Nearing End of Linear Progression - 20 rep?

[Slvtmong00se]

Hi everybody!
I've been doing starting strength for about 5 months now, and feel as if I am nearing the end of linear progression. Making obvious adjustments (longer rest intervals , more food, mixed grip deadlifts etc) will probably allow me to continue running the program as is for a couple more weeks.

I started out doing Stronglifts 5x5 initially for a few weeks, had already made some progress on Barbell Rows, and therefore continued to do them on SS rather than Powercleans. Also, I plan to switch to olympic lifting eventually, atleast for a few months, and figured i would learn cleaning then anyway. (Side query: does anyone have an opinion on "Strong as an Ox" olympic weightlifting program?")

Here are my current stats:
Age: 23
Height: 5 Feet, 10.5 inches
Weight: 95kg = 209 pounds (increased by 12 kg = 26.4 lbs on the program, put on significant fat too)
Squat: 125kg = 275 pounds
Deadlift: 137kg = 300 pounds
Press: 43kg = 94.6 pounds (significant layback, hard to maintain form)
Bench Press: 51kg = 112.2 pounds (Not nearly tired with this yet, could easily reach 180 or so i feel, on Linear progression)
Rows: 51kkg = 112.2 pounds

As you can see, my presses are weak, my bench could probably improve greatly while staying on the program, but i feel im nearing the end of my progression with Squats, and just yesterday, failed to even move the bar off the floor in Deadlifts at 141kg or 310 pounds...Im sure i can make smaller jumps for a while, but I need to start thinking about what to do after SS.

I was thinking of running a 20 rep squat cycle as follows:

Workout A
1x20 Squat
1x20 Pullovers
3x10 Bench
1x20 Pullovers
3x10 Rows

Workout B
1x20 Squat
1x20 Pullovers
3x10 Press
1x20 Pullovers
1x12 Deadlift

With weights for the 20 rep squat being basically 90 pounds lighter than my 5RP, with me working up to 20xCurrent 5RM in 18 workouts.

My query is:
1) Should I do something similar for the other lifts? Deload starting weight and work up to current maxes in 18 workouts?
2) OR should I start 20 repping my squats while trying LP on bench and press etc
3) Something else?

Advice, comments and constructive criticism would be appreciated.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

In just a couple of sentences......

What are your training goals in the next 6 months?

What are your training goals in the next 2-3 years?

[mlentzner]

All your numbers look a bit low to me for a young guy with good body weight - especially the deadlifts. It's normal that deads and especially squats will outrun upper body strength in SS since the lower body strength is much more emphasized.

How many resets have you done already?

[Carlos Daniel]

I'm way more concerned about his bench and press. But about the 20 rep squats, I've done just after finishing my LP. It's a good time to do it, I think. Your technique is sufficiently ingrained that form won't be all over the place after the 15th rep and you're still something of a novice, so you can increase by 5 lb increments every workout. Start light, 20 rep squats are tough.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

I'm way more concerned about his bench and press. But about the 20 rep squats, I've done just after finishing my LP. It's a good time to do it, I think. Your technique is sufficiently ingrained that form won't be all over the place after the 15th rep and you're still something of a novice, so you can increase by 5 lb increments every workout. Start light, 20 rep squats are tough.

It just depends. If you do the SS method right, by the end of the thing you are just fried, especially the squat. Usually you have been doing several weeks of just absolutely grinding out reps of weight that is damn near 5RM and the body is a mess. That's why TM works so well.....you get to back off the weight for your sets across (a welcome relief) and you only have to do one set on your heavy 5's (also a welcome relief). It might be tough for alot of guys to move into a really hard program like 20 rep squats....although your caveat about starting light is noted.

[Carlos Daniel]

It just depends. If you do the SS method right, by the end of the thing you are just fried, especially the squat. Usually you have been doing several weeks of just absolutely grinding out reps of weight that is damn near 5RM and the body is a mess. That's why TM works so well.....you get to back off the weight for your sets across (a welcome relief) and you only have to do one set on your heavy 5's (also a welcome relief). It might be tough for alot of guys to move into a really hard program like 20 rep squats....although your caveat about starting light is noted.

