Testosterone levels

[Oldster]

I just got some results back from my clinic where I had blood drawn and some tests ran. Just your normal stuff along with a physical.

My brother found when he went in that he had low, VERY low testosterone levels. Normal is 280-800, his were 60. Wow! So, when I had my blood drawn I asked to have my testosterone level checked, just in case.

Well, I just got my results back. Mine were barely 200, not even up to the low end of the range and I'm to make an appointment asap to discuss my results. So I have some questions now.

First, anyone else find they have low testosterone? Even in my 50's, this seems unbelievably low.

Second, what are my options? My brother goes in for monthly shots and patches both, not sure what would happen in my range.

Third, if I were ever to compete, would this nullify anything I achieved? Right now my close grip bench press PR is around 420ish which would put me very high in my weight (242) and age (50-59) catagory.

And finally fourth, if I were put on a testosterone regiment, would my aches and pains from everyday life lessen?

Thanks,
An old feeling Oldster.

[Carlos Daniel]

I think Colowayno was thinking about getting on TRT. Maybe he can contribute.

If you were to compete, depends on the fed and how much test you take, I guess.

[ColoWayno]

My levels were at 208.
My doc started me on Clomid to wake "the boys" up about 8 weeks ago. I just had blood drawn today so I should know soon if it's working. It's cheap and painless to try, as in a pill every other day.
The next step, if this isn't working, will be HCG which is more expensive and is a shot you give yourself (using really small needles I think 2x per week). It's the same idea as the Clomid but works better for some people.
Basically, the Clomid binds with Estrogen receptors so that the brain thinks E levels are high and the feedback system triggers more T production.
Either way I would probably be disqualified from a tested meet... but I don't really know how those things work. Even if I was strong enough to compete I would work on getting my T levels up for quality of life issues.
I'm not 100% sure the Clomid is working but I will say my enjoyment of things I love (playing the piano, sex, etc) has improved noticeably. My tolerance for things that I don't enjoy but have to do anyway (like work) has improved as well (not quite as much unfortunately).
I haven't turned into the Hulk or anything but I've been losing weight to help me with some other issues so the jury is still out on whether I'll be stronger or not. Either way I think it's going to be worth it.

Oh, don't be surprised when you look up Clomid and find out it's main role is as a fertility drug for women. It's off label for our purposes.
Also, my doc told me that a lot of other doctors would just go directly to exogenous testosterone and not try this other stuff. The advantage to the other stuff is it preserves your natural function. If it doesn't work, I'll go with the exogenous T.
Good luck which ever way you decide to go.

[Carlos Daniel]

Actually, it makes the brain think there's not enough estrogen, so it bumps the production of LH, stimulating testosterone production by the testes.

It has just occurred to me that it would be easier to fail a doping test with clomid or HCG than with actual testosterone.

[ColoWayno]

Actually, it makes the brain think there's not enough estrogen, so it bumps the production of LH, stimulating testosterone production by the testes.

It has just occurred to me that it would be easier to fail a doping test with clomid or HCG than with actual testosterone.

I'm glad I'm not the doctor, I always get that confused. Yep, if I ever go to a meet it will be untested or I'll just be in it for the fun.

[Oldster]

Cripes, you guys are talking in Chinese to me. I don't know what all this stuff if, like LH or HCG.

But, maybe I'm starting to see what they are trying to do...........I think......... So what the trick is, FORCING the testes to produce more testosterone by 'tricking' them, not to add more testosterone to your body....right? I'll be darned, I didn't realize that.
I'll have to talk with my brother and see what they are doing for him, I know that in HIS case, his count was so low he was never able to have children. I remember him talking about a patch that he wore along with the injections and I am fairly certain that the patches were low doses of testosterone. Perhaps in his case his count was to low to do anything else?

When given extra testosterone, won't that make our 'boys' shrivel up like I always hear on the news? Wouldn't that be bad in the looooong run? Guys, I just don't know anything about drugs, never wanted to. I'm a big fearful at this point thinking that at some point I'll just have a couple of raisins floating around in my sack.

Thanks for the info, Carlos and ColoWayno.

[mstrofbass]

This is interesting:

http://www.mens-hormonal-health.com/normal-testosterone-levels-in-men.html

This thread made me do some quick research and think about going to get some blood work done again.

