Herniated Discs and Starting Strength

[Cambero]

Hi Coach,

First, thanks for all the great information and advice, own all your books and the DVD. If you publish ebook formats, I'll buy them again, that is how valuable the content is.

Now I search and read the forum, to avoid repeating a question you have answer, and that brought me at the doors of a chiropractor, but now that I have a clear idea of what happened, I would appreciate your opinion.

Ill try to be brief but detailed, thanks for the time; anyway, hurt my back on deadlift, two years ago due to bad form; did not go to chiropractor (did not know better, also no MRI was taken - long story, but I have screws in my body) the pain management doc injected epidural in my lower back in two separate sessions and that let me work again, which in effect strengthen my lumbar again. I became stronger than before following SS.

Two years later...

Now with correct form, but an incorrect jump in weight, I know foolish of me (scheduled to 1x5 deadlift at 360 lbs but left my notes, so I went with 370 instead). Thus, i reinjured while deadlifting, a worst injury this time around. We did an MRI this time, since I needed to know the cause of the problem...they found:

"Moderate-large central/left central disk protrusion at L4-L5 contacts and displaces the left descending L5 nerve root, and causes mild-moderate spinal canal stenosis and mild left foraminal stenosis.

Small-moderate central disk protrusion at L5-S1 without nerve root contact, central or foraminal stenosis."

The pain management MD gave me a new epidural, was looking to avoid this, but after two months at the chiropractor, progress stagnated. Now the pain management doctor wants me to stop lifting period, forever. While the chiropractor first wanted me to never squat/deadlift again and after I balked asked me to do no more than let's say 75% of my 5MR.

So my questions are the following, training wise, can i start SS again? Should I add modifications to it? And lastly should I see a Neurologist that may want to do surgery? Lastly do you figure Anabolic Steroids, if I can continue training, can help my back heal more efficiently, so as to better avoid this occurring again (maybe the doctor can prescribed them, not sure)?

Thank you and excuse the length.

~ Cambero

[JB1981]

Anabolic steroids for a herniated disc? You think an MD will prescribe this?

[RyanWhittemore]

I had the same injury, also from getting out of position on a deadlift. My injury occurred on May 2nd of this year. The doctor gave me the same gloom and doom. She said MAYBE after 8-9 months I'd be ready to start doing some lifting again. After consulting with Rip, I immediately started decompressing my spine by hanging from two weightlifting belts on a pullup bar several times a day. Two weeks after my injury, he had me start deadlifting 95lbs for 3 sets of 20. It really sucked that it was actually difficult to do! It took about a month before I could squat without pretty severe sciatica. Now, just over 3 months later I am at 95% of my previous deadlift, and 90% of my previous squat. My press and bench have gone way up as well. I will say that now that I am approaching the weights I could handle before, it is a bit of a mental game. I'm keeping the jumps pretty small, but overall I'm feeling really good. So based on my experience, yes you can start a linear progression again immediately.

[JB1981]

I had the same injury, also from getting out of position on a deadlift. My injury occurred on May 2nd of this year. The doctor gave me the same gloom and doom. She said MAYBE after 8-9 months I'd be ready to start doing some lifting again. After consulting with Rip, I immediately started decompressing my spine by hanging from two weightlifting belts on a pullup bar several times a day. Two weeks after my injury, he had me start deadlifting 95lbs for 3 sets of 20. It really sucked that it was actually difficult to do! It took about a month before I could squat without pretty severe sciatica. Now, just over 3 months later I am at 95% of my previous deadlift, and 90% of my previous squat. My press and bench have gone way up as well. I will say that now that I am approaching the weights I could handle before, it is a bit of a mental game. I'm keeping the jumps pretty small, but overall I'm feeling really good. So based on my experience, yes you can start a linear progression again immediately.


Ryan,

I have the same injury. How many days a week did he have you do 95lbs deadlifts at 3 sets of 20? That is a ton of volume. Can you also tell me how you hung from the weightlifting belts. Did you hang from your elbows?

