A Re-clarification?

[Gonzalo]

I've recently began starting strength as a bulking program.

I'm currently 17, 135 lb, 5' 9", with a genetically low body fat percentage (less than 10%) and a mix of a mesomorph and an ectomorph.

My goals are *EXTREMELY* original. I plan to gain 30-40 lb and strength using this program, cut the fat from my body afterwards, and then simply maintain my physique.

As of yesterday, I had been consuming 3000 calories daily. Today, I decided to up the calories to 4000 a day (with the whole milk gallon and a ratio of 30 fat, 20 protein, and 50 carbohydrates).

My first question would be: is 4000 daily calories sufficient for a person like me to reach 165-175 lb, or should I switch to a 5000 calorie diet? My basal metabolic rate is 1666 and when I use a weight gain calculator, the result rarely even reaches 3000 calories, which causes me to think that this daily amount is excessive. However, I don't mind the more aggressive approach. Besides, this isn't a particularly subtle program.

Also, as long as the 4000 calorie mark is reached (I use fitday to record every meal) and the macro nutrients are satisfied, do I have to drink the complete gallon of whole milk? I realize that saturated fat is considered healthy and that the extra 2400 calories would only help me to reach my goal calories faster, but if I happen to get my calories elsewhere sometimes (perhaps from even healthier sources) and omit some of the gallon, would that be a problem for muscular development?

Thanks Mark

[Gonzalo]

Well, I just came back from my last workout of the 4th week. I'm disappointed. I'm quite literally thinking about restarting the entire program.

First off, right from the first week I started with extremely poor form and excessive weights (I mean really, 95 lb power cleans to start is ridiculous!). Also, I was under the impression from some web site (I do have both books, though I'm reading them as I do the program) that I should increase weights WEEKLY instead of every workout.

To make all of this even worse, today my squat was dying (the usual pain I experience in my inner thigh became extremely severe), my over head press completely failed (couldn't even do one set), and my power cleans where near impossible to do (I couldn't even do one).

Then I came back to this site, just to see that my questions weren't even answered, but moved.

You know what, I'm not disappointed. I'm fucking devastated.

[JoeM]

Hi Gonzalo,

Do you know what a "troll" is? It's someone who says things that are massively ill-informed and inflammatory to generate a strong reaction from members of an online community for the fun of it.

This quote from your last email:
"First off, right from the first week I started with extremely poor form and excessive weights (I mean really, 95 lb power cleans to start is ridiculous!). Also, I was under the impression from some web site (I do have both books, though I'm reading them as I do the program) that I should increase weights WEEKLY instead of every workout."

is either a perfect example of a troll setting out the bait or an exceedingly ill-informed post by a newbie who hasn't even tried to avail himself of the massive amount of information that has been made available to him in Mark's books and on this board. If you are the former, I hope you will just go away now, if you are the latter, then use this as an opportunity to do yourself a world of good by reading carefully and making adjustments before you get so pissed off by the replies your comments are likely to generate that you give up on the whole endeavor.

Good luck, Joe

[veryhrm]

Take it easy chief.

On your calorie thing/milk question. A few things (and i'm no SS official or anything):
Eat normally (whatever that means for you) and drink your milk. Prob want to start w/ maybe half a gallon a day ... ramp up from there. 4000 vs 5000 cals a day isn't going to make or break your SS experience. However, keep in mind that BMR stuff is mostly BS. Estimating is neither accurate nor precise and the SS program is going to affect your caloric usage a lot.

On the form: if you're just working by yourself you might have to practice for a couple of workouts w/ particularly light weights to get the form down for the exercises. If you have a coach who can basically give you feedback right away during and after the set then you can have the basic form together in just one or two workouts but working by yourself don't be surprised if it takes longer. Don't start eating a lot until you're actually doing the program and are ready to start increasing weights though since you'll otherwise be gaining fat for no good reason. Read the book(s).. do the program. Learn to enjoy elbow pain. :-)

[Gonzalo]

[This ] is either a perfect example of a troll setting out the bait or an exceedingly ill-informed post by a newbie who hasn't even tried to avail himself of the massive amount of information that has been made available to him in Mark's books and on this board.