[Benver]

I think the shrivel up your boys is when you use a huge amount of Extern hormone so that your body stops totaly with its own hormone production and no longer need the boys, meens shrinking.

[hbriem]

Well, if you bench over 400 lbs and everything else is in working order, I see no reason to get any extra test.

If you are having problems related to low test levels, well that's a whole different story.

[Kostas]

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[Kostas]

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[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"bench press PR is around 420ish"

Damn

HRT under a doctor orders will not disqualify you for a meet unless he has you on a ridiculous dose.

[Mark E. Hurling]

I don't know what my levels are. I'm not sure I want to. It would be just one more thing to worry about, and between my blood pressure, cholesterol (still working the diet thing Jamie), and the pills for that stuff? Nah.

I've said this already, and it might have been Magnus Magnussen of World's Strongest Man renown who once said, "If you can squat and have good solid shits, what else do you need in life?" Not a bad philosophy, but he left at least one more important thing out. When that other important thing begins to degrade, then I'll develop an active interest. If you don't notice any significant diminishing quality of life, accept that we will all get older. Until we don't any more. Aging is a normal and natural process.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"Aging is a normal and natural process."

Fuck that.

[Mark E. Hurling]

"Aging is a normal and natural process."

Fuck that.

"Wyrd bi ∂ ful aræd" from the archaic Saxon, "Fate is inexorable" Uhtred of Bebbanburg. How's that for pulling a really geeky reference out of my ass, Jamie? And just think, Uthred and Magnus would have been next door neighbors.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

Where do you learn this stuff.

I don't believe in fate. I do believe I will some day die, but I have a fair amount of say about what happens between now and then.

[skills101]

I don't know what my levels are. I'm not sure I want to. It would be just one more thing to worry about, and between my blood pressure, cholesterol (still working the diet thing Jamie), and the pills for that stuff? Nah.

I've said this already, and it might have been Magnus Magnussen of World's Strongest Man renown who once said, "If you can squat and have good solid shits, what else do you need in life?" Not a bad philosophy, but he left at least one more important thing out. When that other important thing begins to degrade, then I'll develop an active interest. If you don't notice any significant diminishing quality of life, accept that we will all get older. Until we don't any more. Aging is a normal and natural process.

You contradict yourself when you say aging is normal and natural, but that you would seek out hormone therapy if you experience sexual dysfunction. Sexual dysfunction is a normal and natural by-product of lower testosterone levels, which is a normal and natural by-product of aging.

If it's youth, vigor, and health you seek, then therapeutic testosterone it will be.

Hey that almost rhymed.

[Carlos Daniel]

"Wyrd bi ∂ ful aræd" from the archaic Saxon, "Fate is inexorable" Uhtred of Bebbanburg. How's that for pulling a really geeky reference out of my ass, Jamie? And just think, Uthred and Magnus would have been next door neighbors.

Mark, you might be interested in this story. It's a tad long but I assure it's an interesting read.
http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html

[Mark E. Hurling]

Where do you learn this stuff.

I don't believe in fate. I do believe I will some day die, but I have a fair amount of say about what happens between now and then.

Heh, schwar Deutsche blut. Well, I don't believe that everything is predestined, a la John Calvin, inshallah, or The Adjustment Bureau but a few things besides death and taxes are inevitable. Shakespeare had it down pretty well I think with his seven ages of man soliloquy. Most of us may live longer than most of the Elizabethans could expect to, Ole' Will laid out a road map that still works. We all have freedom of will to choose to live each day and with good decisions (God willing) we can live to a ripe and vigorous age. Note, I didn't use the word "old" in that last statement.

[Mark E. Hurling]

You contradict yourself when you say aging is normal and natural, but that you would seek out hormone therapy if you experience sexual dysfunction. Sexual dysfunction is a normal and natural by-product of lower testosterone levels, which is a normal and natural by-product of aging.

If it's youth, vigor, and health you seek, then therapeutic testosterone it will be.

Hey that almost rhymed.

Yeah I probably did, but since I don't feel I have any issues of concern through a lack of detectable symptoms I figure what I don't know won't hurt or worry me. At least with respect to knowing my testosterone levels. Some other stuff like blood pressure, PSA's, etc. could result in an earlier demise than I might want. High blood pressure and strokes run in the men of my family and I watch that shit with some detailed attention.