I see your point and it's definitely a valid one. I have however found 20 rep squat to be therapeutic in a sort of way. Whenever I've been hurt or too damn sore, doing a short and not too heavy progression with 20 reppers have helped. The key is starting light and trying to find a weight that makes you tired and feels sorta hard and going up from there. With 15 lbs a week, it gets real hard fast.

[Slvtmong00se]

@KSC:
In the next 6 months I would like to reach respectable lifts, maintain strength while learning swimming and using swimming to burn fat and become lean.
In the next 2-3 years, I would like to be as strong as I can while being lean, and see myself doing strength training only for maintenance. (somewhere along the way Id want to be able to achieve a good number on the olympic lifts - I dont know what a good number is - but I want to, because they seem fun)
NOTE: I was a sprinter before this, and have a family history of heart disease, and a long term partner who dislikes the bulky look. So being lean is an important training goal for me.

@Mlentzer
I have not had to reset anything yet. As I said, I expect to be able to run the program for a couple (2-6) more weeks. With resets, deloads etc who knows how high my lifts can get? Obviously, I will milk Linear progression for as long as I can, including microloading, etc.

@Everyone
I have an obvious fascination with 20 Rep squats because of the mental challenge. If I DO do this, what weight/rep scheme should I use on the other exercises? As I suggested in the Opening post, should I deload and increase reps for everything?

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Your rep range is dictated by your goals.

I'm not sure what you are asking me.

[Slvtmong00se]

I guess what im asking is:

1) Is it possible to simultaneously increase volume on the big three lifts in the way I've described above? I.e jumping straight from 3x5 across to 20 rep squats + 10 rep bench + 10 rep rows. Has anyone else done a similar program in the past?

2) Obviously, If i do a 20 rep cycle, a big goal is muscle size. Is there a more efficient use of training time for this goal then the procedure outlined above, given my current stats?

3) Alternatively, for instance, is it possible to switch to 20 rep squats, but keep my lagging lifts like rows and bench press at 3x5 and hit a new PR on them every workout like on SS? Can anyone who has done 20 rep routines comment on this?

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

I guess what im asking is:

1) Is it possible to simultaneously increase volume on the big three lifts in the way I've described above? I.e jumping straight from 3x5 across to 20 rep squats + 10 rep bench + 10 rep rows. Has anyone else done a similar program in the past?

2) Obviously, If i do a 20 rep cycle, a big goal is muscle size. Is there a more efficient use of training time for this goal then the procedure outlined above, given my current stats?

3) Alternatively, for instance, is it possible to switch to 20 rep squats, but keep my lagging lifts like rows and bench press at 3x5 and hit a new PR on them every workout like on SS? Can anyone who has done 20 rep routines comment on this?

If you are on SS and are going to jump to TM when you stall just do this:

Squat 3-5 x 5
Bench 3-5 x 5
Olylifts

Ligth squat 2-3 x 5
Press 3-5 x 5
Olylifts

Squat 1 x 20
Bench - 10s
Rows - 10s

Maybe you don't do it exactly this way, but you get the idea

[Tiburon]

first thing to try is a squat and dl reset. keep working your ench and your presses, DO NOT stop linear progression with those. search the board for heterosynchronicity

[mlentzner]

Just a note: Don't be in a big hurry to graduate from SS. Milk that puppy for as long as you can. It will never be as good as this again.

[Slvtmong00se]

Ok, so based on what little I know about the Texas Method, Day 3 is the new PR day, meaning Day 2 is recovery? That I get.

In the format suggested above, what sort of weights would one shoot for on day one? - 80 - 90% 5RM? Surely thats used in TM when the goal is to set a new 5RM on day 3, as opposed to a "20RM"?

Finally, how would one go about squeezing dead lifts into this? Are cleans and dead lifts supposed to strengthen one another?
Maybe I could alternate rows and deadlifts on day 3?

Also, should one ever be doing "heavy" (80-90% 5RM) deadlifts on the same day as olylifts?

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

first thing to try is a squat and dl reset. keep working your ench and your presses, DO NOT stop linear progression with those. search the board for heterosynchronicity

I don't always agree with resetting all the time. I think too many guys (sometimes me included nowadays) get in the habit of resetting all the time and I think we wind up fucking around with the same weights over and over again. That is why I don't mind making the jump to intermediate programming before we milk out every last ounce from linear progression. When you do this you wind up so fucking burnt out that progress gets stalled for a while. With a novice early intermediate I am trying like hell to get that squat up into the low 400s and that deadlift into the mid 400s as quick as possible. Fives, threes, singles, whatever, I just want to hit some big numbers and then work out the details.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Ok, so based on what little I know about the Texas Method, Day 3 is the new PR day, meaning Day 2 is recovery? That I get.