[RyanWhittemore]

I put the belts up into my armpits and then held onto the bar. I tried to relax and blow out all of my air. I would hang for 15-30 seconds probably. I'd do that between each deadlift set, and maybe a couple of additional times per day. Occasionally, my lumbar vertebrae would 'crack' and scare the hell out of me, but it provided great relief from the sciatica. As for deadlifts, I did them every day at first. It wasn't too long before I started raising the weight and reducing the volume. I'd have to check my log, but once I got over 135 I think I went down to 10 reps, and soon after that went down to 5 reps in a normal linear progression. The idea with the high volume initially was that since I couldn't load the injury with heavy weight, I needed to load it with high volume. Like I said before, the squat took a lot longer. I tried to squat just a bar at two weeks as well, but the sciatic pain was pretty bad, and very intense the next day. It took a few weeks of decompression and deadlifts before I was ready to do much else. I was very happy with the results. I hope it works well for you.

[Tom Campitelli]

Great posts, Ryan.

[JB1981]

I put the belts up into my armpits and then held onto the bar. I tried to relax and blow out all of my air. I would hang for 15-30 seconds probably. I'd do that between each deadlift set, and maybe a couple of additional times per day. Occasionally, my lumbar vertebrae would 'crack' and scare the hell out of me, but it provided great relief from the sciatica. As for deadlifts, I did them every day at first. It wasn't too long before I started raising the weight and reducing the volume. I'd have to check my log, but once I got over 135 I think I went down to 10 reps, and soon after that went down to 5 reps in a normal linear progression. The idea with the high volume initially was that since I couldn't load the injury with heavy weight, I needed to load it with high volume. Like I said before, the squat took a lot longer. I tried to squat just a bar at two weeks as well, but the sciatic pain was pretty bad, and very intense the next day. It took a few weeks of decompression and deadlifts before I was ready to do much else. I was very happy with the results. I hope it works well for you.

Very interesting. I am going to buy some shitty weightlifting belts from Modells and use them for this purpose. I did deadlifts today 90lbx6x3. How the hell did you do twenties? I guess I am incredibly out of shape but you wouldn't think so by looking at me. I find it very hard to stay in proper deadlift position for a long time. My hamstrings tire out fast and so does my low back.

[RyanWhittemore]

Yeah I felt pretty out of shape the first time I did it too, and it had only been two weeks off. I didn't rush them, and took my time to set up properly each time (since that was most likely the cause of my injury in the first place). I also took plenty of time in between sets doing the decompressions and just walking around trying to stay loose.

[Cambero]

Anabolic steroids for a herniated disc? You think an MD will prescribe this?



No idea, I was wondering the same, but my chiropractor agrees that stronger muscles will help shorten the recovery and avoid it from reoccurring. I am not looking to get jacked up on steroids, I just want a healthy back and to be able to squat/deadlift properly, I imagine that would mean a lower dosage than what others use to become muscle bound.

[Cambero]

I put the belts up into my armpits and then held onto the bar. I tried to relax and blow out all of my air. I would hang for 15-30 seconds probably. I'd do that between each deadlift set, and maybe a couple of additional times per day. Occasionally, my lumbar vertebrae would 'crack' and scare the hell out of me, but it provided great relief from the sciatica. As for deadlifts, I did them every day at first. It wasn't too long before I started raising the weight and reducing the volume. I'd have to check my log, but once I got over 135 I think I went down to 10 reps, and soon after that went down to 5 reps in a normal linear progression. The idea with the high volume initially was that since I couldn't load the injury with heavy weight, I needed to load it with high volume. Like I said before, the squat took a lot longer. I tried to squat just a bar at two weeks as well, but the sciatic pain was pretty bad, and very intense the next day. It took a few weeks of decompression and deadlifts before I was ready to do much else. I was very happy with the results. I hope it works well for you.

Thanks for the info Ryan,

With what weight did you start the high volume deadlift and what increments did you use? Figure I could use some of those platform steps in the gym to bring up the deadlift to the correct height if need be. I tried this, but the squat was painful and it gave me 2nd thouhts; now that I remember the deadlift high volume were tough, but helped alleviate the pain. Of course the chiropractor asked that I stopped it, so I did...but I really miss the gym, please let me know those increments or did you just go by how you felt...?

I was following SS when I injured myself, almost reaching the point to move into an intermmidiate phase, on that note what about press, bench and power cleans did you cease those?


Again thanks.

[RyanWhittemore]

I started at 95 pounds for 3 sets of 20. I probably did that for a week to ten days, then increased 10 pounds per week, still doing 3 sets of 20 every day until I got to 135. Like I said, that's when I had to drop the volume some. It's also probably about when I started squatting very light weights again. I had the same experience in that the light deadlifts relieved a lot of the sciatica I was experiencing.