So, I'm either a jerk or an idiot...great

Guess I'll have to take the latter, though granted, I did learn about the adjustment rates for the program previous to this and implemented it at that moment (though it was pretty much too late). And yes I started off doing a 95 lb power clean because I decided it would be an awesome idea to use the basic strength standards in the back of Practical Programming as a guide. Then again, at that point (4 week ago) I wasn't sure what 1RM meant and I considered myself a novice since I had done some dumbbell work in the past. I used these standards to start ALL of my lifts, probably explains why they're either stalled or stalling. Anyway, your cynicism saddens me...I have my workout logs recorded on Word, if you want I can post them as proof.

[Gonzalo]

I'm already used to eating 3000 and 4000 calories, but I can usually reach that number without drinking the entire gallon (if I do the calories would probably go past 5000). I just need a number that I can use consistently throughout the program. I could really use some confirmation, is 4000 enough for this program to work as intended (At least for me)?

As for the form, I guess I've had 12 workout sessions to work on them and i'm finally understanding how to do the power clean correctly. I don't have a coach or anybody to help me that actually knows what starting strength is, it's just me.

I'm unsure, but I want to restart this program tomorrow. I've been doing a Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday split, but since school is going to start I might as well use this as an opportunity to switch my workouts to Monday/ Wednesday/Friday. From reading a clarification and this thread, my plan would be to eat 4000 calories a day with as much of the gallon as needed to reach that number and to increase the squat/dead lift 10 lb each workout for the first 6 workouts, and then go by 5 lb until I can't any longer. As for the clean and two presses, I would go up by 5's every workout (I don't know how I'm going to be able to keep these up though, and I don't have any 1.25 lb weights for when the gains start to slow).

I really DON'T want to even try to pick a starting weight after what happened last time, I think I might just start with the bar for all of them and go for from there. If you have any suggestions on starting weights that would be really helpful (I realize this has been covered in the books and this board, but my guess is that those instances aren't unique to me).

Thank you

[dsp]

Go ahead and start a log here, it can be a massive amount of help. Also, I would probably limit the power cleans to practicing form with very light weight from the hang position (when you jump) after your workouts, and just deadlift on both days. It's very awkward to power clean with weights smaller than a plate (35's will be acceptable), and deadlifting alone will build your back strength enough to do some non-awkward power cleans. Deadlifting 3x a week at such light weights won't affect your recovery if you're eating enough.

[MikeC1]

It might be a good idea for you to lay off the weights for a while, and actually read Starting Strength first. What made you think it was a good idea to start your weights at the numbers in the strength standards in PP? At where you are, your strength and mass goals will improve as fast as your reading comprehension skills.

[Gonzalo]

Go ahead and start a log here, it can be a massive amount of help. Also, I would probably limit the power cleans to practicing form with very light weight from the hang position (when you jump) after your workouts, and just deadlift on both days. It's very awkward to power clean with weights smaller than a plate (35's will be acceptable), and deadlifting alone will build your back strength enough to do some non-awkward power cleans. Deadlifting 3x a week at such light weights won't affect your recovery if you're eating enough.

Ok, I'll do that! The dead lift idea sounds great as well, though I guess that would mean that it would progress as fast as the squat. I don't really know if that would be an issue, but I'd prefer to just replace the clean with the Pendlay row.

[Gonzalo]

It might be a good idea for you to lay off the weights for a while, and actually read Starting Strength first. What made you think it was a good idea to start your weights at the numbers in the strength standards in PP? At where you are, your strength and mass goals will improve as fast as your reading comprehension skills.

My reading comprehension is fine. If not, I'd misunderstand your message to be a condescending illusion of help instead of genuine constructive criticism. Oh wait.


I though the tables in practical programming where there as a guiding point to use as starting weights. I was seeing and reading what I wanted to read, not what was objectively on the page. Unfortunately, I had to learn that the hard way. It's fine though, because I realize that now and I can start fresh tomorrow using this board as a guide (or at least, as a nice, helpful way for feedback). [:

[MikeC1]

Putting aside that you should really have the most recent editions of the books, let me quote here from the first edition of PP in the strength standards section: " 'Novice' means a person training regularly for a period of 3-9 months." This is what I mean by you needing to work on your reading comprehension.

Also: "The standards presented in the following tables represent a 1RM performance that can be reasonably expected of an athlete at various levels of training advancement using standard full range-of-motion barbell exercises."
Now why would you use what is indicated for a 1RM for 3 sets of 5?