In the format suggested above, what sort of weights would one shoot for on day one? - 80 - 90% 5RM? Surely thats used in TM when the goal is to set a new 5RM on day 3, as opposed to a "20RM"?

Finally, how would one go about squeezing dead lifts into this? Are cleans and dead lifts supposed to strengthen one another?
Maybe I could alternate rows and deadlifts on day 3?

Also, should one ever be doing "heavy" (80-90% 5RM) deadlifts on the same day as olylifts?


Set your 5x5 at 90% of your 5RM and work up from there.

On a 20RM squat program, the 5 rep deads would go on the volume day.

Yes, you can oly lift and deadlift on the same day.

Deadlifts will strengthen cleans, cleans will strengthen the deadlift if your form is really crisp and you can do enough weight to drive some progress. Most guys who don't oly lift alot will never get good enough at cleans to really handle enough weight to affect their deadlifts.......in my opinion

[Tamara Reynolds]

Press: 43kg = 94.6 pounds (significant layback, hard to maintain form)

Can we talk about this please?

[Slvtmong00se]

@KSC
Thanks so much for being so helpful. Just a final clarification - the blueprint so far would have me trying to set two types of PR a week, yes? A new 5RM on Mondays and a new "20RM" on Fridays? Seems fantastic.

@mlentzer, @Tiburon
Noted, agreed, thanks.

[Tiburon]

I don't always agree with resetting all the time. I think too many guys (sometimes me included nowadays) get in the habit of resetting all the time and I think we wind up fucking around with the same weights over and over again. That is why I don't mind making the jump to intermediate programming before we milk out every last ounce from linear progression. When you do this you wind up so fucking burnt out that progress gets stalled for a while. With a novice early intermediate I am trying like hell to get that squat up into the low 400s and that deadlift into the mid 400s as quick as possible. Fives, threes, singles, whatever, I just want to hit some big numbers and then work out the details.

i agree with you, it's just that it sounds like the OP hasn't had a reset yet

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Can we talk about this please?

It is a very weak press for a young man his age.....he has acknowledged this. His issue for his bench and press most likely need some coaching help.

What do you want to talk about???

[Tamara Reynolds]

It is a very weak press for a young man his age.....he has acknowledged this. His issue for his bench and press most likely need some coaching help.

What do you want to talk about???

Well, just that. I don't want him to start changing rep schemes for bench and press until he actually figures out how to do the lifts correctly. Just acknowledging that those lifts are weak doesn't mean he has a plan. I like plans.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

I like plans too. I gave him one a few days ago. Not what I would do, but a plan nonetheless.

[Slvtmong00se]

Yeah about that....

I will need a new plan. :)

Olympic barbell not available. which means olympic lifts are out.

Also, checked bench and press form from Rippetoe DVD. Making progress again, bench feels "kinda heavy" as opposed to the "very heavy" it used to. Press seems a LOT easier, am unstuck on it.

Also, thanks to a deadlift stall, my squat and deadlift are now tied.

Finally, Im thinking of continuing linear progression till I get the 2 stalls on squats, then switching to this:
Squat: 1x20
Pull-Overs: 1x20
Bench Press: 3x5
Pull-overs: 1x20
Bent-over Rows: 3x5

Goal is to
-get upto 300 x 20 on squat
-gain mass
-need a break from deadlift, have failed too often to get the fucking thing off the ground, feel like I need to stay away from them for a while (until I develop a false, glowing memory of how much fun they were)

Thoughts?

[Slvtmong00se]

oh also,
thinking of alternating Bench and press on this new program

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

Just try it and see dude. I don't like pullovers.

[mlentzner]

Just try it and see dude. I don't like pullovers.

I was thinking of adding lying triceps extensions to my program. What is your opinion on those? (same thing?)

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

I was thinking of adding lying triceps extensions to my program. What is your opinion on those? (same thing?)

Love em. I need to be doing more of them myself.

[ritz910]

I really gotta finish the programming chapter dang it.