[mstrofbass]

You contradict yourself when you say aging is normal and natural, but that you would seek out hormone therapy if you experience sexual dysfunction. Sexual dysfunction is a normal and natural by-product of lower testosterone levels, which is a normal and natural by-product of aging.

If it's youth, vigor, and health you seek, then therapeutic testosterone it will be.

Hey that almost rhymed.

Good point. Cancer is a fairly natural byproduct of aging. Why try to cure it?

[Oldster]

Whoa, lots of chat about this!

Family history is why I was tested, along for a host of other genetic problems. This isn't about weight lifting or muscle gain for me, instead is about a few health problems. Low Testosterone is something that would have never crossed my mind if it wasn't for my brother asking me questions. As far as I'm concerned I am strong enough. My main concern is to bring some of these problems to an end or at least reduce them and if low T is the problem, I'm all for it but am afraid of all the bad press I've read such as testicular cancer, prostate cancer and a host of other problems.

Man, everyone has put forth so much info that it is going to take a while to read through it and start to become somewhat educated on this whole situation.

My huge thanks to everyone who has participated in this. I have an appointment for tomorrow morning, I'll let you all know what I find out from the Doc.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Good point. Cancer is a fairly natural byproduct of aging. Why try to cure it?

I'm confused, are you bolstering skills point or are you pooh-poohing mine? Or both? I was always under the impression that incidence of cancer was not all that age related. I might be mistaken in this belief. You can't cure aging, you can forestall or cycle back some elements of it's inevitability (for a while), but the Reaper is always going to collect his due. Let me be clear, if you want to know this information and do something about it, have at it. I don't want to end up in a wheel chair or using a walker any more than the rest of you. I've just come to terms with myself on a whole host of matters that I know I have only a limited ability to do something about. I'll stick to the iron and other activities that are simultaneously preservative and potentially destructive in nature.

Hey wait! Maybe I can get someone to paint an oil portrait of me as a young man and keep it hidden out the sight of others. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Good luck at your session with the doc tomorrow Oldster. Please don't think that I have any judgmental attitude about this for anyone but myself.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"As far as I'm concerned I am strong enough"

I'm not sure what that phrase means.

"I'm all for it but am afraid of all the bad press I've read such as testicular cancer, prostate cancer and a host of other problems."
They are mostly bullshit. Prostate cancer is cause by too much estrogen so make sure you get an anti E along with your test.

Look up the health problems of low test as well.

[mstrofbass]

I'm confused, are you bolstering skills point or are you pooh-poohing mine? Or both? I was always under the impression that incidence of cancer was not all that age related. I might be mistaken in this belief. You can't cure aging, you can forestall or cycle back some elements of it's inevitability (for a while), but the Reaper is always going to collect his due. Let me be clear, if you want to know this information and do something about it, have at it. I don't want to end up in a wheel chair or using a walker any more than the rest of you. I've just come to terms with myself on a whole host of matters that I know I have only a limited ability to do something about. I'll stick to the iron and other activities that are simultaneously preservative and potentially destructive in nature.

Neither, I think it's ridiculous to say you were contradicting yourself.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Neither, I think it's ridiculous to say you were contradicting yourself.

Oh! Well I kind of thought that myself, but I'm trying to do my best these days not to have a geezer flashover just because they or I may not have understood the point that either was trying to make.

[Bean1871]

Oh! Well I kind of thought that myself, but I'm trying to do my best these days not to have a geezer flashover just because they or I may not have understood the point that either was trying to make.

Hey, Mark, this thread reminds me of something I read today:

In Zorba the Greek, Nikos Kazantzakis describes an encounter between his principle character and an old man busily at work planting a tree. “What is it that you are doing?” Zorba asks. The old man replies: “You can see very well what I am doing, my son, I’m planting a tree.” “But why plant a tree,” Zorba asks, “if you won’t be able to see it bear fruit?” And the old man answers: “I, my son, live as though I were never going to die.” The response brings a faint smile to Zorba’s lips and, as he walks away, he exclaims with a note of irony: “How strange — I live as though I were going to die tomorrow!”

Cheers,
Bill

[Oldster]

"As far as I'm concerned I am strong enough"

I'm not sure what that phrase means.

