I Taught a 64-yo Woman to Squat, Deadlift and Press Today

[Jonathon Sullivan]

She took coaching well, and was displaying good form. Her weights weren't bad for a detrained female.

When we were done, she started crying. "For so long I thought I was...over," she said.

"Nope. You're just getting started."

I'm going to the ER now, but I think the best medicine of the day is already behind me.

[bob g]

Sully, this might be the entire forum's best post ever. Well done, sir.

[mcclamic]

Well done Sully!

[melody]

awesome!

[Carlos Daniel]

Hey Sully, please elaborate. Was she able to do a full squat with the bar or did you have to work her on the leg press before she could work with the bar? does she have some sort of athletic background?

[tertius]

Nice work, chief! You clear out all your fancy equipment in the lab, and build a lifting platform in there instead?

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Hey Sully, please elaborate. Was she able to do a full squat with the bar or did you have to work her on the leg press before she could work with the bar? does she have some sort of athletic background?

I had her start with the dry squat, just like Rip teaches it, and she went down to parallel. This was a concern, because she has some hip arthritis, but as it turned out she did fine with it. So the leg press wasn't necessary...a good thing, since I don't have one. And without any coaching at all she automatically pointed her toes out to 30 deg, let her femurs track over her feet, and came out of the hole with hip drive. She was very freaked out watching Marilyn and I do low-bar squats, but once I got her under the 10-lb bar she understood--the bar's not going anywhere. I put her on the 25-lb bar and she did fine, aside from some mild flexibity issues at her shoulder. Went just below parallel. She wanted to do the 45-lb bar but I said no. She pressed 45 lbs easy, but needed some patient coaching on her form. Like a lot of people, she wants to throw the bar behind her rather that move forward under it.

The deadlift is utterly alien to her. (Pick a heavy barbell up off the floor? What, are you crazy? Who does that? ) That will take a little more work, but we made huge progress and she pulled 85 lbs. Her form kept going to hell at the top and on the way down. It took me a bit to figure out what was wrong, until I realized it was her chest position. I cued it at the bottom of course (chest up!), but I failed to realize that her problem at the top and on the way down was that she was letting her chest down. Once I sussed it and cue'd her on it, the dead cleaned up immensely. In fact, it was kinda cool to watch how that one little cue--tap at the top of the sternum--basically unfucked her lift by 90%.

Having Marilyn there was huge. Marilyn is younger than her by 13 years, but still, she is a woman over 50, and watching her deadlift and squat big weight was a great example for our friend.

She had been very active in the past with (I think) running and nautilus and dumbells and yoga and whatnot, but had given up quite some time ago because of detraining and arthritis. Eventually she got to into the "well, now I'm too old to do anything about it" headspace. I think an hour under the bar fixed that. She was ecstatic when she left. I hope she sticks with it. We'll see.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Nice work, chief! You clear out all your fancy equipment in the lab, and build a lifting platform in there instead?

Don't tempt me. I am seriously thinking about how I can do more of this. I want to teach seniors how to squat. I'm just glad my first foray wasn't a disaster.

[Kyle Aaron]

It's a great feeling, isn't it?

I'd just note that the feelings of surprise at competence are not confined to older people (whatever you call "older"). There are people of 30 or so who have not done a squat since they were toddlers.

[Simma Park]

Amazing post.

Side note: I haven't coached any seniors, but I've taught people from age 14 through middle age, and I've found that the DL usually poses more coaching challenges than the squat. I find it pretty easy to coach the squat now that I use Rip's teaching method, actually. Which is weird, because, before taking the seminar, I'd always thought of the DL as rather intuitive and the squat as much more technical. Anyway, just throwing out the possibility that her issues there may have had nothing to do with age. The DL might just be harder to learn for people who do not already have a good intuitive sense of and control over their backs. And the cues often have to be more individually tailored in the DL because the important form criteria are... less mechanically straightforward in the DL, for lack of a better way to put it at the moment.

[Kyle Aaron]

spar, my theory is that people take their movement patterns from everyday life into the gym. Most people spend most of their day seated. That is, they spend all day with their hips flexed, and when they need to bend over to pick something up, with hips already flexed they have no choice but to flex their spines, ie bend their lower back.

Come into the gym, and what do we find, when they deadlift they avoid flexing their hips and just bend their lower backs.

Because my gym lacks bumper plates, and 60kg is more than most people can start with, I've had to start people in the rack - the bar sits just below their knees, about 5" above where it'd be normally. Most people can start with 40kg, I have them work up to 70-75kg in the rack, and then they can do 60kg from the floor; the 5" extra range of motion seems to be equivalent to 10-15kg of weight.

Perhaps it's the shorter range of motion being not so demanding on their bodily awareness, perhaps it's giving them time to improve joint mobility, etc - I don't know really - but I've found greater success in beginning with rack pulls and working up to deadlifts than when I was in a gym with bumper plates and we just went straight to deadlifts.

Because I often see restrictions in dorsiflexion, lots of knee issues and so on, I've actually been able to get more people doing deadlifts than I've been able to get doing squats.

Just my experience, for what it's worth.

[mariawolters]

Sully, that is fantastic. Fan-fricking-tastic. You and Gillian should team up.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

It's a great feeling, isn't it?

It really is.

[hbriem]

Wonderful story.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Thanks, all.

This morning she squatted 50 lbs, benched 50, and pulled 115. She's on her way.

[Simma Park]

spar, my theory is that people take their movement patterns from everyday life into the gym.
[...]
Because I often see restrictions in dorsiflexion, lots of knee issues and so on, I've actually been able to get more people doing deadlifts than I've been able to get doing squats.

Just my experience, for what it's worth.

