have 110 mg's/only use veg. oils depending on the brand.

[48Dodge]

You could save yourself a lot of trouble and just take a tablespoon or two of cod liver oil. Cheap, effective, very high dosed compared to a pill. About a gram if EPA/DHA per tsp. Personally I take a tbsp, and give my kids a tsp.

Rpbrown, try the omega 3 fortified eggs. Look for the ones with 660 mg of omega 3 per egg. The chickens are fed a combo of fish and flax to achieve that. I eat 6 every day with breakfast. Watch out for most other brands, either they only have 110 mg's/only use veg. oils depending on the brand.

I bought these bottles when I thought 2-3 caps was a good daily dose. After doing research I realized I needed much more (~10X more). After I'm done with these bottles, I'll look at different pills/oils.

[rpbrown]

Rpbrown, try the omega 3 fortified eggs. Look for the ones with 660 mg of omega 3 per egg. The chickens are fed a combo of fish and flax to achieve that. I eat 6 every day with breakfast. Watch out for most other brands, either they only have 110 mg's/only use veg. oils depending on the brand.

I should mention that I live on a graduate student stipend. Buying the Eggland's Best omega 3 eggs is "pricey" enough as it is, at 18 eggs for $3.49. How much are your omega 3 eggs eggs? I usually have 4-5 scrambled eggs as part of breakfast.

[confuzzl3don3]

I personally don't think it's worth it to get the special omega-3 eggs. It works out cheaper to get fish oil (liquid or capsules). About your allergic reaction thing, i found i had a similar problem with one of the brands (a cheap generic one if i remember correctly) i was taking. I didn't have it as bad as you, but i got these little red, itchy papules forming on my skin several days after taking them continuously. They went away once i stopped taking them. I thought it was something else so i tried them again after a week or two and the same thing happened. I stopped taking them completely. Fastforward a month and since i didn't want to them to go to waste i tried them again but this time just chewing the capsule to get the fish oil out and then spitting out the capsule. The skin reaction hasn't come back since. So i inferred that i too, like you, was probably allergic to the actual capsule. It was only for that cheap generic brand though. Maybe you could try that too.

[Patrick]

IMO, I'd forget special eggs, too. Fish oil or even cod liver oil is going to be cheaper omega 3 source on a $/g basis. Also, and I know this is a little geeky, but one fact to keep in mind when shopping for eggs and other things that are branded as omega 3 fortified... not all omega 3's are created equal. The DHA and EPA are particularly what we're after here. Lots of foods and even some supplements say "1 g omega 3's" but contain less than that in DHA/EPA and so while you get 1g of omega 3's, it's not the 1g that you might be looking for. I stick to fish oil caps that clearly label DHA and EPA content and pretty much forget about omega fortified stuff after that, and consider that in my fish oil dosing. After all, each of us is looking to optimize nutrition to our individual goals and still maintain decent health -- getting big and strong without being a sloppy, slovenly fuck with awful blood pressure, for instance -- and we're all constrained by some extent to our budget. You eat corn fed meats because they're cheap and provide good protein and you take fish oil because that meat wasn't raised on grass. The trade off comes to cents per day getting your DHA/EPA through fish oil. Grass-fed meats would be great but they're more expensive and that might mean cutting out money that could be spent on other things... which is not great news for someone on a grad student stipend.

[confuzzl3don3]

Just to add onto what Patrick has said, a lot of these so called omega-3 products for example you hear the omega-3 margarine and stuff, is actually mainly ALA which requires your body to actually convert it to DHA and EPA. Your body can't convert ALA to EPA or DHA that efficiently (check out freeheeljohnny's post and there are lots of studies on this as well) so technically the products do have omega-3s but not the EPA and DHA which we are after. That's were fish oil comes in.

[MEbigUsmall]

I might have asked this already but not sure because I don't know how to check for my own posts on here. I was curious how much is too much fish oil. I am often very tired or nervous and vitamins D gives me this weird agitated/fatigued issue that I have told can be balanced out by the inflammatory blunting effects of fish oil. I use carillons liquid and usually take it all in one shot but could split it into two if need be. Is we were talking in ML's how much would be too much. I have taken 20-30 mls a day before.

