Boring But Big Nuances

[Slatts]

Hey Andy,

Congrats on your new digs here.

I'm a 42yo intermediate. 6'0 240lb. About 8 months into weightlifting. I started with SS, then TM, and now 5/3/1 for 2012. My 1RMs are DL/SQ/Bench of 480/440/240

I'm doing Wendlers 5/3/1 with the Boring But Big Assistance work. My log is in the Intermediate area "I'm just a plowboy...."

Anyways, the question. I believe in the program I'm on, but am not quite sure how to go about the light sets. For instance for the the bench assistance, the 50% weight for 10x5, I've alternated sets that have fast-as-I-can reps and then slower with deliberate perfect form paused at the bottom reps.

Is there an advantage to one over the other?

I have the same question for my light deadlift sets.....more touch and go fast reps versus deliberate paused and appropriately reset reps.

Have fun with this one and welcome!

Thanks.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

I never intentionally do anything slow in the gym, especially on the concentric. Perfect form...yes. Nothing wrong with pausing at the bottom of your reps....this will build tremendous strength. If I was doing the BBB template I'd probably be doing SLDLs for the 5x10 work but that is just me. Do what is working for you.

[Michael Loucas]

Hey Andy,

Congrats on your new digs here.

I'm a 42yo intermediate. 6'0 240lb. About 8 months into weightlifting. I started with SS, then TM, and now 5/3/1 for 2012. My 1RMs are DL/SQ/Bench of 480/440/240

I'm doing Wendlers 5/3/1 with the Boring But Big Assistance work. My log is in the Intermediate area "I'm just a plowboy...."

Anyways, the question. I believe in the program I'm on, but am not quite sure how to go about the light sets. For instance for the the bench assistance, the 50% weight for 10x5, I've alternated sets that have fast-as-I-can reps and then slower with deliberate perfect form paused at the bottom reps.

Is there an advantage to one over the other?

I have the same question for my light deadlift sets.....more touch and go fast reps versus deliberate paused and appropriately reset reps.

Have fun with this one and welcome!

Thanks.

I do all my BBB sets with a fat bar except squat. I do the reps fast while also keeping to good form. For my deadlifts I do as much as I can with double overhand, before switching to mixed. Also I do all my deadlift reps from a dead stop (mainly because I have to regrip after each rep, but also because I don't do touch and go). I'm finishing up my first cycle now at 50% of my training max, going to do 60% for the next cycle, and 70% for the 3rd.

[Slatts]

I never intentionally do anything slow in the gym, especially on the concentric. Perfect form...yes. Nothing wrong with pausing at the bottom of your reps....this will build tremendous strength. If I was doing the BBB template I'd probably be doing SLDLs for the 5x10 work but that is just me. Do what is working for you.

Thanks for the response.. What is "SLDL"?

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Stiff Leg Deadlift

[Slatts]

Thanks. That's a new one to me. I checked it out and seems simple enough. Is there any difference between that and a straight leg dead lift?

Also, the SLDL seems to hit the same areas as a good morning would. Any advantage in working in good mornings?

[Valhall]

Stiff Leg Deadlift
Or NSLDL as Bill Starr would call it, Nearly Stiff Leg Deadlift :P

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Straight leg kind of a misnomber because there is a little knee flexion but it doesnt move....so not straight...but stiff.

Goodmornings are infinitely harder although you will use lighter weights with them. I get ALOT more sore in hamstrings and erectors from GMs than SLDLs.

[Mcpie]

I do all my BBB sets with a fat bar except squat. I do the reps fast while also keeping to good form. For my deadlifts I do as much as I can with double overhand, before switching to mixed. Also I do all my deadlift reps from a dead stop (mainly because I have to regrip after each rep, but also because I don't do touch and go). I'm finishing up my first cycle now at 50% of my training max, going to do 60% for the next cycle, and 70% for the 3rd.

Not that I'm anyone important, but I'd really caution against 70% of your training max for a 5x10. I don't feel like opening the PDF right now but I think Wendler stops at 60(65?), and trust me, on Squat/DL day, even that is going to drive you into the ground.

Remember that by month 3, you're generally adding to your old max/actually getting into heavy weights relative to your strength. Going nuts on accessory could harm your progress.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Not that I'm anyone important, but I'd really caution against 70% of your training max for a 5x10. I don't feel like opening the PDF right now but I think Wendler stops at 60(65?), and trust me, on Squat/DL day, even that is going to drive you into the ground.

Remember that by month 3, you're generally adding to your old max/actually getting into heavy weights relative to your strength. Going nuts on accessory could harm your progress.