Unless someone has bony changes to the ankle from some kind of trauma, I don't see cases of restrictions with dorsiflexion affecting the squat. Same with knee issues--unless there is something structurally wrong there that needs time to heal, I don't normally get problems other than needing to be conservative with the weight. Whereas I see a general lack of awareness of what is going on in the back all the time.

But your theory might still hold true, in that maybe the population I work with (people in NYC) have fewer problems with these things because they may be walking/taking stairs more than the average person the U.S. or Australia.

[Simma Park]

Thanks, all.

This morning she squatted 50 lbs, benched 50, and pulled 115. She's on her way.

Terrific. You essentially handed someone back the keys to her own body.

[gForce]

Have her start a log on this forum. That would be fantastic!

[Michele Knaub]

Finally caught up here. Nice work, sir. I often dream of being able to help older people as well (watching my mother's decline has been wrenching) so this is very motivating.

[Gerald Boggs]

Wow! congratulations and well done.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

I'm going to send this to my mom.

I sent this to my mom, we;ll see what she says.

[Immortal_k]

Fantastic! It's wonderful hearing how a de-trained, older woman has found out how beneficial barbell training really is. Great job.

[DeeLee]

Just curious, did you take one of the SS coaching seminars and teach her using what you learned there?

I have seen many trainers having geezers doing physical therapy type exercises -- not that there's anything wrong with that BUT you would expect to see at least a handful of people branching out to squats, bench, deads, etc. after a while. Especially detrained older women who don't walk into the gym with orthopedic issues stemming from testosterone-fueled stupidity in their youth.

Very cool what you are doing!

[Kyle Aaron]

Sully, an article over on Gentilicore's blog, "Just because a doctor said it doesn't mean it's true (http://www.tonygentilcore.com/blog/just-because-a-doctor-said-it-a-response/) made me think of some of your actions and comments. The contributor (who is about to graduate medical school) writes,


If I had to sum up my experience at medical school in one sentence, I’d do so like this: I have learned about disease, but I haven’t learned about health.

Would you say that's right?

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Okay, let's try it this way (Dot defender keeps blocking my replies).

DeeLee: Yup, I got my SS coaching cert last year. Learning how to coach the lifts from Rip, Matt and Stef was crucial. It's paying off now.

Kyle: Yep, she's pretty much nailed it. We're completely missing the point.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Oh, and by the way, guys: she's already learning to clean. She went from Shit-Sandwich to Not-Half-Bad in two workouts. Low weight, of course.

Other potential elderly clients familiar with this case have already started making inquiries. This has the potential to complicate / alter my life considerably. I may have really Stepped In It.

[JStrong]

This has the potential to complicate / alter my life considerably. I may have really Stepped In It.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Nice work doc.

[Karl Schudt]

Other potential elderly clients familiar with this case have already started making inquiries. This has the potential to complicate / alter my life considerably. I may have really Stepped In It.

Or you may have just stepped into a steaming pile of Awesome! Maybe you could keep track of results and write an article.

[bob g]

This is one of my favorite threads. I look forward to the updates of your trainee's progress on the Big Medicine Program, Sully.

[yonkyogirl]

Keep us updated! I'll throw in a pretty please for some case studies. Over the next few years I'm hoping to do a FdSc, get my PT cert and become an SS coach. Older people are definitely one of the groups I want to work with.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Progress to date:

2149

(Hadn't incorporated the clean into the "increases" bar yet. She's cleaning 35x3x5 now.)

[Kyle Aaron]

Target of double bodyweight deadlift, and bodyweight bench... are those her targets, your suggested targets, or just a leftover from wherever you got the sheet?

I train a 64yo woman once a week, her most major physical issue is a previously slipped disc, L4/L5, which affected her sciatic nerve, this last flared up before Easter 2011. (Yes, we're in consultation with doctor and physiotherapist, as well her daughter is a physiotherapist and former gym member I've trained so she keeps tabs on us!) Since then she'd swum a lot for it, I'd given her basic programmes with machines etc to start her off, then bodyweight and dumbbell stuff, a couple of months back she started PT with me, we build her up slowly. She's happily doing kettlebell deadlifts with 16kg, and goblet squats and swings with 12kg, so I feel confident in moving her into the power rack next week, not for squats but rack pulls.

My gym lacks bumper plates, so pulling anything less than 60kg from the floor would require great flexibility and control. So I begin most people in the rack, the lowest safety is usually mid to high shin level. They start with the empty bar, and in the first session almost everyone can do 40kg for sets of 5, though if the person has one or more of - over 50, history of back issues, is under 50kg - then I'm happy if they manage 30kg the first time. Once people can pull 70-75kg from the rack they can pull 60kg from the floor, the extra 10cm or so is basically equal to 10-15kg, depending on the person and their leverages.

I'd be very very happy if my 64yo could pull 60kg from the floor by the end of this year. This would be around her bodyweight. A bodyweight deadlift I consider to be the minimum for a healthy adult to have a good quality of life day-to-day. If that can be achieved by someone over 50 with one or two health issues, I think that's pretty good. My experience is that if they achieve that then a lot of joint, postural etc issues are greatly reduced as problems.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Target of double bodyweight deadlift, and bodyweight bench... are those her targets, your suggested targets, or just a leftover from wherever you got the sheet?

It's a partial leftover. Oops. I made the sheet in Excel, it's undergoing constant revision. I'm in the processing of creating a master sheet for any other clients who happen to wander my way. I think I got started revising her targets (ie, .74 BW press) and then got distracted... Thanks for pointing it out.

I appreciate your perspective. I think I lucked out with this first client. She's in fairly good health (a few health issues, nothing too serious), she's highly motivated, and seems to have aptitude. I couldn't have asked for a better index case. The next one will be tougher, I'm sure.

