There IS life after an epidural: 540 lb deadlift today

[emskee]

Old Folks (and old folk hopetobes),

Back in May 2010, I posted this http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=22430

I was 53, and just gotten my first of three epidurals for a lumbar disc extrusion which took out my right leg and foot, enough pain that I was okay with dying......

MRI results at the time
1. Multilevel facet arthropathy. Degenerative disk disease at all
lumbar levels and in the lower thoracic spine.
2. Moderate narrowing of the neural foramina at L1-2, L2-3, and L3-4.
3. Moderate spinal stenosis at L3-4 and L4-5.
4. Right paracentral nuclear extrusion/herniation at L4-5, possibly
compressing the right L5 nerve root.
5. Moderate to severe narrowing of the neural foramina at L4-5 and
L5-S1.

Anyway, got the other two injections. Used a cane off and on through to the Winter of 2010 and Spring 2011. But I kept training.

About an hour ago I hit a deadlift single at 540 lbs, no belt, no suit. (Belt hurts my back when I DL: I have a spondylo-listhesis (retro) of L4 on L5 which my pain doc and I think may have been caused by the belt?)

Last three weeks of DL training went like this

3 weeks ago: 515 x 2 then 380 x 3 x 3 speed sets

2 weeks ago: 527.5 x 1 then 380 x 3 x 3 speed sets

today: 540 x 1 then 335 x 3 x 3 speed sets

Anyway, I'm 54 now (recently on another thread I posted that I am 55.....senile dementia and all that). 5'8", 205 lbs (yeah, I'm no longer a 181 or 198).

Why am I posting? Well, primarily to brag, I mean come on. But also to let all you gray haired cripples know that you probably don't have any idea what you are capable of so find something that you can push the hell out of and keep on pushing the hell out of it. Seriously. I know so many powerlifters from my day who stopped EVERYTHING at the first documented boo boo. They are rather much slugs now. So you can't do everything: become great at something! Why the hell not? I can't bench for crap after two shoulder surgeries, so I don't bench for crap. Somehow I go on.

Anyway, for you who are new to lifting, become great at something, be your own hero. For you who are coming back (maybe for the zillionth time), we are a tough bunch ain't we?

Okay, the endorphin, the adrenalin and all my other lins are leaving me so I'll stop the preach.

Mike

[b17vic]

Well done on your big pull!

[emskee]

b17vic:

Mighty decent of you, thanks.

Mike

[Mark E. Hurling]

Excellent work! Old guys rule!

[quinn]

Great job! Thanks for the inspiration.

I like this:


so find something that you can push the hell out of and keep on pushing the hell out of it.

[partyb]

VERY nice.

[bob g]

Nice, Emskee, well done and spot on.

[emskee]

You guys are alright.

Thanks

Mike

[Keith Friedman]

That is a hell of a lot of weight!

Bet it made a nice big bang when it hit the ground.

Congratulations!

[Josiah Moye]

This is really cool. I hope to be still moving big weights when I'm old and senile!

Haha good job man.

[Oldster]

What an absolutely spectacular DL PR made even more fantastic knowing the back ground of your back health.

My hat is off to you, Sir!

[emskee]

That is a hell of a lot of weight!

Bet it made a nice big bang when it hit the ground.

Congratulations!

Thanks, but no noise. Crossfitters dump deadlifts. Powerlifters put 'em down with control, part of the lift after all. No bouncing, no dropping. Respect for the dead and all that.

[emskee]

Thanks again to all you of variable geezerness! I find myself in great company on this forum.

To the not so old of you, this was me when I was 41

http://www.goheavy.net/records/viewrecordset.aspx?recordsetguid=2cf3452f-cbb7-47b2-9def-8dfb5086dd17

Please scroll down to the 198 class guy. I still hold that record.

There are single lift PL meets all over the country (not as much as in the old days, but they are there). Full meets are fun, but I gotta say that for meets which are not drug tested and which allow gear, it can be a long day and cost one a lot of money.

Raw contests under the AAU or USAPL (others) are a blast. Single lift DL or BP or BP/DL (what they often call "push pull meets") are quick and fun. Squats take infinity and are part of the reason meets can go from dawn to (almost) dusk. Especially in geared events. Sigh.

Lot of meet directors put the Masters lifters first because old folk tend to lose their mojo as the day goes on.

The comradery is great (as I remember) amongst the old guys. Good amongst the open classes, but much, much better in Masters. Everyone is so glad to not be dead and to be able to sniff ammonia with fellow graybeards. Bonding. I miss it......

This morning the wife goes "you know, if you find a DL meet somewhere out of state, I think we should do it." Maybe I'll look.

