Check this out (Tyranny in the Heartland)

[MarcH]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufKv-5t0t4E

Crazy shit! I hope there is some repercussions for their actions.

[tertius]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufKv-5t0t4E

Crazy shit! I hope their is some repercussions for their actions.

Aren't you aware that college students aren't citizens?
Things like this have been happening since the late 60s.
I'll grant you it's a bit odd this time because there wasn't really anything political going down.

Also, for the record, if you throw shit at cops, usually they don't take it so well.

[MarcH]

Just watched another vid with a kid stating "They're throwing beer bottles at the swat team". Wasn't aware of that was what started it. What kind of idiot throws beer bottles at SWAT team in full riot gear? Maybe merge this with the "when do you give up on society" thread.

Link to that vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y43UkfAe_bc&feature=watch_response_rev

[Mark E. Hurling]

Boy is this evocative! Macomb, IL located in an even sleepier part of IL than Little Egypt in the South. I estimate about 50 in that skirmish line clearing the crowd and a lot of repeated footage. Relatively few students in any college town pay taxes other than sales tax. They don't have jobs (as that "reporter" said), they don't own homes, and as such they don't get hot for property or income tax. There was very little footage of hand to hand by the cops and what there was didn't involve anything more than a tackle and subduing to cuff the bozos. As for the sound projectors, let me tell what the alternative to those are, some really serious use of blunt force trauma with the 3 foot riot batons those guys in the skirmish line were carrying. I've done that to people clearing a street and it isn't pretty. The frontal skirmish line is followed by a second line of EMT's and cops to collect the unconscious and treat them or haul them off to the clink, unless they require hospitalization. As bad as Bull Connor was in the misuse of fire hoses during the civil rights struggles of the 60's, they in my opinion are far better alternatives than beating on someone. There's just something about getting wet when your legs get knocked out from under you that is discouraging and takes a lot of the steam off the aggression.

I doubt the contributor had journalistic credentials, and in this day and age of ubiquitous videophones how does anyone tell who is one without some ID to verify it?

I've been on both sides of that skirmish line as a student at Southern Illinois University in the 60's and 70's and later as a cop, and this was in fact very mild stuff to what I've seen and done. MarcH, take a tip from MarkH, when you see that many cops equipped the way they were and they tell you disperse, they mean 10 minutes ago.

[MarcH]

Heh I'm with ya man. I tend to clear out of any place when shit starts getting dicey. As soon as I saw that first bottle thrown at the SWAT line I'd been getting the hell out of there, not prancing around shouting about the constitution.

I was disgusted at first, but then after watching all the other vids the students got what they asked for. Although not everyone deserved that.

[tertius]

Boy is this evocative! Macomb, IL located in an even sleepier part of IL than Little Egypt in the South. I estimate about 50 in that skirmish line clearing the crowd and a lot of repeated footage. Relatively few students in any college town pay taxes other than sales tax. They don't have jobs (as that "reporter" said), they don't own homes, and as such they don't get hot for property or income tax. There was very little footage of hand to hand by the cops and what there was didn't involve anything more than a tackle and subduing to cuff the bozos. As for the sound projectors, let me tell what the alternative to those are, some really serious use of blunt force trauma with the 3 foot riot batons those guys in the skirmish line were carrying. I've done that to people clearing a street and it isn't pretty. The frontal skirmish line is followed by a second line of EMT's and cops to collect the unconscious and treat them or haul them off to the clink, unless they require hospitalization. As bad as Bull Connor was in the misuse of fire hoses during the civil rights struggles of the 60's, they in my opinion are far better alternatives than beating on someone. There's just something about getting wet when your legs get knocked out from under you that is discouraging and takes a lot of the steam off the aggression.

I doubt the contributor had journalistic credentials, and in this day and age of ubiquitous videophones how does anyone tell who is one without some ID to verify it?