[Kyle Aaron]

I find that everyone over the age of 30 has got some previous injury or health condition which might affect their exercise. The active ones have torn ACLs or dislocated shoulders or supraspinatus impingements or 5 previous ankle sprains (all on the same ankle, of course) and so on. The sedentary ones have herniated discs or type II diabetes or sore knees or generalised back pain, etc.

The previous injuries are always tricky, because they may not be medically significant - never causes pain, etc - but will often still affect exercise. For example, multiple ankle sprains, you might find the person's ankle is really unstable, pronates madly - do you really want to put 100kg on their back through that? So you have to be creative and have a good library of exercises in your head, as well of course as consulting with medical people who can actually help them.

We should probably ask Rip what are realistic targets for people of various ages, assuming they're basically healthy. My experience so far is that age does not much affect what the person can achieve physically, only how quickly they can achieve it. Their background in physical activity is very very important. Someone in their 50s who's always been active will be deadlifting their bodyweight in a couple of months, if they've been sedentary for 30 years, very different proposition.

Physical issues are never as important as the mental ones, though. Most people of whatever age simply won't push themselves. As they get older, they get a natural phobia of injury. They become afraid to exercise in case they hurt themselves; they prefer low function to even the chance of zero function. I find you have to be careful in the progressions, more for the sake of their minds than their bodies. Sully will have a great advantage in this over some idiot like me, he can say, "I'm a doctor, trust me."

[Jonathon Sullivan]

She took 10 days for travel and illness. Came back today and PR'd easily on every lift. She astonishes me.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Another followup:

She's learning the clean and doing very well. Squat is now 110, bench 70, deadlift 150x3.

Oh, and her doctor has now discontinued one of her blood pressure medicines, and switched her from high-dose beta blocker to low-dose lisinopril.

That is progress. I don't know which one of us is happier.

[DPMuller]

Another followup:

She's learning the clean and doing very well. Squat is now 110, bench 70, deadlift 150x3.

Oh, and her doctor has now discontinued one of her blood pressure medicines, and switched her from high-dose beta blocker to low-dose lisinopril.

So are you implying she's on the way to being stronger than me unless I keep improving AND that strength training actually is good for you? Hmmm...

Seriously - sometimes, stars just line up and great things happen. Congratulations to her and to you.

[Skander]

That's great. My mom started a strength program at age 60, and she's since broken records in her powerlifting federation (WABDL - she deadlifted 315, and probably could do more but she plays it safe). She was actually pretty detrained before she started, and I think in a weird way not having done that much exercise meant that she doesn't have nagging injuries, which might have helped speed her progress. She says she hasn't felt better in years, and really enjoys lifting more than she has any other physical activity. It helps that her coach mixes things up for her a lot - I think she'd grow impatient with a more boring program, so he gives her interesting accessory work, a good amount of conditioning, etc.

Anyway, I think it all goes to show that it's never too late to start strength training.

[Skander]

Oh, and my sister was the original person who started training her, based on a starting-strength-like template. She found it was really helpful to relate the lifts to every day tasks - my mom understood the overhead press better when she started thinking of it like opening a garage door, and she like to think of dumbbell rows as pulling a lawn mower cord.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

2386

[Kyle Aaron]

Excellent to see. Most importantly: how does she feel?

[Jonathon Sullivan]

She regularly reports sleeping better, better appetite, more energy. She sent me a long note about it the other day. She feels terrific, better than she has in years. She gets some DOMS and has a little trouble with her elbow, but her overall well-being is tremendously improved.

[Sevag]

I want to show this to my early-20s male friends who refuse to deadlift because of something they read on the back of a magazine. A 64-year-old woman getting shit done - this was great to read and you do great work.

[Kyle Aaron]

That's excellent to hear. My 64yo woman also feels much better, though she didn't have the same health issues, just a previous herniated disc and one or two other little things. I've only trained her once a week so have proceeded cautiously, she's now up to squatting the 20kg bar, doing the first full pushups of her life, and pulling 50kg from the rack. She started with just 35kg, I repeated that the following week, after that it was +2.5kg each week. I only introduced the BB squat a few weeks back, first week just teaching and getting the right depth etc, second week 3 reps for 5 sets, third week 4 reps for 5 sets, fourth (last) week 5x5.

Certainly we could have progressed faster, but I wanted to err on the side of caution for the previous back issues, and as well I wanted her to be using weights she herself was very comfortable with, so she could do them in her own workouts during the rest of the week - after all, it's not really strength if they'll never do it on their own.

Again assuming one session a week with me, I'll be happy if by the end of the year she can do squat 40kg, do 10 pushups, and pull 60kg from the floor.

I'm lucky with her in that she has a very supportive family member in her daughter. Her daughter used to come to my gym and I gave her a routine or two, she now goes somewhere else - she's a physiotherapist who's very physically active, does rock-climbing, runs half-marathons and so on. Obviously the daughter supports all this. As well, she has as her inspiration another guy who comes to the gym - it's her old high school teacher, 83yo and still doing stuff, obviously not a huge amount, but he does his own shopping and so on.

I also have a little story about a younger client recovering from cancer, not sure if it fits in this thread though.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Again assuming one session a week with me, I'll be happy if by the end of the year she can do squat 40kg, do 10 pushups, and pull 60kg from the floor.

Excellent. Your case sounds tougher than mine. I think my gal is a bit to the right of the mean...a bit stronger than the average bear. I thought we'd be going much more slowly than we are, and sometimes I have to restrain her. She gets greedy. I'm actually hoping my next client is more challenging.


I also have a little story about a younger client recovering from cancer, not sure if it fits in this thread though.


Do tell.

[Michele Knaub]

This is so heartening to read.

[Kyle Aaron]

Excellent. Your case sounds tougher than mine.
I'm not sure, I could be going slower than we need to. But when you're just exercising for general health, there's no great tearing hurry.