"I'm all for it but am afraid of all the bad press I've read such as testicular cancer, prostate cancer and a host of other problems."
They are mostly bullshit. Prostate cancer is cause by too much estrogen so make sure you get an anti E along with your test.

Look up the health problems of low test as well.
Well, I have squatted over 600, DL'ed over 600 and currently bench over 400. And I'm pushing 60.

That is an interesting thought about low T problems. I guess one has to balance them out against one another.

I know one thing. It would be absolutely awesome to have wood again in the morning when I woke up...............!

No problem, Mark. I understand COMPLETELY where you are coming from. I for one am one who doesn't even like to take an aspirin. Seriously. That is why the thought of low T is a little disconcerting.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

Stupid browser.

At the level pro athletes take, test will cause a problem. At theraputic levels (if your Dr. goes up to 400mg a week I'd be surprised) you will see a bunch of health markers get much better. Also, all those "grumpier old man" stereotypes are largely caused by low test

I get not wanting to depend on medication, but if something improves my life, you can't stop me from taking it.

I know a few people, all of whom were hard training types of guys, that didn't think they had an issue, Dr. put them on test and they never loved life so much. THey didn't think anything was wrong because they didn't know how good it could or had forgetten.

Try it for 2 months and if you don't like it, stop. Injections are better than the cream.

[ColoWayno]

Stupid browser.

At the level pro athletes take, test will cause a problem. At theraputic levels (if your Dr. goes up to 400mg a week I'd be surprised) you will see a bunch of health markers get much better. Also, all those "grumpier old man" stereotypes are largely caused by low test

I get not wanting to depend on medication, but if something improves my life, you can't stop me from taking it.

I know a few people, all of whom were hard training types of guys, that didn't think they had an issue, Dr. put them on test and they never loved life so much. THey didn't think anything was wrong because they didn't know how good it could or had forgetten.

Try it for 2 months and if you don't like it, stop. Injections are better than the cream.

I'm still waiting on my numbers to come back, but just the change it's made in how much I enjoy sitting down and playing the piano is amazing.
Either that, or the placebo effect is amazing.

[Oldster]

At the level pro athletes take, test will cause a problem. At theraputic levels (if your Dr. goes up to 400mg a week I'd be surprised) you will see a bunch of health markers get much better. Also, all those "grumpier old man" stereotypes are largely caused by low test

I get not wanting to depend on medication, but if something improves my life, you can't stop me from taking it.

I know a few people, all of whom were hard training types of guys, that didn't think they had an issue, Dr. put them on test and they never loved life so much. THey didn't think anything was wrong because they didn't know how good it could or had forgetten.

Try it for 2 months and if you don't like it, stop. Injections are better than the cream.
You make for some interesting thoughts, Jamie. I think you have encapsulated me exactly. Things went south so slowly it is tough to remember what it was like when things were good. If this is the route I take, I am looking forward to a little more enthusiasm toward life. I'd look forward to chasing my wife around the living room again with the intention of actually doing something should I catch her..... : )

You don't know how much I value what you've had to say so far. Until this thread I was only concerned about what a guy hears on the news about T. High cholesterol, heart disease, cancer, etc. You've given me some thoughts I hadn't considered before. Like the POSITIVES. One note about your thoughts of going up to 400mg, talking with my brother this morning, his Doc took him to 550 and he couldn't be happier with life and echo's much of what you have posted to date.


I'm still waiting on my numbers to come back, but just the change it's made in how much I enjoy sitting down and playing the piano is amazing.
Either that, or the placebo effect is amazing.
I can't wait to hear about your numbers. This kind of info has me excited! But my wife may be even more excited.........

I went to my appointment this morning. Low T just barely came up as I initially started these visits due to finding during a checkup that I have elevated liver enzymes. Today was my 4th donation to the local vampire. I was hopeful that I had finally figured it out and it may have been due to some exema cream I use (triamcinolone) but was told that probably wasn't it. Drat. The only drug I use. So now I am being screened for Hep B&C. I drink very little, no IV drug use, don't chase tail nor allow anything up my 'tail' so they are thinking perhaps I may have contracted a hepatitis from a restaurant or something. So he wants to stay focused on this problem as it could end up being very serious if not stopped.