I've been on both sides of that skirmish line as a student at Southern Illinois University in the 60's and 70's and later as a cop, and this was in fact very mild stuff to what I've seen and done. MarcH, take a tip from MarkH, when you see that many cops equipped the way they were and they tell you disperse, they mean 10 minutes ago.

Eh, in my experience most students can be a bunch of entitled jerks, but many do work, pay taxes, vote, pay rent to landlords (who in turn pay property taxes) and otherwise dump lots of money into communities. Many of the towns that get pissed off about college students depend on them.

Also, I think Marc, your u-turn is a bit humorous. "Tyranny!!" to "Oh, well, they had it coming."

[Mark E. Hurling]

That's the trouble, when the mob does what it does it seems like the least deserving are always the ones who get hurt. It's the reverse of what happens when a drunk driver gets in an accident. They stagger away largely uninjured when everyone else in the driver's vehicle and any other vehicle involved are hospitalized or dead. Stay away from crowds of any kind at every opportunity. The only good things that come from people en masse on a routine basis happen in a religious setting. Sometimes not even then with the wrong cleric talking to them.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Eh, in my experience most students can be a bunch of entitled jerks, but many do work, pay taxes, vote, pay rent to landlords (who in turn pay property taxes) and otherwise dump lots of money into communities. Many of the towns that get pissed off about college students depend on them.

Some do yes. But very are few undergrads who comprise the vast majority of the student population. Most are a much smaller subset of grad students. Oh I understand the local town's sentiment, it was the same way in Carbondale. The money they dump in the local economy is significant and boost the local economy considerably. But I was responding to the"reporter's" assertion that WIU students are all taxpayers. Nonesense. They don't really have to write that damn check to the state for property tax or income tax by and large. When you have to do that, you really feel it.

[MarcH]

Also, I think Marc, your u-turn is a bit humorous. "Tyranny!!" to "Oh, well, they had it coming."

The "tyranny in the heartland" was the headline that first video used. I don't think my u-turn is humorous though, I posted the first vid after only watching it and it was obviously biased. Now that I see the whole picture I think differently. Maybe I just jumped the gun making this thread without all the facts, but its the internet so thats allowed right? :)

[Mark E. Hurling]

The "tyranny in the heartland" was the headline that first video used. I don't think my u-turn is humorous though, I posted the first vid after only watching it and it was obviously biased. Now that I see the whole picture I think differently. Maybe I just jumped the gun making this thread without all the facts, but its the internet so thats allowed right? :)

Hell, if I had a nickel for everything I made a hair trigger response to I'd be able to retire now instead of 6 years from now.

[KAG]

At least you saw this for what it really is MarcH. It's refreshing when someone can see both sides and admit they were misinformed. Most people, especially those with an anti-officer bias can't.

Considering the damage it appears the students did to the block and private property, I'd say they got off easy. Throwing things at the officers, setting fires, and trashing other people's property tends to piss off the police.

It's real simple, officer presence is the first warning to people that they should obey the law. And a mass gathering of officers should make you think "maybe this is a bad idea". A verbal warning is the second. When they actually have to take action, well you've already shown them twice that you have no regard for the law, so strike 3 and you're out.

It's funny to hear about people whining about their Constitutional rights against arrest and to assemble, when they're destroying property and assaulting the officers. It's funny how quickly people forget that it's the right to PEACEABLY assemble.

[51M0n]

Stay away from crowds of any kind at every opportunity.

Always wise to remember that a mob is only as smart as it's dumbest member.

[Carnivroar]

Welcome to the Policed States of America.

[Callador]

A similar thing happened in Madison, WI a couple of years ago during the Halloween party they have downtown. The whole area was horribly packed, and once I saw the police start to show up... I left! I was with some friends, and I told them we should get upwind of the action. About 5 minutes later, they were lobbing pepper spray canisters into the crowds etc. To their defense, the crowd was getting wild. Apparently a couple of people had smashed out some store front windows, so they really did have to clear the people out of there.