Do tell.
or A Cancer Patient Adds 20kg To Each Lift In 8 Weeks


The point:
(1) "Muscle memory" is real
(2) Correct movement matters a lot

Long version
It's been said many times that strength is a skill, and simply practicing a movement makes it stronger, even if you're not heavily loading it. Thus Dan John's Easy Strength programme (pick 3-6 lifts, do them for 40 days, never going above 80% 1RM) and so on.

What I discovered is that it can be even easier than we imagine, if we combine some muscle memory with some newbie gains - even if we add in cancer.

I have a friend and sometime training partner György (not his real name, he is shy), who is in his early 30s. Being of east European stock, at the same height as me he is usually 10-20kg heavier (commonly mid-90s kg), much broader, and the lifts which I take 3-6 months to get to he can usually manage in 6 weeks or so.

Last year had a big mole on his leg, it was a skin tumour, which was removed. However it was sitting on top of a lymph node, so they removed all the lymph system in his leg. After this he had localised chemo and lots of drugs, was bedridden for some time. The whole regime was several months, he is now on immune system boosters, has to wear a pressure stocking on his right leg.

He asked me to train him 2-3 times a week, which I did on the condition that he do exactly as I told him - in the past he had a tendency to say, "I feel strong today!", slap another 20kg on the bar and go for it - and get stuck in his progress.

May 9th we began, and not considering form too much, tried out his max strength. This was squat 60kg, bench 50kg, and deadlift 80kg. The form was atrocious, and he was dripping in sweat and puffing after these attempts.

I took him back to true basics.

Squat - hold onto rack, drop into deep squat, move hips in figure 8 to improve mobility
Push - plank 15" x3, pushups 5,5,5
Pull - bat wings 7.5kg 8,8,8
Hinge - Bulgarian goat belly swing -x10, 12kg 10,10
Loaded carry - farmer's walk with 15kg dumbbells

We built up from there, slow and steady. During workouts he'd usually feel fine and that he could do more, but afterwards realise it'd taken heaps of his energy. His body's recovery resources were being mostly used for something else, after all.

Some of the workouts were tough for him. All of us have good days and bad days, but the recovering cancer patient's bad days are really bad.

Eight weeks later as of 2012-07-04 he's had 18 workouts. In his last workout he did,
Barbell back squat 30kg 5,5,5
Bench press 30kg 5,5,5
Dumbbell rows 15kg 10,10,10
Below-knee rack pulls 65kg 5,5,5
Farmer's walk with 30kg dumbbells

So that's what we'd worked up to. But then he was about to go off overseas for three weeks, and being 8 weeks it seemed a good time to try out his maximum strength again.

Barbell back squat 80kg
Bench press 70kg
Deadlift 100kg

Now, these are lifts few here will think remarkable for a guy in his early 30s who weighs 95kg or so, until you remember the cancer. But what is remarkable to me is that in all our training he never went above 50% his original 1RM - but they still all improved.

This says to me two things,

(1) "Muscle memory" is real - if you've been strong before, it'll come back more quickly and easily than it went on in the first place, not only with less time but less effort and

(2) Correct movement matters a lot - maybe his strength gains came mostly just from going back to the very basics and doing lots of reps.

Certainly with newbies to training just adding a few kg to the bar every workout or every week is very effective. But those coming back after a layoff, or recovering from illness or injury, perhaps can benefit from an approach with less pushing of heavy weights, and more focus on consistency and technique.

Lastly I would say I admire his consistency. I have a few clients who've various issues, not all of them are willing to do the work to sort them out. The hardest is when you've been very capable and are now so useless compared to what you used to be able to do, it's hard to tread the same road again, and even harder to start further back than you did before.

Anyway. Strength is a skill. Really.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Excellent story, Kyle. Thanks.

And yes, the more I read in the strength science lit, the more I'm convinced that strength is a skill, and that almost all the increases during an early novice progression are in muscle memory and neuromuscular recruitment. But that's not a bad thing. Quite the opposite.

[Kyle Aaron]

Rosemary, 58kg 64yo school teacher, previous herniated lumbar discs, this morning sqautted 25kg 5x5 and deadlifted 60kg for a single.

These are not lifts I'd expect to impress anyone here. But when she started she couldn't do a single goblet squat with anywhere near good form, it was a goodmorning squat with knee valgus collapse etc. She sees me once a week, this was week 18; we could have progressed more quickly, but I like to be slow and steady when it comes to previous injuries, especially in the back. She's dedicated, repeats our workouts during the week, the session is just to step things up and/or introduce a new exercise.

Given that a quarter of people over 70 can't sit down and stand up without using forward weight shift and their hands, nor pick 5kg off the ground and walk with it, I think if she keeps this up she'll be doing well.

Her school is having everyone do a "reflections" presentation, she's doing it on "resilience" and strength is part of that obviously, she had me take pictures, if she sends them I'll post them up.

[xcardiobunny]

Rosemary, 58kg 64yo school teacher, previous herniated lumbar discs, this morning sqautted 25kg 5x5 and deadlifted 60kg for a single.

These are not lifts I'd expect to impress anyone here. But when she started she couldn't do a single goblet squat with anywhere near good form, it was a goodmorning squat with knee valgus collapse etc. She sees me once a week, this was week 18; we could have progressed more quickly, but I like to be slow and steady when it comes to previous injuries, especially in the back. She's dedicated, repeats our workouts during the week, the session is just to step things up and/or introduce a new exercise.

Given that a quarter of people over 70 can't sit down and stand up without using forward weight shift and their hands, nor pick 5kg off the ground and walk with it, I think if she keeps this up she'll be doing well.

Her school is having everyone do a "reflections" presentation, she's doing it on "resilience" and strength is part of that obviously, she had me take pictures, if she sends them I'll post them up.