But what he DID say about my low T is that he would start me on testosterone. His preference were injections since it is cheapest and works the best. But he wants to put it off until we solve my first problem. I have no problem with that as it allows me more time to actually consider this and think through the ramifications and do my research.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Getting hepatitis from a restaurant is not as unusual as it might sound at first remove. All it takes is anyone in the food chain of that restaurant from waiter, to cook and maybe even a dish washer to fail to wash their hands after a trip to the head. Hope this goes well for you.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

You need to get estrogen, free test and total test. If you start getting emotional more easily, it's a sure sign of high estrogran, as is gynocmasty (bitch tits). You want to make sure free and estrogen are good (you may need to take an anit E like arimdex (get it from canadian pharmacies, it's much cheaper)), total doesn't mean as much as the first 2. Also, you will want to donate blood about twice a year.

Lets us know what you decide.

[Carlos Daniel]

I went to my appointment this morning. Low T just barely came up as I initially started these visits due to finding during a checkup that I have elevated liver enzymes. Today was my 4th donation to the local vampire. I was hopeful that I had finally figured it out and it may have been due to some exema cream I use (triamcinolone) but was told that probably wasn't it. Drat. The only drug I use. So now I am being screened for Hep B&C. I drink very little, no IV drug use, don't chase tail nor allow anything up my 'tail' so they are thinking perhaps I may have contracted a hepatitis from a restaurant or something. So he wants to stay focused on this problem as it could end up being very serious if not stopped.

But what he DID say about my low T is that he would start me on testosterone. His preference were injections since it is cheapest and works the best. But he wants to put it off until we solve my first problem. I have no problem with that as it allows me more time to actually consider this and think through the ramifications and do my research.

The other day we were discussing on Rip's Q&A that so called liver enzymes are present in muscle tissue as well, and I wouldn't be surprised if they found their way into the blood after a fair bit of exercise.

[cheesedips]

they sell clomid at walgreens???lol....

[ColoWayno]

they sell clomid at walgreens???lol....

You just need a script.

208 -> 551 after 8 weeks, by the way.

[ARD]

You just need a script.

208 -> 551 after 8 weeks, by the way.

More than doubled in 2 months! How long are you supposed to continue with clomid?

Did you notice any positive changes in the quality of life?

[Kostas]

If your total and free testosterone are low, but your estrogen levels are "optimal", (this is the case with me), then surely Clomid is not the answer, right?

[ColoWayno]

More than doubled in 2 months! How long are you supposed to continue with clomid?

Did you notice any positive changes in the quality of life?

Yep, pretty substantial improvement in mood, productiveness, enjoyment of things, etc.

[ColoWayno]

If your total and free testosterone are low, but your estrogen levels are "optimal", (this is the case with me), then surely Clomid is not the answer, right?

Sorry, I don't know the answer to this.

[ColoWayno]

I will say, that if you are a candidate for Clomid it is a pretty easy "pill to swallow". I take it on odd numbered days and the cost (to me) is about $20 bucks a month. I'm not sure what the insurance company gets billed.

[Tom Green]

Stupid browser.

At the level pro athletes take, test will cause a problem. At theraputic levels (if your Dr. goes up to 400mg a week I'd be surprised) you will see a bunch of health markers get much better. Also, all those "grumpier old man" stereotypes are largely caused by low test

I get not wanting to depend on medication, but if something improves my life, you can't stop me from taking it.

I know a few people, all of whom were hard training types of guys, that didn't think they had an issue, Dr. put them on test and they never loved life so much. THey didn't think anything was wrong because they didn't know how good it could or had forgetten.

Try it for 2 months and if you don't like it, stop. Injections are better than the cream.

Doctors prescribe that much???

[Tom Green]

You just need a script.

208 -> 551 after 8 weeks, by the way.

Testosterone readings can vary significantly from reading to reading anyway though. I've been tested as low as 400 and as high as 790. For a younger person, doctors generally won't order this on your bloodwork so you have to ask.

[ARD]

Yep, pretty substantial improvement in mood, productiveness, enjoyment of things, etc.

How about training? :)

[ColoWayno]

How about training? :)

It's a little hard to tell. I've lowered the volume of my program quite a bit to focus on conditioning and body comp. I will say that I think I'm more willing mentally to move a heavy weight. I've been trying to keep it heavy and that's been working pretty well even though I'm 10lbs lighter than I was.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

Tom,

Dr. normally prescribe above 200 mg/week but I knw a few people that have gone to 300.