This is all ignoring the fact that those numbers don't mean anything, and should not be used to decide how much weight to lift, something that has been covered a million times on this board.

[Carlos Daniel]

The starting weight should be a weight that feels somewhat challenging but not hard in any sort of way. It's better to start "easy".

I don't know if 4000kcal is gonna be ok, I just drank 3 liters of milk and ate as much as I could stomach. I have no idea how many calories that was but my post-workout meal alone was 2000 kcal, so I'm guessing a little more than 4000kcal.

Film your workouts so we can check your form.

[Carlos Daniel]

My reading comprehension is fine. If not, I'd misunderstand your message to be a condescending illusion of help instead of genuine constructive criticism. Oh wait.


I though the tables in practical programming where there as a guiding point to use as starting weights. I was seeing and reading what I wanted to read, not what was objectively on the page. Unfortunately, I had to learn that the hard way. It's fine though, because I realize that now and I can start fresh tomorrow using this board as a guide (or at least, as a nice, helpful way for feedback). [:

I'm starting to understand why Rip removed those tables from the 2nd edition.

[dsp]

Ok, I'll do that! The dead lift idea sounds great as well, though I guess that would mean that it would progress as fast as the squat. I don't really know if that would be an issue, but I'd prefer to just replace the clean with the Pendlay row.

Deadlift is making bigger jumps than the squat for a long while. You deadlift 6x a month on the regular program, that should add up to 60lbs/month progression for a while. Squat goes up 5lbs 12x a month. Same thing. If your deadlift gets up faster for the first while, it'll hit the 5lb increases sooner, and your squat will eventually match/surpass it.

If you're going to do the rows, do them as Rip teaches them in starting strength, with the hip extension to break the bar off the floor and using that momentum to help finish with the arms. Pendlays are too strict in my not-so-valuable opinion.

[Gonzalo]

Mike, I know I screwed up, no need to keep shoving it in my face D:< ! I want to get past that as soon as possible and try again, correctly this time.

Carlos, how much do you weigh? I mean, it shouldn't be too difficult to bump up to 5000, but if you weigh anywhere near 185 I'll keep the 4000.

DSP, honestly, I really like the dead lift because it's simple, but challenging at the same time. I'm more than eager to add it onto every workout along with squats. I can imagine that will only help mass gains seeing how i'll be lifting heavy correctly instead of arguing with the guy next to me about how to do a power clean (HA!).


So. So far, 4000 calories a day, squats every workout going up by 10 lb, dead lift every workout going up by 10 lb, and the two presses being interchanged going up by 5 lb. For accessory exercises, where I picked up this program, I was instructed to add dips and chin ups since the start. I now know they were supposed to be added later. What do you guys think? I would like to do Abdominal exercises (oooooo scary!) but i'm well aware that they are likely not very effective since i'm using them so much in the major lifts. I'm already doing stomach vacuums, so that's good.

[Carlos Daniel]

Mike, I know I screwed up, no need to keep shoving it in my face D:< ! I want to get past that as soon as possible and try again, correctly this time.

Carlos, how much do you weigh? I mean, it shouldn't be too difficult to bump up to 5000, but if you weigh anywhere near 185 I'll keep the 4000.

DSP, honestly, I really like the dead lift because it's simple, but challenging at the same time. I'm more than eager to add it onto every workout along with squats. I can imagine that will only help mass gains seeing how i'll be lifting heavy correctly instead of arguing with the guy next to me about how to do a power clean (HA!).


So. So far, 4000 calories a day, squats every workout going up by 10 lb, dead lift every workout going up by 10 lb, and the two presses being interchanged going up by 5 lb. For accessory exercises, where I picked up this program, I was instructed to add dips and chin ups since the start. I now know they were supposed to be added later. What do you guys think? I would like to do Abdominal exercises (oooooo scary!) but i'm well aware that they are likely not very effective since i'm using them so much in the major lifts. I'm already doing stomach vacuums, so that's good.

I weight 185 now, but when I started I weighted 135. Do the chins, keep the dips for later.

[dsp]

Abs won't hurt, you'll probably be happier down the line if you do 3 sets of weighted situps. completely optional.