I felt bad for one guy though. As we were leaving the area, a random guy walked up to a police officer to ask for directions I think. The police officer just threw him to the ground. Well, he actually pushed him back, and he bounced off me and fell to the ground. Another police officer that was standing next to him just gave me the "I'm sorry this other cop is an ass" look. He even said something like, "It isn't worth it" to me. I think he thought the guy was my friend or something. I do think some police officers take it too far, especially when someone from out of town is asking for directions, but the tactics they used downtown to disperse the crowd were probably needed. They probably had 100 police officers to the 10,000 people. Things could go bad real fast! I try to stay away from any sort of mobs.

[Mark E. Hurling]

The reason I cut my wrist and swore allegiance to the Blue Religion on a blood oath was because of what Callador described and what you saw at WIU, excpet I was at SIU in the 60's. When the shit goes into the wind with this kind of a scene even the police go nuts and in my callow youth I thought I would change the world and not do so. Ah, if only it were so. When mobs and crowds get everyone's blood up, our monkey brains take over. If you happen to be one of the better equipped monkeys charged with putting the other primate band down, you will do what ever flashes into your significantly narrowed consciousness to get that task done. No matter who gets hurt and how badly. You just have to live with what you can remember of it later.

[The Emancipated Freak]

Welcome to the Policed States of America.

Careful Carni, as a college student you're liable to be killed with that attitude.

[Carnivroar]

Careful Carni, as a college student you're liable to be killed with that attitude.

I'll be fine, the UN and Europe will send in their troops for humanitarian aid.... right?

[JM3]

At least you saw this for what it really is MarcH. It's refreshing when someone can see both sides and admit they were misinformed. Most people, especially those with an anti-officer bias can't.

Considering the damage it appears the students did to the block and private property, I'd say they got off easy. Throwing things at the officers, setting fires, and trashing other people's property tends to piss off the police.

It's real simple, officer presence is the first warning to people that they should obey the law. And a mass gathering of officers should make you think "maybe this is a bad idea". A verbal warning is the second. When they actually have to take action, well you've already shown them twice that you have no regard for the law, so strike 3 and you're out.

It's funny to hear about people whining about their Constitutional rights against arrest and to assemble, when they're destroying property and assaulting the officers. It's funny how quickly people forget that it's the right to PEACEABLY assemble.

this is what turned me off of that democracy now show host- every time I saw her getting arrested all I could empathize with were the police- even if I understood her veiwpoint. In most cases the cops were actually courteous- but her stories always made them out to be monstrous.

[The Emancipated Freak]

I'll be fine, the UN and Europe will send in their troops for humanitarian aid.... right?

It really depends on what you deem to be humanitarian aid.

[Mark E. Hurling]

this is what turned me off of that democracy now show host- every time I saw her getting arrested all I could empathize with were the police- even if I understood her veiwpoint. In most cases the cops were actually courteous- but her stories always made them out to be monstrous.

This is really pretty common. Now I'll be the last to say that some cops don't do some bad shit expecially when they think they aren't being watched or on some camera. But the "journalistic community" or whatever term you feel comfortable with has an inherent bias when describing what police do. That bias never redounds to the favor of the cops either. There's no context and pretense at trying understand what was actually happening. Bad guys with knives are a classic example. There is always the question or intimation raised, "Why shoot them they were 20 -30 feet away?" The answer is simple, people don't collapse or die on command just because they catch even multiple bullets. I hate to make this comparison, but many awarded the Medal of Honor sustained several wounds from long arms, automatic weapons, and even explosive armament and then go on to save others or take out the machine gun nest. This is even more true with handguns, and when you don't get stopped and drop you can close the 20-30 foot gap in less than 2 seconds and cut or kill the cop(s) even while they continue to fire. Life is not as simple as the Columbia School of Journalism would have it's graduates believe. Unless of course it's about the many nuances and shades of gray we should take into consideration when liberal sacred cow is involved. Then if you simplify you are a benighted black and whiter.

[The Emancipated Freak]

This is really pretty common. Now I'll be the last to say that some cops don't do some bad shit expecially when they think they aren't being watched or on some camera. But the "journalistic community" or whatever term you feel comfortable with has an inherent bias when describing what police do. That bias never redounds to the favor of the cops either. There's no context and pretense at trying understand what was actually happening. Bad guys with knives are a classic example. There is always the question or intimation raised, "Why shoot them they were 20 -30 feet away?" The answer is simple, people don't collapse or die on command just because they catch even multiple bullets. I hate to make this comparison, but many awarded the Medal of Honor sustained several wounds from long arms, automatic weapons, and even explosive armament and then go on to save others or take out the machine gun nest. This is even more true with handguns, and when you don't get stopped and drop you can close the 20-30 foot gap in less than 2 seconds and cut or kill the cop(s) even while they continue to fire. Life is not as simple as the Columbia School of Journalism would have it's graduates believe. Unless of course it's about the many nuances and shades of gray we should take into consideration when liberal sacred cow is involved. Then if you simplify you are a benighted black and whiter.

Lets not forget complaining that the bad guy only had a knife.

[bob g]

A similar thing happened in Madison, WI a couple of years ago during the Halloween party they have downtown. The whole area was horribly packed, and once I saw the police start to show up... I left! I was with some friends, and I told them we should get upwind of the action. About 5 minutes later, they were lobbing pepper spray canisters into the crowds etc. To their defense, the crowd was getting wild. Apparently a couple of people had smashed out some store front windows, so they really did have to clear the people out of there.

I felt bad for one guy though. As we were leaving the area, a random guy walked up to a police officer to ask for directions I think. The police officer just threw him to the ground. Well, he actually pushed him back, and he bounced off me and fell to the ground. Another police officer that was standing next to him just gave me the "I'm sorry this other cop is an ass" look. He even said something like, "It isn't worth it" to me. I think he thought the guy was my friend or something. I do think some police officers take it too far, especially when someone from out of town is asking for directions, but the tactics they used downtown to disperse the crowd were probably needed. They probably had 100 police officers to the 10,000 people. Things could go bad real fast! I try to stay away from any sort of mobs.

My daughter was there for that one. She heard the glass breaking and decided to call it a night. (For full disclosure, I also had my times on State Street on Halloween and once got to see a petite female officer put a slobs wrist up between his shoulder blades and tip toe him away from the traffic light he just ran over with his car. Her female partner, not much bigger, had the short end of her stick pressed against his throat. There were cheers.)

[bob g]

The reason I cut my wrist and swore allegiance to the Blue Religion on a blood oath was because of what Callador described and what you saw at WIU, excpet I was at SIU in the 60's. When the shit goes into the wind with this kind of a scene even the police go nuts and in my callow youth I thought I would change the world and not do so. Ah, if only it were so. When mobs and crowds get everyone's blood up, our monkey brains take over. If you happen to be one of the better equipped monkeys charged with putting the other primate band down, you will do what ever flashes into your significantly narrowed consciousness to get that task done. No matter who gets hurt and how badly. You just have to live with what you can remember of it later.

Welllll, I also spent one Halloween at SIU. The time I was there was pretty much a Mardi Gras atmosphere, fun but controlled. It got so bad in later years that they scheduled mid-term break at the end of October and closed the dorms.

[Mark E. Hurling]

What year was that bob? I came on the PD there after 1974. I saw some pretty crazy ones there both as an undergrad and later as a cop. The worst shit was in 1970 when Kent State happened. The town got trashed. The year streaking got big we filled up every county jail for the surrounding 5 counties by Thursday that week as the numbers of streakers went up and up and up day by day. We just had to give up arresting people for public indecency because there was no place to keep them. By Saturday night, Illinois Avenue, the main north/south street was filled with people from storefront to storefront. Estimates were 10,000 people downtown that night. Half of them naked. Crazy, but not hurting anyone or anything. We just had to work the edges and look for the few real trouble makers.