You folks should look for such things also. A full meet may be daunting. But a singlet and belt only push pull, or DL contest is a trip to the gym! Get to make new friends and see how the other guys lift. AND THERE IS A T-SHIRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, time to eat bacon.

Thanks for sharing my lift with me. Not the same as doing it at a contest (no T-shirt) but the comradery (although virtual) is here.

[keeptryn]

Mike - nice pull. Very inspirational. I have been wondering if I've been pushing it too hard lately and needed to drop the weight back a bit but you've convinced me to keep moving forward.

[Oldster]

To the not so old of you, this was me when I was 41

http://www.goheavy.net/records/viewrecordset.aspx?recordsetguid=2cf3452f-cbb7-47b2-9def-8dfb5086dd17

Please scroll down to the 198 class guy. I still hold that record.

Just..............................WOW............. ............!

[Mark E. Hurling]

Mike - nice pull. Very inspirational. I have been wondering if I've been pushing it too hard lately and needed to drop the weight back a bit but you've convinced me to keep moving forward.

Palos Heights, eh? A beautiful place tucked on the Southwest side surrounded by the forest preserves. I used to stop at an ice cream parlor called the Plush Horse on Route 7. But then again maybe that was next door Palos Park. Also a nice place.

[keeptryn]

The Plush Horse is still there. Palos Heights, Palos Park, Palos Hills - it can get confusing

[emskee]

Mike - nice pull. Very inspirational. I have been wondering if I've been pushing it too hard lately and needed to drop the weight back a bit but you've convinced me to keep moving forward.

Keeptryn,

Since 1970something, I've been a big fan of the Russians cycling approach to training after reading about Prilepin's training by percentages (basis for Louie Simmons early work and still part of his programming).

I found early in my lifting life, after about a year of lifting that I have this 5 week cycle built into me. That is I found that after 5 weeks my body would just plain get "bored" (overtrained?) and so I needed to schedule my back-off every 5 weeks. So forever I would ramp up in intensity and weight, then after 5 weeks of that I just back off to week 1 with weight added across, like maybe 2.5% - 3% (approximately equal to an additional rep added).

Now in my 50s, I find that my squats like 3 week cycles, all set and rep schemes per schedule and based. My deads I have to be careful with because they can be heavier (I deadlift about 100 pounds more than my squat). Right now, my deads are on a 10 week thing I stole off the internet somewhere also with all set and rep schemes scheduled. It has a small backward step at week 5, then it ramps up again, then falls all the way back starting over with added weight across at week 11. (Does that make any sense?) Very Russian.

My benchpress is a continuous topic of sadness, pain and embarrassment (right shoulder surgery ended poorly). I cannot overhead press due to back, neck and shoulder pathology.

Anyhow, bottom line is that I keep ramping up, then stepping back. Rip writes to such things in Practical Programming Chapter 8 "The Advanced Trainee".

See Wendlers 531 for another example. Wendler has a sane way to calculate your "projected" max which is close enough for this kind of work IMHO as this is how I have done it for decades (there are a lot of calculate-your-projected-max calculators on the internet, good enough). Bill Starr 5x5 is another example of cycling.

This cycling thing is nice since it keeps things sane because you have a template. Linear progressive training can get you in trouble (if you are a bit advanced) as you may be feeling really great for a day or a week, go all "Weider Instinctive Training Principle" and end up overtrained when you go back to normal and continue trying to push the rope.

I tried Wendler 531 but found that I had a habit of taking the last work set toooo far and getting overtrained and/or hurt. I am a maniac when left to my own designs. Wendler writes and speaks to keeping a rep or two in you on that last workset, but I have mental problems.......... Smart (sane) people would do better.

So deloading on schedule (per Rip, Wendler, Prilepin, Simmons, Starr, others) may not be "fast" but it can keep you out of trouble. It's hard to "listen to your body" when you are crazy as most of us probably are.

If you feel like you're getting fatigued, drop back. To preclude yourself from feeling like a puss or risking going too far, schedule your deloads (design or steal a cycle format) and be patient. Pushing does not have to be a continuous straight line (linear progression) but can be tactically effected through cycling.

Good luck.

I love this heavy weight shit, don't you?

Mike

[Joe Murphy]

Emskee, impressive and inspirational dead lift. And your further thoughts on cycling, etc, are very interesting to me although I'm still working out my novice linear progression stuff at 51--which is fun in its own way.

[emskee]

Joe,

When I started lifting, I did the Arthur Jones version of (I guess you could say) "starting strength". 2 times a week, Squat, bench, rows, dips....other stuff, 2 sets TO FAILURE!!!! Add weight each workout.

Sounds brutal to me now (it was) but it was a total blast because I was new and it worked like crazy for a pretty long time, I THINK about a year????? We're talking back in 1971.

Have fun, don't over train, don't get hurt.

Mike

[grichens]

This morning the wife goes "you know, if you find a DL meet somewhere out of state, I think we should do it."

Yur wife's a keeper.

[emskee]

Yur wife's a keeper.

Right!?!?!?!?!?!

(BTW, she bought me a Harley for my 40th brthday! A surprise. No-effort midlife crisis.......)

[grichens]

Just to be clear, my wife is a keeper too. Congrats on the hog...and the DL.

[emskee]

Just to be clear, my wife is a keeper too. Congrats on the hog...and the DL.

Clear it is: Here's to we who have keeper wives! Goes an awfully long way doesn't it?

[Mark E. Hurling]

Oh Hells yes. To Dearly Beloved; Minister of Finance and UnderSecretary of Defense who didn't hesitate a lick when I said I'd like to shell out $800 for one of Rip's seminars.

[grichens]

Clear it is: Here's to we who have keeper wives! Goes an awfully long way doesn't it?

Absolutely! I'm just hoping that I'm a keeper husband.

[Mark E. Hurling]

Just remember this. If she ain't happy, you ain't happy. And if she ain't happy long enough you're gonna be living in an efficiancy apartment with half your stuff.

[SQUAT_316]

Mike, congrats! Thats awesome. At 43, with a bad back, I am nearing a 400lb deadlift. Hitting a meet Aug. 4th. Deadlift only. Wondering what do you do in terms of stretching, mobility, iceing, etc?

[emskee]

Mike, congrats! Thats awesome. At 43, with a bad back, I am nearing a 400lb deadlift. Hitting a meet Aug. 4th. Deadlift only. Wondering what do you do in terms of stretching, mobility, iceing, etc?

Where???????

I stretch each morning after hot shower, the Doc has me doing upward facing dog to relieve pressure on nerve roots. That's about it.......static stretches scare me and I agree that they weaken pre workout, are good after workout but I forget.

I ice my back once in a while, mostly my right shoulder gets ice. Mobility is mostly just doing full range stuff.

I use my squat (almost always have) to be my Monday deadlift assistance. I say this because I cannot bench (shoulders) and squatting is tough on my shoulders and worse on my back than deads so I stopped doing full contests. Since my spine is frozen in spots, I cannot really do a narrow stance squat and when I try (old dog/new tricks) I rehurt my back. BUT....wide squats hit my erectors/glutes/femoral biceps hard and also stretch them out (well, not the erectors). Quads get hit, of course, but not so hard that Friday deads are compromised. Monday is 8 sets of 3 speed squat sets followed by 2-4 sets of 5 at about 15% more than I did for 3s. So like today I did 302.5 for 8 triples, 45 seconds rest between sets, followed by 3 5s at 350. I ramp for 3 weeks, add some weight to week 1 and start over.

Fridays I do deads. Conventional. I do not "get" sumo. I do that Coan/Phillipi 10 week thing, but I throw away all the assistance because it is too much for my deformed self. I follow with 3 sets of 5 in bent over row, then two sets of weighted chins to failure. I've lifted a long time so when training by percents, I'm pretty good at estimating a max.

I have always responded well to speed sets in the squat and DL. I guess a lot of people do not. When I deadlifted 630 (in a meet) as a 181 in my late 30s, I never did over 560 in a workout. ALL I did were speed sets on this 5 week cycle I got from Louie Simmons sometime in the 80s. I've known a lot of people who get hurt doing them (speed sets), muscle belly pulls and a lot of tendon soreness. But I do/did okay. Some people need to grind out a hard rep now and again so that they do not run out of gas in the middle of a second or third attempt. I found that with speed sets, I didn't even know I was doing an attempt until it was at my knees so by the time I knew it was heavy I was almost done.

I cannot take NSAIDS for soreness or inflamation due to an "allergy" (Liver damage from 18 months of high dose Naproxen Sodium Rx'ed by my ortho - woops). I have so much nerve pain that I am on inhibitory neurotransmitters which makes it kinda hard for me to get very excited in the gym, plus I need to take a"pain killer" before lifting or the electric shocks hurt too much. If I don't take such things, I cannot walk. Well, actually I just walk really funny.

So I eat tons of fish oil and pretend that this helps with inflamatory pain. I think it just makes fishermen richer and my burps oceanic.

So, as you can see, when ya get all pathological like me, my advice is probably for crap.

Right now, you're not really going to get any stronger before Aug. 4, so don't get nuts. Try to stay focused on your opener and don't wear yourself out.

What do your lifts look like now and what are you planning at opening at? First meet? Raw?

I'm excited for you. I need to hear about this!

Mike

[bob g]

I was just handed a homemade peach crisp a la mode. Yep, there's a keeper here, too.

[emskee]

Mike, congrats! Thats awesome. At 43, with a bad back, I am nearing a 400lb deadlift. Hitting a meet Aug. 4th. Deadlift only. Wondering what do you do in terms of stretching, mobility, iceing, etc?

400 is a pretty good lift. Is that your meet target? What do you weigh? Are you conventional? Do you use ice? What are your back issues? Lumbar I suppose.

I'm afraid that I am probably NOT a good resource for recovery advice as when I read over my last huge post, I seem like a psychotic, like maybe I have no business lifting at all. :)

I posted a while ago (the whole epidural thing) wherein f4thpathway called our kind "Spine Fighters". We out to start a club: deadlifting with dusted lumbar spines.

[emskee]

I was just handed a homemade peach crisp a la mode. Yep, there's a keeper here, too.



Yer a lucky guy, homemade peach crisp a la mode is a proven anabolic!

[SQUAT_316]

Mike, I'm shooting for meet PR of 410-415. BW is 270 (too fat....having success with a low carb diet). Conventional. Injury is L5/S1. Pretty much degenerative disk disease. I stretched and form roll pre-workout and ice post-workout. Spine Fighters Barbell Club....nice ring to it. Funny how everyone (family, doctors etc) tell me I should stop. Yet, it is the very thing keeping me in one piece physically and mentally.

[grichens]

...with half your stuff.

If I'm lucky. Most likely I'd get 1/4 and my lawyer gets 1/4. But I digress.

Mike (emskee), I'm 57 with shoulder issues as well (no problems with back yet, knock wood). I dabbled in OI about 20 years ago while getting my teenage kids involved at the time. I never got far personally. C&J aggravated my left shoulder. I drifted away from heavy barbell training and got caught up in my career in the mid-90's.

Though I never completely abandoned the gym, I packed on about 50 pounds (now 6' - 240). So I returned to the barbell this past winter and took up the SS exercises (in my own half-assed way).

I stuck with low bar back squats for about 2 months, but with poor external rotation in my shoulders and pec tightness, I set up healthy cases of tendonitis in my elbows and wrists. So I switched to front squats 'temporarily' until shoulder flexibility improved. Then bench pressing became a bitch so I finally consulted with a shoulder/arm ortho in June.

MRI turned up 4 (relatively minor) complaints: 1) minor SLAP lesion; 2) small acromion spur; 3) near-full-thickness tear of the supraspinatus; 4) an inflamed cyst.

I'm looking to let the ortho have a go at them in September. Is there anything you (or anyone else in this forum) would like to share about your experience(s) with your shoulder?
Much appreciated,
Gord.

[emskee]

Mike, I'm shooting for meet PR of 410-415. BW is 270 (too fat....having success with a low carb diet). Conventional. Injury is L5/S1. Pretty much degenerative disk disease. I stretched and form roll pre-workout and ice post-workout. Spine Fighters Barbell Club....nice ring to it. Funny how everyone (family, doctors etc) tell me I should stop. Yet, it is the very thing keeping me in one piece physically and mentally.

What do you plan for your opener? Where are you now in workout land?

You know, my pain guy knows that I am still lifting. He also knows that people with half the problems I have are on disability. I like this guy because he knows quite well that THE FACT THAT I CAN LIFT MORE THAN ANY OF THE PEOPLE WITH NOTHING CLOSE TO MY ISSUES, PEOPLE WHO CAN'T EVEN GO TO WORK ANYMORE MEANS THAT THE LIFTING IS GOOD FOR ME (pant...pant...pant...) I've been pretty lucky with DOCs. I had a pretty cool ortho who did took care of my early shoulder issues. I ripped fascia on one of my minor quads falling onto a sharp stick (no kidding). I go to him for shoulder injection, show him the divot in my leg. I have it wrapped. I say I'm taking a break. He says "Don't be a pussy...get back in the gym and squat!" I did and it healed in no time.


Life is a suicide mission. No one gets out alive. At some point it might just start to hurt a bit. Be a soldier and do what needs to be done. Live until you are done.

[emskee]

Mike (emskee), I'm 57 with shoulder issues as well (no problems with back yet, knock wood)........Is there anything you (or anyone else in this forum) would like to share about your experience(s) with your shoulder?
Much appreciated,
Gord.