[Wayne Riddle]

I might have asked this already but not sure because I don't know how to check for my own posts on here. I was curious how much is too much fish oil. I am often very tired or nervous and vitamins D gives me this weird agitated/fatigued issue that I have told can be balanced out by the inflammatory blunting effects of fish oil. I use carillons liquid and usually take it all in one shot but could split it into two if need be. Is we were talking in ML's how much would be too much. I have taken 20-30 mls a day before.

Problem with talking in nL's or number or pilss is it varies with the brand. I would say for the majority of liquid fish oils I've seen out there taking 20-30 mL's a day should not be an issue. Taking too much fish oil usually shows up the same was as too much magnesium, loose stools.

What brand and how much vitamin D were you taking?

[Patrick]

I might have asked this already but not sure because I don't know how to check for my own posts on here. I was curious how much is too much fish oil. I am often very tired or nervous and vitamins D gives me this weird agitated/fatigued issue that I have told can be balanced out by the inflammatory blunting effects of fish oil. I use carillons liquid and usually take it all in one shot but could split it into two if need be. Is we were talking in ML's how much would be too much. I have taken 20-30 mls a day before.

There are several factors that go in to how much is "too much". There are really two noticeable side effects from taking "too much" fish oil. First is that you'll have loose stoole, like Wayne said, and second is that your blood will be a little too thin. This isn't a huge deal unless you're getting wounded and bleeding all the time, in which case you won't clot as well. I don't think that's a huge deal for most people save soldiers. With that said, it's pretty difficult to go overboard with fish oil. It's essentially just dietary fat and not some magic potion, so the downside is akin to what you would get from eating too much fatty food -- a burger with fries and a shake pack far more fat than any fish oil dose will and that hasn't killed you (yet).

Because of its anti-inflammatory qualities, lots of people suggest large dosages of fish oil. I am convinced that they help me personally, and I took 15 caps this morning with breakfast. Here's a website that will help you get an idea of the dosages that fish oil advocates suggest: http://whole9life.com/fish-oil/ You basically plug in your weight, the dosage information specific to your brand (DHA and EPA per serving) and some multiplier that gauges how much inflammation you need to offset from your normal diet and lifestyle. Now, of course, you don't have to take this much. I would but that's me. However, it should be a useful indicator of how much you can take without without noting any ill effects. You could probably take more, it's just that the health benefit would reach diminishing returns.

Also, just out of curiousity, how do you know that vitamin D makes you agitated/fatigued? I've never heard of that before.

[Sami]

IMO, I'd forget special eggs, too. Fish oil or even cod liver oil is going to be cheaper omega 3 source on a $/g basis. Also, and I know this is a little geeky, but one fact to keep in mind when shopping for eggs and other things that are branded as omega 3 fortified... not all omega 3's are created equal. The DHA and EPA are particularly what we're after here. Lots of foods and even some supplements say "1 g omega 3's" but contain less than that in DHA/EPA and so while you get 1g of omega 3's, it's not the 1g that you might be looking for. I stick to fish oil caps that clearly label DHA and EPA content and pretty much forget about omega fortified stuff after that, and consider that in my fish oil dosing. After all, each of us is looking to optimize nutrition to our individual goals and still maintain decent health -- getting big and strong without being a sloppy, slovenly fuck with awful blood pressure, for instance -- and we're all constrained by some extent to our budget. You eat corn fed meats because they're cheap and provide good protein and you take fish oil because that meat wasn't raised on grass. The trade off comes to cents per day getting your DHA/EPA through fish oil. Grass-fed meats would be great but they're more expensive and that might mean cutting out money that could be spent on other things... which is not great news for someone on a grad student stipend.

IIRC, I think the n-3 in the special eggs are epa/dha. They feed the chickens flax seeds, and they convert the ala to epa/dha for us. But it's still probably more economical supplementing as opposed to paying this premium.

And I'm not so convinced that there is a significant enough amount of PUFAs in meat to warrant worrying about spending the premium on grass-fed. Fine if you've got the money I guess, but again, I don't think it's anywhere near as economical as just supplementing. I don't get meat for the PUFAs; I get fish (and derivatives) for that.

[Evan]

I just ordered some Cod liver oil from iherb. I love this site. They have speedy shipping all around the world. Good prices too. I get all my supplements from them now. I picked up a couple of bottles to last me the winter.
http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Norwegian-Cod-Liver-Oil-Regular-Flavor-16-8-fl-oz-500-ml/7949?at=0

If you use the code KOR909 you can save $5 off your first purchase.