I guess 70% of training max on this program is like 60% of your actual 1rM, right?? That's probably pretty good. It just depends on the lifter. The stronger you are the lower that % will have to be. I actually don't like 5 x 10. I don't know if anyone needs that much volume, but this isn't my program and I will defer to Jim on his recommendations since he is stronger than me. :-)

[Rob Waskis]

Not that I'm anyone important, but I'd really caution against 70% of your training max for a 5x10. I don't feel like opening the PDF right now but I think Wendler stops at 60(65?), and trust me, on Squat/DL day, even that is going to drive you into the ground.

Wendler has since changed his recommendation slightly:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_boring_but_big_3month_challenge

[Michael Loucas]

Not that I'm anyone important, but I'd really caution against 70% of your training max for a 5x10. I don't feel like opening the PDF right now but I think Wendler stops at 60(65?), and trust me, on Squat/DL day, even that is going to drive you into the ground.

Remember that by month 3, you're generally adding to your old max/actually getting into heavy weights relative to your strength. Going nuts on accessory could harm your progress.

I'm going by this T-Nation article he wrote, in which he said the following:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_boring_but_big_3month_challenge



The Assistance Lifts



The second part of the Boring But Big Challenge is the 5 sets of 10 reps. Those that have done this – and done it correctly – know this is nothing to sneeze at (unless you're allergic to hard work and soreness). This is a brutal way to put on size, provided you do it correctly. And by do it correctly, I mean the following:

The first month of the program, perform the sets with 50% of your training max.
The second month of the program, perform the sets with 60% of your training max.
The third month of the program, perform the sets with 70% of your training max.
So after you perform your 5/3/1 squat workout, do 5 sets of 10 reps with the deadlift. You'll flip the other days as well (see workout example below). This will keep things a little less, well, boring.

You may have to do a few warm-up sets leading up to your 5x10 weight. This is fine. Just do 1-2 sets of 5 reps and then get to it. These warm-up sets don't count.
Feel free to superset the assistance work. This will shorten the workout time and keep you from sitting on your ass between sets.

I did read his book, but I thought this challenge looked more fun. We'll see how fun it is in a few months. And yeah, these numbers are off of my training max.

[Mcpie]

I guess 70% of training max on this program is like 60% of your actual 1rM, right?? That's probably pretty good. It just depends on the lifter. The stronger you are the lower that % will have to be. I actually don't like 5 x 10. I don't know if anyone needs that much volume, but this isn't my program and I will defer to Jim on his recommendations since he is stronger than me. :-)

Yeah something like 60, but keeping in mind you have just come off a full out max effort that goes one rep before failure. On squat days that set leaves me on the floor. Picking myself up and doing another 5 sets sucks. IMO 70 is overkill but I've not yet lifted enough to have much more to say than that :)

[Trei]

Not that I'm anyone important, but I'd really caution against 70% of your training max for a 5x10. I don't feel like opening the PDF right now but I think Wendler stops at 60(65?), and trust me, on Squat/DL day, even that is going to drive you into the ground.

Remember that by month 3, you're generally adding to your old max/actually getting into heavy weights relative to your strength. Going nuts on accessory could harm your progress.

Wendler actually does, in some cases (http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_boring_but_big_3month_challenge), advise to use 70% for BBB. But not as a permanent thing.


I guess 70% of training max on this program is like 60% of your actual 1rM, right?? That's probably pretty good. It just depends on the lifter. The stronger you are the lower that % will have to be. I actually don't like 5 x 10. I don't know if anyone needs that much volume, but this isn't my program and I will defer to Jim on his recommendations since he is stronger than me. :-)

What kind of volume work would you recommend in place of 5x10?

[Mcpie]

Ah I am apparently out of date. Good luck/please let me know how it goes. I just looked back at my logs and I did the first three cycles as .5, .55 and stayed at .6. I can tell you that on Squat day, the world was a spinning. The hardest lift to actually continually do .6 though, at least for me, was the press. A number of weeks I have 10, 10, 10, 10, 6-8.

I am on cycle 2 of dropping assistance in favor of Prowler/Conditioning as well as cutting back on calories a bit to lose some fat. I do not miss BBB :)

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Wendler actually does, in some cases (http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_boring_but_big_3month_challenge), advise to use 70% for BBB. But not as a permanent thing.



What kind of volume work would you recommend in place of 5x10?

I'm not here to refute or knock Jim Wendler or his program. I would think that 3 x 10 is probably plenty (especially on squats/dl) but like I said....its his program, he is a super smart guy, and much stronger than me, so if you want advice on his program it probably better to ask him.