[Cambero]

I had the same injury, also from getting out of position on a deadlift. My injury occurred on May 2nd of this year. The doctor gave me the same gloom and doom. She said MAYBE after 8-9 months I'd be ready to start doing some lifting again. After consulting with Rip, I immediately started decompressing my spine by hanging from two weightlifting belts on a pullup bar several times a day. Two weeks after my injury, he had me start deadlifting 95lbs for 3 sets of 20. It really sucked that it was actually difficult to do! It took about a month before I could squat without pretty severe sciatica. Now, just over 3 months later I am at 95% of my previous deadlift, and 90% of my previous squat. My press and bench have gone way up as well. I will say that now that I am approaching the weights I could handle before, it is a bit of a mental game. I'm keeping the jumps pretty small, but overall I'm feeling really good. So based on my experience, yes you can start a linear progression again immediately.


I put the belts up into my armpits and then held onto the bar. I tried to relax and blow out all of my air. I would hang for 15-30 seconds probably. I'd do that between each deadlift set, and maybe a couple of additional times per day. Occasionally, my lumbar vertebrae would 'crack' and scare the hell out of me, but it provided great relief from the sciatica. As for deadlifts, I did them every day at first. It wasn't too long before I started raising the weight and reducing the volume. I'd have to check my log, but once I got over 135 I think I went down to 10 reps, and soon after that went down to 5 reps in a normal linear progression. The idea with the high volume initially was that since I couldn't load the injury with heavy weight, I needed to load it with high volume. Like I said before, the squat took a lot longer. I tried to squat just a bar at two weeks as well, but the sciatic pain was pretty bad, and very intense the next day. It took a few weeks of decompression and deadlifts before I was ready to do much else. I was very happy with the results. I hope it works well for you.


I started at 95 pounds for 3 sets of 20. I probably did that for a week to ten days, then increased 10 pounds per week, still doing 3 sets of 20 every day until I got to 135. Like I said, that's when I had to drop the volume some. It's also probably about when I started squatting very light weights again. I had the same experience in that the light deadlifts relieved a lot of the sciatica I was experiencing.

Well I am glad to hear you are back to almost 100%, it gives me some hope. My injury occurred in the first week of May as well. I meant to initially ask you, did you stopped pressing, cleaning, and benching until you were able to squat comfortably again?

[JB1981]

Deadlifts seem to just make my sciatica worse :( In fact it's one of the few movement patterns that does.

[RyanWhittemore]

I most definitely stopped pressing and cleaning. I've only just started cleaning again recently. I never stopped benching, and I got back to pressing very light weights about the same time I started squatted again. Chins and Dips were no problem either.

[Cambero]

I most definitely stopped pressing and cleaning. I've only just started cleaning again recently. I never stopped benching, and I got back to pressing very light weights about the same time I started squatted again. Chins and Dips were no problem either.

Interesting, well I can Clean fine, but Squatting more than 135 hurts. Well we all have to find our paths I guess. I'll work cautiously with what I can and eventually add Squats. Thank you for all the info.

[Cambero]

Deadlifts seem to just make my sciatica worse :( In fact it's one of the few movement patterns that does.

From all I have read all this weeks, stretching before deadlifting may help. And of course strengthening with other lifts and time will also eventually help it heal. Don't give up on deadlifting.

[Roy]

From all I have read all this weeks, stretching before deadlifting may help. And of course strengthening with other lifts and time will also eventually help it heal. Don't give up on deadlifting.

I had herniated l5 s1 a while back and ended up with sciatica, which lasted 6 months before starting to get better. I attribute the lack of positive response initially to not ever taking a substantial break from lifting, running, sports (judo). At great length I saw I wasn't getting better and took about 3 months off completely, and then was able to work back in slowly squats and deads pain-free.

I waited until I was actually pain free before starting lifting again. For therapy I had just walking, McKenzie extensions, and ibuprofen at prescription doeses, and during that time also had a 14 day prescription of prednisone which seemed to have the biggest effect on the pain before/after. I think during that time I was also doing front planks fairly often.

After those 3 rest months I ended up spending about 2 months doing '531' at somewhat low for me training maxes, which ends up being a main lift a day 4 times a week with fairly high reps. After that I was pretty sure I wasn't ready to break in half, having no pain, and then went back to linear progression. Since then was able to get back to over my previous levels in most things.

More than anything I'd say use your common sense...if you get the feeling your sciatica is not improving or getting worse, and you notice the weeks/months going by. It's time to change something, which is probably taking a break. I feel like I wasted so much time because I refused to take any time off, which if I had just done earlier I would have been recovered in the long run much sooner. It can be pretty discouraging to have daily pain for months on end, so don't be too stubborn if you gut is telling you what you're doing isn't working.

[Cambero]

More than anything I'd say use your common sense...if you get the feeling your sciatica is not improving or getting worse, and you notice the weeks/months going by. It's time to change something, which is probably taking a break. I feel like I wasted so much time because I refused to take any time off, which if I had just done earlier I would have been recovered in the long run much sooner. It can be pretty discouraging to have daily pain for months on end, so don't be too stubborn if you gut is telling you what you're doing isn't working.

Yes, use your common sense, very good advice, everyone's injury, daily life, and recovery is different. For example, in my case, deadlifting actually helps with the pain, so I'll cautiously do a linear progression with deadlifts. Squats are another story, I need to give them more time.

[rashid29]

I also have a similar injury, though it was not as severe and I have not had an sciatica. Did you guys keep squatting low bar or did you switch to high bar? And did start using a belt for all weights?

[Cambero]

No sciatica here also, at the very least anything that even resembled one was helped by the Chiropractor. I am doing low bar squats 3x5, started with only the bar and increasing 10 pounds each workout; been careful, going below parallel (of course) but not too deep.

[Cambero]

Alright, I am again at 155, my lower back felt tight, which worried me. Next workout I'll only do a 5lbs increment, to see if it feels better. On the side note I 'borrowed' a coworker's ergonomic chair, back is much better rested and less pain.

[arielbackpain]

Herniated discs are a major cause of disability in people under 45.
I am one of those people.
For the past 3 years I suffer L5S1 disc hernia, the most common type of hernia.
But each case is slightly different and that makes it very difficult to treat.
In my case I also have hyperlordosis, scoliosis and spina bifida.
I have been trying countless treatments and supposed cures. I was often left in disappointment but fortunately found some sources of relief.
I'm not a doctor, just a student with lots of experience with a mother which is a doctor.
At this time, despite my efforts, I have reached a point where I need surgery.
But if I have had the experience and the knowledge I have now I could have avoided this complicated situation for sure.

[grant.meeker]

I have the same injury as described at the beginning of the thread - 4-5 - "Moderately large central disc protrusion resulting in severe spinal canal stenosis...more left-sided neural compression"

L5-S1 - "Posterior annular tear with small central disc tear - contacts and mildly flattens right S1 nerve root

All of this due to an accelerated disc degeneration similar to what my sister had starting when she was about 18 (I am 23). It came out of nowhere - I raced 2 olympic and 1 sprint triathlon in 2012. The culminating event leading to the discs finally herniating and wrecking my back may have been a series of back extensions one day before I knew better and was performing a far less useful strength program.

After 3 days of laying on my couch not moving and 2 more months and limping around and beginning to understand the misery of someone in chronic pain, I got the OK from the physiatrist to exercise again and I got in touch with Jordan (one of the SS coaches) and decided to listen to half of the doctor's orders (the one's that said "let the pain be your guide"), and began SS, making certain of proper form while I did it. After the first couple weeks, I took my first sciatic-pain free steps at the gym following some squats and then found them becoming more and more common as I got stronger. Also, I have very tight muscles and found that the back spasms that have plagued me for years got better almost immediately upon getting into SS.

I've also been dosing with about 2g Vitamin C/day in hopes that it's connective tissue building properties could aid in battling the effects of the degenerative disc disorder that caused the initial pain - I'm not sure how effective this has been, but since it's a simple, cheap, and painless treatment, I'll keep it up for the time being until something comes out saying I shouldnt. Sciatic pain at about 20% of what it was before, but tweaked it yesterday on a Power Clean and definitely reminded me that not all was right in my world.

[Cambero]

With time and performing SS correctly (not too aggressive on the weight jumps), I am right now at 300 squat. My back feels fine.

Best of luck to you. Be careful with the PCs - I find that technique can breakdown easily on those.