5/3/1 programming without bench press

[Jsutt]

Hi KSC, first of all I think what you're doing here is awesome, should help a lot of people out.

I'm an intermediate lifter, and for about two months I've been running Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 full-body program (http://www.t-nation.com/strength-training-topics/1316) which is kind of a cross between 5/3/1 and Texas Method. The problem I'm trying to solve is that I hate bench pressing with a passion. I've never been good at it, it doesn't progress, it never feels strong, and it's a pain in the ass doing it safely. I also think it contributes to inflammation in my shoulder and elbow. I *could* persevere with it, but I'd rather drop it. I already do dumbbell benches on Monday as assistance and overhead presses on Friday.

My question is, if I replace the bench press on Wednesday with weighted dips, is that adequate to keep driving upper body strength and maintain healthy shoulders? And would that be at a similar level of volume to the 5/3/1 model or do I need to keep to higher reps?

Thanks for any advice you can give.
Stats:
Age 25
Weight ~195lb (haven't had scales for a while)
Best lifts:
Squat 303x5
Deadlift 350x5
Bench 190x2
Press 137x1
Power clean 187x1

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

I generally only drop benching from a clients program when they are over the 300 lb mark and can do weighted dips with enough weight to make a difference, and their press is where I want it to be in relation to their goals.

It is hard to move the press without bench presses. If the press is gonna be your main focus then I'd rather see you press twice per week rather than db bench, dip, press.

That being said, if I was pressing 137 and bench 190 I would keep benching.

[Jsutt]

Ah, I was hoping you weren't going to say that. My bench *has* got stronger since starting 5/3/1 full-body, from something like 175 for 2 (grinding) to 175 for 5 (solid), I just don't like doing it. I've read a few articles on the net that suggested the main reasons to bench are a) it's part of powerlifting and b) guys love bench pressing so much, and since neither applied I figured I could just drop it entirely. Oh well...

Do you think it would be better to do the benches with higher reps/lower intensity than a 5/3/1 set then? Perhaps I could go back to just doing 3x5 with a lower weight.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

I'm not gonna tell you that you have to do anything. Guys have gotten strong doing all kinds of stuff, including not benching. The reason I like benches for novices is that they allow you to handle the most amount of weight through a full range of motion.

What are your training goals???

[Jsutt]

I just want to get to a decent level of strength and be more muscular. My goals at the moment are focused on getting to a 400lb squat and a 440 deadlift, and then I was planning to re-evaluate. If circumstances allow I want to get into olympic lifting but at the moment I'm not really in a position to do that.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Sounds good to me. Let us know how you do.

[OCG]

It should be noted that if benching does not "feel good" and you aren't solid and tight under the bar then your form needs work.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Noted.

[seti]

I generally only drop benching from a clients program when they are over the 300 lb mark and can do weighted dips with enough weight to make a difference, and their press is where I want it to be in relation to their goals.

It is hard to move the press without bench presses. If the press is gonna be your main focus then I'd rather see you press twice per week rather than db bench, dip, press.

That being said, if I was pressing 137 and bench 190 I would keep benching.

Hi Andy,

Could you comment on my pressing program? I'm also focusing on the press, although I don't want to drop the bench.

Here's what I'm doing now. I'm doing 2-3 sets of 5 or 3 as warmup before these.

Thursday (Heavy day): Bench 3x5 ramped + 1 back-off (8-12)
Saturday (Light day): Press 3x5 across
Monday (Medium day): Press 5x3 across + 1 back-off (8-12), Dips (BW or 3x5 ramped or across)

Last week's weights:
H: Bench 176lbsx5, 198lbsx5, 220lbsx4, 154lbsx10
L: Press 151lbs 3x5
M: Press 165lbs 5x3, 132lbs 1x11, Dips: BW (218lbsx10) +26lbsx5 +44lbsx5 + 66lbsx5

Stats:
age:31
height: 5'11''
weight: 218lbs

So what do you think? Goal is to press 220lbsx1 (bodyweight), latest 1RM I've tested was 176lbsx1.
I'd like to use the bench and the weighted dips primarily as assistance in increasing my press.

Thanks for your answer in advance!

BR,
Robert

[Jsutt]

It should be noted that if benching does not "feel good" and you aren't solid and tight under the bar then your form needs work.

This is probably true. I've gone back to SS to read the bench chapter and I'll put up some form checks before giving up on it.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Robert,

I'd do this:

Monday: Press 5 x 5 + Weighted Dips 3 x 10-12
Thursday: Press 5 x 1 alternated with 3 x 2 weekly. Bench Press with press grip 3 x 5

Microload. Make sure you are squatting 2-3 days per week also. You are my guinea pig for this particular program. Keep me updated with how it works.

[cjangelo]

I can't barbell bench press.

Right now I'm doing the following pressing movements:

Monday:
OH Press, 7 singles
DB Bench Press - Neutral grip because of shoulder - 2x10

Thursday:
OH Press, x3, x3, xAMRAP
DB Bench Press - Neutral grip - 2x12

Progression:
Every workout, I add a few lbs to the OH Press Weights.

For DB Press, I go 2x10 one workout, then 2x12 the next workout, then 2x15, then on the fourth workout bump up to heavier DBs and do those for 2x10 again. Repeat.

I'll see how this works.