Well I am impresed and hope to see the pictures. Good work!

[Karl Schudt]

This is the best thread on the whole forum.

[Kim]

Well I am impresed and hope to see the pictures. Good work!

Ditto. I have been watching this thread to see how she progresses. :)

[Kyle Aaron]

Kim, to be clear, we're talking about two different 64yo women. Sully's is making quicker progress than the one I'm working with. He has medical knowledge in spades, so he knows how hard he can push someone with physical issues. I don't have that knowledge, so I err on the side of "go slow." Few people we train are working out for a competition in three months, but for good health for today and years from now, so there's no hurry.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

And, as it happens, my lady has hit a road block. She has a chronic problem with medial epicondylitis that has recently flared up. Her doctor told her "no exercise of any kind for at least 6 weeks."

Fortunately, she's more sensible than that. I've got her on NSAIDs, ice, and fish oil, with regular massage, strapping, and gentle ROM. She's still showing up for every session. I'm having her do recumbent bike intervals, keeping her in the hi HR/glycolytic zone, dumbell presses with the unaffected arm, leg presses and ham curls, and a little low-intensity plyometric work. She's taking the opportunity to hit me up for T'ai Chi lessons. Not my specialty, but anything to keep her in the habit of training. She wants to get back under the bar very badly; it's become very important to her. We'll probably go back to the squat first, since that should put the least stress on her elbows (her rack position for the squat is excellent, if I do say so), followed by the dead with straps (which she was using already). Presses will take longer. And so will the clean, which is a REAL bummer, since her clean was really starting to look not half-bad.

So, this is a learning opportunity for both of us. And if anybody has any suggestions for training around this elbow, I'm all ears.

[Kyle Aaron]

Rosemary deadlifting 60kg, image attached. As it's a digital camera, it goes off a few seconds after you press the button, it got her just after lockout on the descent. She does need to work on the lockout though, like a lot of people scapular control isn't ideal, lot better than it was, though!

[xcardiobunny]

Rosemary deadlifting 60kg, image attached. As it's a digital camera, it goes off a few seconds after you press the button, it got her just after lockout on the descent. She does need to work on the lockout though, like a lot of people scapular control isn't ideal, lot better than it was, though!

That's great Kyle! I wish more women deadlifted at my gym. Even the guys hardly ever do it, the calf raise machine sure gets a lot of action though.

[Kyle Aaron]

You should encourage them, xcardiobunny. Just get to talking to your fellow gym members, and hold forth of the benefits of the deadlift for back health, everyday strength, and perky booty.

[Kyle Aaron]

Further to the story of Rosemary, I posted her "reflections" on my blog.

She gives a bit too much credit to her injury recovery to training with me, since before she worked with me regularly she did a lot of work on her own. What I really did was what I do with so many others who are injured or have been weak for most of their lives, I gave her permission to be badarsed.

For the newer trainers reading, an important observation is that people who've been injured, or those who are older, will often be afraid of pushing themselves significantly during physical training. They may only have 10% function, pushing themselves might get them more, but if done wrongly might injure them, and they'd rather have 10% function than 0%.

With most workout routines, we only ask, "is it effective?" But the injured or older client or athlete will ask, "is it safe?" It can take time to convince the person that what you're coaching them to do is both safe and effective.

To get and keep personal training clients we must demonstrate competence, establish trust and rapport. When working with someone with injuries, obviously competence matters - but trust is very important, and part of the programme must be things which make them mentally stronger as well as physically, so that they come to trust in the work and themselves.

What follows is her writing, she gave it as a speech to over 1,000 students and 100+ teachers at her school.


Resilience
Today’s reflection concerns resilience, its application and the need to develop our strengths as we live our lives. Within it, I will refer to habits which can be sustained to develop a sense of self fulfilment. In so saying, I affirm that it is necessary to reinforce positive habits to develop the values which allow us to face those things which we feel we can truly not cope with.

The inspiration for my reflection comes from:
The 2nd book of Timothy 1:7: “For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.”

The words within the verse have a broad application. They encourage us to take stock in ourselves and to develop a true understanding of our self worth. They require us to act on the positives we perceive within ourselves so that we can achieve our goals.

In the world of education, the concept reflects a need to understand the fundamentals of the way we approach our learning and our lives, to focus on the inadequacies that exist there and work steadily to improve, accepting responsibilities for any shortfalls which may exist. In a broader context we can make assessments concerning how we approach our lives.

To illustrate this, I would like to take you on a personal journey, one which I experienced early last year but which is continuing today. Imagine waking, on the first day of your holidays and merely trying to get out of bed. Strangely, as you attempt to place one foot on the floor, your leg and one side of your body is engulfed in excruciating pain, a pain that is so extreme you cannot achieve that simple task. Instead, all you can do is drag yourself to ask for help. Later, you are administered Pethidine as you are taken to hospital by ambulance, but even that does not diminish the intensity of your pain, neither does morphine. The process continues unremittingly through the day and increases as you are taken home by car. You face the prospect of an operation on the spine or of other intervention through a cortisone injection placed into the sciatic nerve root and into the offending disc, which is pressing on the already damaged and inflamed nerve, trapped in your spinal column.

Yes, this is an anecdote. Sadly, however, the anecdote concerns me, last year. You may remember me trying to move around the school with the aid of a walking stick. I was terrified that someone would bump me, rushing past. My fear was that I would fall and further damage an area of my back which I was told, by a specialist physiotherapist, would succumb to the same injury time and time again.

Self confidence, resilience and self belief can be a marvellous tool for us. We engender it through intelligent application. And while this concept is something we can refer to in terms of a physical context, it can be broadened to encompass other aspects of our lives.