Both shoulders trash since Army days (woops). Hill-Sachs lesions both sides, real loose with subluxation. So, I always hurt and Army put me on shrugs to tighten against subluxations and to move me away from constant grooving of the lesions. Soon I outgrow the PT department at Walter Reed's 30 lb dumbells. So they say "you're too strong, see ya." So I keep picking up heavier and heavier things until I'm shrugging in the 400s. Hurts like all hell to bench and to roll over in my sleep but I can DL all day long. I go to VA and say "can I have PT? Here is what I am doing now...." The PA, or nurse practitioner or whatever he is says I have more heart than brains, keep deadlifting and forget the PT.

Soon I'm DLing near 500. Cannot squat because of shoulder pain/instability. Learn to do wide grip low bar squats. Hurts. Find I can bench like a little girl if I wear a bench shirt. So now I can do full meets. But I am like in 15th place (15 lifters?) until DLs where I'd usually move up into 4th to 2nd place with my opener. Do single lift meets because I cannot stand even getting squeezed into the bench shirt. Now I'm pulling first places, outstanding lifters trophies, DL Nationals meet record, a couple of (short lived) state records, etc.

But shoulders continue to degenerate and are loose as hell. I get a million cortisone shots bilaterally. Finally I get a sub AC decompression left side. Great, most of the pain gone but now my left shoulder is the most unstable it has ever been and sounds like bacon frying when I move it. It slips out of joint while swinging my arm walking. But it does not hurt as much, it is just weaker and it was weak to start with. But over the years, it caught up in the hurt thing.

A few years later I have right side done. Feels good for about ten days. I pick something up, "SNAP" like a twig. Shoulder has hurt constantly since then and I hate to even wave goodbye. To quote Jim Wendler " I have a shoulder that's so messed up it hurts to even think about jerking off."

So....I can DL all day, squatting I can do but it blows (I'm finally flexible enough to do a thumbs over grip, went through same crap with wrists and elbows like you, but it went away SLOWLY after months), can't dip, benching reminds me that I am an idiot for benching again. Shoulders too tight for arms to go overhead so pressing hurts my shoulders and my lower back because I press out to the front. Bitch....bitch....bitch.....

I hope that you do very, very well Gord. I think that my problem is as the dude at the VA said, "more heart than brains" because I think my problem is me. I think that I probably could have been smart and patient and all would have been well. As it is, my shoulders are infinitely worse than they were when I was in the Army.

Let's talk DL instead....................................

[grichens]

Mike,
Thank you ever so much for sharing that. I can appreciate the satisfaction your DL is giving you. At the moment my DL is providing most of the joy I get from lifting.

Personally, I find patience the hardest thing to come by. I had decided to take the time pre/post op to lose some weight while trying to keep as much of my strength as possible - realizing this would involve walking a fine line, especially with a gimpy 57-year-old joint. But after 5 weeks and 14 lbs, I'm beginning to feel the effect of my recovery needs slamming up against my caloric deficiency.

Time to refocus on getting my shoulder healthy.

All the best,
Gord

[emskee]

Gord,

I trust that you will do well on all fronts. You sound more mature than me but being that you are like 2.5 years older than me, it is to be expected. :)

Cheers,

Mike

[SQUAT_316]

Thanks Mike. But nope, not my first meet. First meet was waaaaayyyyyy back in 92. Iron Island, which I bombed. Of course I still competed. Mediocre lifter. Never a threat. Lol. I just enjoyed the sport. Live and learn. Hit by a car in 98, never the same. I'm aiming for 420-425 in the dead. Due to the accident, I can't bench. Squat is coming back, but I'm taking slow with the disks. And I use it for this cycle as assistance. Don't take meds for fear of my liver. But I ice like hell. I probably should give up, but I can't. I feel like crap if I quit lifting. Wendler's 5/3/1 works for me. Its all I can do.

[emskee]

SWUAT_360:

JUST SAW YOUR LOG!!!! I'm still navigating these here SS waters.

That is phuqued up re the shoulder. Okay, we all ough to form the Phuqued Up Shoulders Brigade within the Spine fighters.

I imagine that you are still on track for your 425.

You got me fired up. I think I'm going to ditch today's DL wo and go for a 550 single: a mini me-only meet. We'll see. Slamming down the coffee now. I wonder if I can video it? I suppose that there is instruction on how to embed video......

Good luck boss.

[SQUAT_316]

Thanks man! Training partner is aiming for a 470 pull at the same meet.

[emskee]

Good speed to you both.

I pulled the 550 yesterday. Thanks for the inspiration.