[seti]

Robert,

I'd do this:

Monday: Press 5 x 5 + Weighted Dips 3 x 10-12
Thursday: Press 5 x 1 alternated with 3 x 2 weekly. Bench Press with press grip 3 x 5

Microload. Make sure you are squatting 2-3 days per week also. You are my guinea pig for this particular program. Keep me updated with how it works.

Hi,

To clarify it: I'm doing a full body workout H - L - M 3 times a week, something very similar to what Bill Starr recommends: 5x5 ramped on heavy days, 3x5 on light and 3x5 +2x3 on medium days for the squat. I've just highlighted the pressing part. I also deadlift on the heavy day for 5s or 3s, and do power cleans on medium, with chins on light day.

So according to your recommendation, you'd press 5x5 across on heavy day Monday + w. dips, then press 5 heavy singles alternated weekly with three doubles on medium day Thursday?

What about the bench press? Do them on my light day Saturday? A press grip would mean a close grip bench, so the reduced weight might fit on a light day.

I'm sorry if I sound like a parrot, just wanted to check if I get your advice correctly.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Well this particular iteration would be part of a 4 day split. You would have two other training days per week (Tues/Fri) where you did your squats and pulls. If that doesn't work for you then you can arrange it however you want.

Maybe like:

Heavy Squat + Day 1 of Press program

Light Squat + Cleans and Deadlifts

Medium Squat + Day 2 of Press program

[seti]

I see! Well, I'll keep the 3 day setup, but your suggestion is to do the press grip bench on the same day after the press singles or doubles, I get it.

I have to think about the pull programming, to accommodate this.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Just do a few sets of light squats as a warm up. Do your powercleans and then transition right into your deadlifts. Probably no need to get more complicated than that.

[seti]

Ok, but wouldn't the deadlifts be detrimental on the light day? I know there are some recommendations to separate the heavy squat and the heavy deadlift to different days, but isn't that for advanced lifters?

I'm eager to give it a shot, but I'd also like to do some chins, and that's what I usually do as pulling on light days. It might work after the deadlifts, but on the other days, weighted dips definitely kill my chins. I haven't done press grip benches, so I'm not sure how they affect chins.

On the other hand, your recommendation would definitely decrease the duration of my Heavy and Medium days, which is a good thing too (I do them before work in the morning).

How about this?

H: Squat 5x5 ramped +1 back-off, Press 5x5 accross, (what about chins here as third exercise?), Weighted dips 3x10
L: Squat 3x5 ramped, Power Clean 3x3 accross, Deadlift 1x5/1x3, Chins (if not on H day) (volume might be a bit high?)
M: Squat 3x5 + 2x3 ramped +1 back-off, Press 5x1/3x2 accross, Press grip bench 3x5

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Ok, but wouldn't the deadlifts be detrimental on the light day? I know there are some recommendations to separate the heavy squat and the heavy deadlift to different days, but isn't that for advanced lifters?

I'm eager to give it a shot, but I'd also like to do some chins, and that's what I usually do as pulling on light days. It might work after the deadlifts, but on the other days, weighted dips definitely kill my chins. I haven't done press grip benches, so I'm not sure how they affect chins.

On the other hand, your recommendation would definitely decrease the duration of my Heavy and Medium days, which is a good thing too (I do them before work in the morning).

How about this?

H: Squat 5x5 ramped +1 back-off, Press 5x5 accross, (what about chins here as third exercise?), Weighted dips 3x10
L: Squat 3x5 ramped, Power Clean 3x3 accross, Deadlift 1x5/1x3, Chins (if not on H day) (volume might be a bit high?)
M: Squat 3x5 + 2x3 ramped +1 back-off, Press 5x1/3x2 accross, Press grip bench 3x5

Well, I wouldn't deadlift on light days if I was doing the texas method where i needed to come in and set a PR on Friday's squat but it works fine on a heavy-light-medium set up, because the overall tonnage of just one set isn't that high.

I think that the way you set it up works well too. Use your instincts, you know yourself better than me.

[seti]

Hi,

Just back from the first Medium day iteration of your advice. A couple of quick questions, if I might:

Press
176lbs 5x1 These were ok.

Press-grip Bench
176lbs 3x5 These were easy to medium.

I'll obviously microload the presses (both these and the 5x5 the other day), planning to increase by 1kg (2,2lbs), that would mean over two weeks, since next week is doubles.

Should I also microload the press-grip benches in your opinion, when necessary, to increase it every week?

The other question is about the Weighted dips. What is the reason to aim for 10-12 in those, instead of 5s for example?

Thanks in advance!

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

If the benches were easy to start with, then go up by 5 lbs until you need to microload.

Because we are already benching and pressing for sets of 5 during the week. The chest/shoulders/triceps are already being exposed to lots work at that rep range, and from the singles. Its beneficial to get some variation and dips are a good exercise to use at higher reps....sets of 10-12 with heavy weight around the waist will get you bigger.....bigger = stronger (most of the time).

[seti]

Makes good sense, thank you!

[PaulBeech]

I was in your position for a while and here was my solution.
1. I ditched the barbell and did db bench in a position that didn't hurt my shoulders.
2. Face pulls. I did these almost everyday for high reps to get my rear delts working.
3. After a month or so I started from scratch with the barbell and experimented a lot with technique until it felt pain free.
4. Kept overhead pressing.

I'm now up to 200lbs with my bench without shoulder flair up. I almost gave up on the bench press and in my journal I have things written like 'fuck bench' and 'not worth the pain.'