After much work, swimming laps of the local pools, I improved enough to walk normally, and to cut out pain killers, such as Endone, (otherwise known as hillbilly heroin), which enabled me to meet my commitments reaching through the day. Increasingly, I adopted the belief that the key to developing any form of endurance and resilience at all was reliant on physical fitness

It was at this point that I met Kyle, my personal trainer. Distinguished by his four hundred meter stare, he has instilled fear yet equally, resilience in kids who were deemed at risk and were consequently recommended by the YMCA to bond by attacking the Kokoda trail. His approach was, and still does remain simple. As one of his trainees remembers - “it was cold, it was early, I had an ex-army officer staring me dead in the eyes and there was no escape.’ The trainee continued on recounting the first instruction given: “Hi guys I’m Kyle, I don’t care what your names are, get on the ground and do push ups.”

Now this might not be something which reflects the way you have been introduced to subject matter in a particular area of study, but it does strike a chord with the urgent need to become physically conditioned to embark on the Kokoda trail in a relatively short period of time and does have relevance to the development of strength training.

Strength training....training with weights. After my injury this is what I do, once a week. Kyle is my trainer. After my training I will alternate days when I work out with weights with others when I will go for a 4 kilometre run, with my dog. This is a real treat, when you consider that15 months ago I could not walk. I took some photographs of my training recently. You will note that what I am doing is a considerable effort for me, but not beyond the bounds of my strength, concentration or the application of my intelligence

Since starting my weights training, I don’t think that I have physically changed a great deal, although I am certainly much stronger. I have now been working in this way for around eighteen weeks and for me it has been quite a journey to improving physical health. What I have found particularly interesting is the association of concentration and application of intelligence with achievement of my short term goals. There is a right and wrong technique which can be employed, and to persistently lift the wrong way can cause injury. If I were to do this, my back would be seriously damaged. As it is, it has been significantly strengthened. In this way, something which might be seen as an exercise has an application in terms of learning and intelligence.

Mark Rippetoe is an American trainer who has an interesting interpretation of this. A coach of some thirty years standing, he believes that:

"One of the lessons of barbell training is that you can in fact do what you intend to do
if you just make yourself do it.
It doesn't just make your body strong; it makes your mind strong as well."

This reflects that, as I have noted, actions which are employed in lifting are learnt with care so that different areas of the body are concentrated on to develop a focussed and fluid approach. Another reference we might consider is

“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general."

Here Rippetoe develops the argument that by increasing our strength and I infer this means resilience in the face of adversity that the results are beneficial to ourselves and to the community.

Yes, a concentrated approach yields results. This has much to do with the development of power, self love and self discipline as a journey from fear and timidity, from acknowledging your weaknesses and focusing on them to make them strengths. Or stating to yourself as Kyle has so often told me: “you can do it.” Or when I say I can’t attempt a weight: “Yes you can.” How many times have I heard Kyle say this to me as I progressed to the weights I am now lifting, 10 kilo pull overs, 25 kilo squats and 60 kilo dead lifts?

Ultimately I use my example as a message to you. Identify your weaknesses, know them as part of yourselves but more importantly, defy them work on a program to improve yourself, physically and mentally. By doing so, you will become a much better person and achieve something which to be proud of.

[bowdirk]

+1

thanks

[D.W.]

Awesome.

[Gwynn]

So, this is a learning opportunity for both of us. And if anybody has any suggestions for training around this elbow, I'm all ears.

I may have some ideas. In mid June I sustained a nasty elbow injury which is on the medial side, but hesitate to call it tendonitis because it's been behaving more like a micro-tear than a chronic inflammation issue. What I have had to stay away from are movements where the elbow has to fully flex. I can flex and extend to ninety degrees easily, but pass that and it's tricky, especially if the movement is a pressing movement. I had to stop benching, pressing and cleaning entirely. However, I was able to still squat and deadlift.

I started having grip issues on the injured side, and added in RDLs once a week, at a weight I can do unstrapped. About halfway through the recovery process (maybe two months after it was really acute) I also added dumbell rows once a week, starting at a weight that was moderately heavy and increasing weekly. I did try chins, using a very high assist, but felt they were impeding my progress because I couldn't really train the top half of the movement without pain, so I dumped those.

I am now (in the last week or two) able to bench and press, but must keep the weight extremely light and I'm doing sets of 15, which I will continue to do until I stop feeling elbow pain, because I have had success in the past healing tendons with low weight high rep sets.

When I feel like I am mostly healed, I will go back to linear progress on those two lifts. I may decide to keep the RDLs and rows, and not do power cleans, because I'm seeing a great crossover on grip and lat strength from those, and power cleans are mean to my joints. I hope this is helpful to you. My issues may be entirely different from hers, but I will say that making the substitutions I made in my program helped my mental health even more than my physical strength :-)

[Kyle Aaron]

Yesterday Rosemary squatted 32.5kg 3 reps for 5 sets, benched 22.5kg 2x5, and pulled 65kg from the rack for 3x3 (after 2x5 the week before). Generally the idea is to build up the reps per set on each exercise until she can do 5x5 on SQ/BP and 5x3 on RP.

On rack pulls she'd stalled at 60-62.5kg, her grip was failing and so she got stuck doing 62.5kg 3x3, unable to complete each set in one go, having to stand up from the weight, etc. I mentioned earlier that she repeats our workouts on her own during the week. I felt that this might be too much for her to recover from on deadlifts, especially since she often works out the day before our session, so I had her just do 50kg on her own during the week. The following week 65kg 2x5 was done easily, and after that 65kg 3x3 as I mentioned. I also had her do more high-rep dumbbell rows to build her grip endurance.

I expect to do similar things with squat and bench press, for example if her squat stalls at 45kg, have her just do 30-35kg during the week, and 45+kg with me. When she's up to 70-75kg from the rack, probably I'll have her do 60kg from the rack on her own, and deadlifts just with me.