[Gonzalo]

I weight 185 now, but when I started I weighted 135. Do the chins, keep the dips for later.

That's great! What weights did you start out with? I can use them as a reference tomorrow.

For the chin ups and dips I've already been doing them for 4 weeks, would it be alright if I just start out doing both? (dips for workout A, chin-ups workout B)

Also, what's the progression on these like? I'm guessing it's very small compared to everything else

[Gonzalo]

Abs won't hurt, you'll probably be happier down the line if you do 3 sets of weighted situps. completely optional.

I'll make sure to add them to the other two then. How would I go about and do that? (for example, do them once a week, every workout, or every other workout)

[dsp]

Whenever you have time. Sometimes when i miss a set im too pissed off and just want to leave the gym so i skip them. i did notice that the increased ab strength helped me from leaning too far back on the press, and also helped me to keep lumbar extension while doing squats and deads.

[LeonidasfromSparta]

For accessory exercises, where I picked up this program, I was instructed to add dips and chin ups since the start.

What program did you pick up and where? Dips are not in SS, and chins are added much latter. You sure you've got SS and PP 2nd Edition? Cause you really should have read them by now, and would have not waisted our time (and yours) about the starting weight in each exercise. This process (of the weights you begin SS) is clearly described in THE BOOK.

[Gonzalo]

I don't feel like I wasted my time at all, I've come to really appreciate the responses given in this thread. If you guys feel like you're wasting yours, then don't answer. I'm not magically taking away your barbells (ooo noooooo not the barbells!) until you answer.

Anyway, I picked up the program using this site: http://www.startingstrength.net/workouts/

And it's not the only one that emphasizes starting out with dips, chin-ups, and abdominal work (which is optional). Of course, the forum of the very web site dedicated to the book would know better, so my guess would be to only add the accessories after a few weeks.

I've figured out my starting weights though, so I'm happy! 85 lb squat, 65 lb bench press, 85 lb dead lift, and 45 lb overhead press.

By the 4th week of my failed SS I was doing 165 lb squats, 110 lb bench, 185 lb deadlift, and 80 lb overhead press.

[dsp]

Are dips an awful addition to SS or what?

[Gonzalo]

Are dips an awful addition to SS or what?

I don't know, but I think I'm just going to do them anyway (along with the abdominal exercise you suggested). I'm starting my log as soon as I get back from the gym today. I would like to just start it in this thread, but there's also a nice section completely dedicated to logs, so I might use that instead.

[dsp]

use the log section and post a link to it in this thread. i recommend just doing plain SS for a while to be honest, the first week will be as easy as wiping your ass but it will QUICKLY catch up with you. no need to do extra work if it's not contributing to anything. also, since you deloaded an extreme amount (but to the correct weights if you followed the bar speed rule), you could probably make some bigger jumps the first two weeks.

I would do 10lb jumps on the squat till I couldn't (even if you could get away with 1 or 2 20lb jumps, it'll be better in the long run to keep form as tight as possible), 10lb jumps on the bench until 95lbs (use your judgement here), 20lb jumps on the DL for a while, and maybe one or two 10lb jumps for the press.

anyways im no coach rip, but i'll help you on your log once you post it!

[Gonzalo]

Thank you all very much for helping me! If you'd like to see my new workout log, please provide 3 easy payments of $19.99. I MEAN...errr, press this link: http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=25736

[LeonidasfromSparta]

I don't feel like I wasted my time at all, I've come to really appreciate the responses given in this thread. If you guys feel like you're wasting yours, then don't answer. I'm not magically taking away your barbells (ooo noooooo not the barbells!) until you answer.

Anyway, I picked up the program using this site: http://www.startingstrength.net/workouts/

And it's not the only one that emphasizes starting out with dips, chin-ups, and abdominal work (which is optional). Of course, the forum of the very web site dedicated to the book would know better, so my guess would be to only add the accessories after a few weeks.

I've figured out my starting weights though, so I'm happy! 85 lb squat, 65 lb bench press, 85 lb dead lift, and 45 lb overhead press.

By the 4th week of my failed SS I was doing 165 lb squats, 110 lb bench, 185 lb deadlift, and 80 lb overhead press.

OK, good luck with your training.

[LeonidasfromSparta]

Are dips an awful addition to SS or what?
Awful? No, unnecessary at the beginning? Yes.