I feel that a high volume is useful for training older people, however that volume need not be heavy (whatever is heavy for that person).

Gyorgi meanwhile - remember, not older, but recovering from skin and lymphatic cancer - has been gradually moving up in weights, with squats now up to 65kg 5x3, bench 52.5kg 5x3, and deadlift 75kg 5x2. Last week we tried out his maxes, his 1RMs had gone SQ80 --> 100kg, BP 70 --> 80kg, and OHP is up to 50kg. From yesterday - Sunday - he and two other clients work out together once a week over 2 hours. They are three guys with a few interests in common and around the same strength levels, but each is good or bad at different things. It's the first time I've ever heard applause in that gym.

Both Gyorgi and Rosemary report greater wellbeing over all. As Sully's woman also shows, while vanilla SS can't be blindly applied to every person in the gym, the principles certainly can be. Everyone needs to do some sort of squat, some sort of press, and some sort of deadlift, and can progress the resistance over time, each session or week or month doing more weight, more reps or more sets than they did before.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

My girl went to see an orthopod, who started her on corticosteroids. She's afraid to lift anything. A major bump in the road, I'm afraid. I guess it had to happen sometime.

[Kyle Aaron]

It's going to happen. As I think I've said before, when training older people and/or those with serious chronic issues - even if just extreme weakness - they get afraid of injuring themselves. If they have 10% function in something, they could push themselves a bit and get 25% function - but are worried that the pushing will injure them and they'll get 0%. They'd rather have 10% than 0% function, so they refuse training.

Winning trust is very important with older or chronic issue clients, and isn't always possible, especially if their families or medical people in their lives are unsupportive. Rosemary is unusual in that her daughter is a physiotherapist who thinks a lot of physio is a sham ("no proven efficacy," etc) and who herself works out (though not a lot of strength stuff). And Rosemary's an unusually strong-willed woman, I think, very positive about life.

[Mac Ward]

My girl went to see an orthopod, who started her on corticosteroids. She's afraid to lift anything. A major bump in the road, I'm afraid. I guess it had to happen sometime.

Sully, I'm sitting in the cheap seats, trying to learn as I go...so pardon me if this is an inappropriate or stupid question.

From what I read, your bride has an elbow issue, my limited internet search shows the corticosteroids have no side effect that prevent lifting. She was squatting if I recall correctly, what on earth did this orthopod say to her this time that made her afraid to do anything?

I ask because Gillian and I train an older crowd (she more than I), and I'm always looking to have a better understanding of the ailments that this generation face.

[Myrmecia]

Magnificent, mate. Magnificent!

[Kyle Aaron]

She had an extra session today, we tested out her strength. Just singles, but squatted 45kg and deadlifted 70kg.

After that I was giving a programme to a 19 year old guy who has squatted 60kg x20, but said he wouldn't deadlift because his parents told him it was dangerous. I guess he's not as strong as a 64yo woman with a bad back.

[Kyle Aaron]

"Rosemary, you started training because you wanted to rehabilitate your back. As a 64yo woman with a deadlift 125% her bodyweight, I think we can safely say the rehab phase is over. What now?"
"I want to see how far I can go!"
"Now you're a serious lifter, you need the equipment of a serious lifter." I gave her a pair of Do-Wins.
She squatted 40kg for triples, benched 25kg and deadlifted 70kg for doubles.

[Kyle Aaron]

Today's workout for Rosemary
SQ 42.5kg 3x5
DL 70kg 3x3, 75kg x1

Her bench press is stuck, we're moving to dumbbells for a bit and some higher rep stuff to get a bit more control happening through the shoulders. The deadlift still spins me out, 133% bodyweight now, and she wasn't even grinding it out, just a "sorta max". I think her chest and shoulders are 64yo and her legs and back are 24yo.

[Kyle Aaron]

She's interested to see how far she can go, and asked me what I thought. For me the truth is I have no idea, not many women take up powerlifting for the first time in their 60s. I look at the comp records and there are lots of blank spots.

Your thoughts?

If she'd done 3+ reps squatting 40 and deadlifting 60 by the end of the year I'd've been happy, she smashed through that a couple of months ago though. I figure that lifts a healthy young woman would be happy with even if she stayed there are a fair target. April 2013 will be 12 months since she started, if she could do 60/40/100 I think that'd be awesome, bench will definitely be the most difficult though.

[Kregna]

Today's workout for Rosemary
SQ 42.5kg 3x5
DL 70kg 3x3, 75kg x1

Her bench press is stuck, we're moving to dumbbells for a bit and some higher rep stuff to get a bit more control happening through the shoulders. The deadlift still spins me out, 133% bodyweight now, and she wasn't even grinding it out, just a "sorta max". I think her chest and shoulders are 64yo and her legs and back are 24yo.

I've got a 20-something year old buddy who deadlifts barely more than this. Please bring her to my gym to make him work harder.

Good job on the coaching

[Kyle Aaron]

You may recall I've been progressing her like 40kg 3 reps x5 sets, next week 4x5, next week 5x5, then 42.5kg 3x5, etc. If the 5x5 was really hard, then 2x5 instead.

Last week she did
squats of 42.5kg 4x4, then a max set of 10.
This week I was sick and couldn't train her, she came in on her own and did
squats 45kg 5x5
so her 1RM of 6 weeks ago is now her work weight. She jumped higher than with me, I would have had her do 42.5kg 5x5 or if she seemed energetic 45kg 2x5.

She writes, "When I went to start the 45s and deads, I thought: “Wow, can I do this?”…And I could. But slower. I took about a minute between sets."
Wow, a whole minute's rest? Amazing.

And she did it without me standing around telling her what to do. To me, it's not true strength if they won't do it on their own. And ultimately that's what we all want as trainers or coaches, for people to be able to train effectively on their own.

[DPMuller]

And she did it without me standing around telling her what to do. To me, it's not true strength if they won't do it on their own. And ultimately that's what we all want as trainers or coaches, for people to be able to train effectively on their own.

Agreed... but very few people will do that, as we all know. Just makes finding the rare ones who will so special.

Thank you for continuing to share this, Kyle.

[Kyle Aaron]

Gyorgy has come to his last week of training before going off overseas here and there for three months. We've been working up to some max attempts. These are supposed to happen in a couple of days, but this week's been enough to show the trend, he's not like to do more than 10kg higher than this week.

This week he's squatted 100kg, benched 80kg, and pressed 50kg, all for doubles, 5 sets each. He's also deadlifted 140kg for a single. This is all with the stocking on his right leg to control the lymphoedema. These lifts for an adult male after several months are, most here will say, nothing special, and I agree. However for a guy in his 30s working out for general health, they're good enough, and remember this has been done at the same time as taking Interferon, an immune-boosting drug which he tells me makes him feel like he's fighting the flu all the time. As well, this is the strongest he's been in his life. So I think the lifts are not bad.

That said, your lifts go up and down over your life, and you usually won't remember the first time you pulled two plates, or whatever. Much more important and memorable is quality of life. At the beginning of the year he had 2-3 days a week where he could do stuff, after that he was tanked and had to spend the rest of the week sleeping. Now he has 5 days a week, which he attributes to his exercise.

This ties in with Sully's recent talk (http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=35371) on "compressed morbidity", that even if this stuff doesn't make you live longer, it makes you live better. This is the sort of stuff it's hard to make scientific studies on, how do you quantify quality of life? But we can say without doubt: you get stronger, you feel better.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

My lady (the one who originally started this thread) has returned after a long layoff due to elbow pain (medial epicondylitis). She still has elbow pain, despite the layoff. She had elbow pain before she ever started. She has apparently decided that she's going to have elbow pain, no matter what. She's decided she'd rather have elbow pain and be strong than have elbow pain and be weak.

She came in, grabbed her shoes from under the plate rack, shook off the chalk, put them on, and immediately pulled, squatted and benched about 85% of the 3RMs (dead 5RM) she lifted at the end of August. The only reason she didn't lift more is because I finally convinced her to stop adding weight to the bar.

I hope she sticks with it. She's a very lively person, and her attentions tend to wander (this is the pot calling the kettle black, here). She may keep coming and she may not.

But the point I wanted to emphasize is one we all should know anyway: Even for the elderly, strength is a persistent adaptation. It's one thing to know it; it's another altogether to see it. I shouldn't be, but I'm stunned.

[Oldman]

My lady (the one who originally started this thread) has returned after a long layoff due to elbow pain (medial epicondylitis). She still has elbow pain, despite the layoff. She had elbow pain before she ever started. She has apparently decided that she's going to have elbow pain, no matter what. She's decided she'd rather have elbow pain and be strong than have elbow pain and be weak.

She came in, grabbed her shoes from under the plate rack, shook off the chalk, put them on, and immediately pulled, squatted and benched about 85% of the 3RMs (dead 5RM) she lifted at the end of August. The only reason she didn't lift more is because I finally convinced her to stop adding weight to the bar.

I hope she sticks with it. She's a very lively person, and her attentions tend to wander (this is the pot calling the kettle black, here). She may keep coming and she may not.

But the point I wanted to emphasize is one we all should know anyway: Even for the elderly, strength is a persistent adaptation. It's one thing to know it; it's another altogether to see it. I shouldn't be, but I'm stunned.

This is exactly why I started lifting: I was suffering from an autoimmune illness--myasthenia gravis--that was making me weaker. I figured I might just as well suffer the illness while trying to get stronger. I hope your lifter sticks with it.

[Kyle Aaron]

But the point I wanted to emphasize is one we all should know anyway: Even for the elderly, strength is a persistent adaptation. It's one thing to know it; it's another altogether to see it. I shouldn't be, but I'm stunned.
Very true. Thus, Gyorgy had worked up to 90kg squats, got cancer and had the lymph nodes of one leg removed and all the drugs and so on that go with that - which in truth were probably more debilitating than the cancer itself - and even after that could squat 60kg, which is more than 4/5 of beginner males. Strength will even persist through cancer and the treatments for it.

What's also significant is the movement skills. A person can stop doing this stuff, and come back literally years later and still be able to squat etc well. Even more than the strength, the movement skills impress me. I've often said I wish I could film people's first workouts and show them three months later. Forgetting the weight on the bar, just compare the quality of the movement.

[hrat]

Hiya. My mum is mid fifties, ~4'11 and probably 12ish stone. She's an ex kayaker, and dislocated a shoulder rock climbing ten years ago, which never healed correctly. She also has scoliosis, kyphosis (used to be 5'1), and an old lumbar disk injury, perhaps also an SI joint issue, also pretty bad arthiritis particularly hands and spine. Worst of all, she has a PE degree from the 70s, and has depression, so doesn't take criticism well, especially from her daughter.
We have a rowing machine, bench, dumbells, and a 1'' bar with plates. I suggested planks last year, but the above mentioned SI issue flared.

So, if I can convince her to do one thing, what should it be? Deadlifts? (NB UK based- I haven't found any decent gym, or trainer worth a damn.)
Thanks

[Kyle Aaron]

hrat, sorry mate, these are things which must be judged in person and very likely with advice from a medical professional. Get her a coach, you can't coach relatives, as your post recognises.

Here's Rosemary pulling 80kg, she'd done a couple of singles already and this was just for the camera so the lockout was brief and she didn't lower it properly. Forgive the blurriness, the phone only cost me $30...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOavUdwpBbg