ATG Squatting

[Dave76]

Mark,
Ass to grass squatting seems to be all the rage these days. There are many people who believe that you teach ATG squatting. Could you comment, please?

David...

[Mark Rippetoe]

Dave:

Thanks for bringing this up. Squat depth is critically important, but so is correct form. ATG-level depth most usually requires that the lumbar muscles relax the lordosis and that the hamstrings relax before extreme depth can be reached. It doesn't sound like a good idea to me that anything be relaxed in a deep squat, since doing this kills your good controlled rebound out of the bottom and risks your intervertebral discs. Those rare individuals that can obtain ass-to-ankles depth without relaxing anything might be able to get away with it, but as a general rule you should squat as deep as you can with a hard-arched lower back and tight hamstings and adductors. This depth will be below parallel, but it will not usually be "ATG".

Rip

[Dave76]

Thanks for the comments, Rip. I've been preaching against ATG squatting on another forum and have practically been labeled a heretic for doing so.

I know that you don't teach ATG squatting. I've heard it from you personally and, of course, I've read Starting Strength. The thing is, you don't come right out and say "don't do it" anywhere. Except here! Now I have have something to point at to back up my position.

Thanks again.

[MISSINGLINK]

I support you Dave76!

[VikingMan]

Question for Mark. I've always considered my squat to be ATG, but really, it's more along the lines of what you recommend. I go till my hams are touching my calves and I get that stretch reflex and then blast out of the hole. Problem though is that my lower back will generally flatten out a bit, loosing some of it's arch. What is the problem there, and how do I fix it?

Thanks.

[lylemcd]

Dave:

Thanks for bringing this up. Squat depth is critically important, but so is correct form. ATG-level depth most usually requires that the lumbar muscles relax the lordosis and that the hamstrings relax before extreme depth can be reached. It doesn't sound like a good idea to me that anything be relaxed in a deep squat, since doing this kills your good controlled rebound out of the bottom and risks your intervertebral discs. Those rare individuals that can obtain ass-to-ankles depth without relaxing anything might be able to get away with it, but as a general rule you should squat as deep as you can with a hard-arched lower back and tight hamstings and adductors. This depth will be below parallel, but it will not usually be "ATG".

Rip

and most people I've seen can't get below parallel without relaxing something and rounding out their low back so I'm not sure why you're drawing your line in the sand at another place most can't reach under normal circumstances.

if they can get the flexibility to hit parallel while staying tight, I see no reason that most (not all) can't hit full squtting (ATG is a big of exaggeration and everybody knows it, nobody touches their butt to the floor) without staying tight

I consider a slightly lumber flexion (not rounding, only flattening) completely safe and normal and see no reason why hamstrings have to relax to hit that depth.

Lyle

[Mark Rippetoe]

and most people I've seen can't get below parallel without relaxing something and rounding out their low back so I'm not sure why you're drawing your line in the sand at another place most can't reach under normal circumstances.

if they can get the flexibility to hit parallel while staying tight, I see no reason that most (not all) can't hit full squtting (ATG is a big of exaggeration and everybody knows it, nobody touches their butt to the floor) without staying tight

I consider a slightly lumber flexion (not rounding, only flattening) completely safe and normal and see no reason why hamstrings have to relax to hit that depth.

Lyle

I see the reason for your comment, the part about "hard-arched". It is sometimes easy to confuse a position cue with an anatomical position. Just had a row with a buddy about this last week, in fact. I don't usually have any problem getting good depth with a decent back position. I agree with you about decent: perfect lordotic extension is not necessary, and that's not my criteria. Decent is safe, and safe need not be perfect. Coaches who insist that perfect flexibility in the hamstrings be present before loading up the squat 1.) will never get much done with novice athletes, and 2.) ignore the value of the loaded squat as a stretch. Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for keeping me honest.

It has been my experience that most people who have decent hamstring flexibility can get below parallel if their thighs are kept out of the way; the knees should track straight over the toes, the toes should be pointed out at about 30 degrees, and this allows the hips to drop into good depth 90% of the time.

[PMDL]

I've noticed from looking at my squat vids that I get some serious hip-tuck/back rounding going on at the bottom of my squats, from parallel on down. But it's never once caused me any problems, and feels normal to me. So I've never given it much thought really.

Here's a good example:


http://www.strengthmill.com/videoconfigxmlcode/?pg=video_866_no_0

I know that, from a technique standpoint, it's not a good thing, but considering it's never really messed with me, I've not bothered doing much to correct it.

[Mark Rippetoe]

That's not a terribly offensive squat. The butt-wink Nazis don't like it, but as long as it causes no problems, I'd never yell. I'd like to see a little stiffer lumbar in a novice, but 325 x 5 done easily in a more advanced lifter is not a big deal. "The perfect is the enemy of the good", one of my favorite pithy aphorisms.

[VikingMan]

On the subject of the "butt wink", how do you fix it? I've got the same issue with my squats, but I want to do something about it, given that I've had past back issues. If I'm not mistaken, it's cause is weak hip flexors, correct? And the hams overpower the flexors at the bottom? So, if I'm approaching this correctly, the way to fix it is to focus on pushing the knees out and engaging the flexors as much as possible towards the bottom, and an increased emphasis on abdominal/flexor work. Thoughts?

Also, do your athletes ever struggle with tightness in the lower back? I've been having issues with that for quite some time. What is generally it's cause, and what do you usually do about it? I'm finding that HEAVY abdominal work and a reverse hyper seem to be having a positive impact on it, but wanted to get your opinion. I also have an ortho appointment coming up, but the best sports doc I could find can't see me till October.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Okay, someone needs to explain to me how weak hip flexors are involved in this. How is it that resisting the load on a heavy bar as you perform an eccentric contraction down to the bottom of your squat involves active hip flexion? Yes, the hips and knees are coming into the position of flexion, but do you think you are actually pulling 405 down into the bottom with your hip flexors? I thought the weight pushed you down. Or is there some arcane, esoteric aspect of biomechanics that eludes me here? I see these comments occasionally, and it appears to me that we are using our hip extensors rather thoroughly when we squat, and that the hip flexor muscles (flexion in this case being the proximal function of these muscles, the rectus femoris, sartorius, and tensor fascia latae) are working distally to resist knee flexion, and then to actively extend the knee.

But I could be wrong.

As for fixing butt wink, it usually involves stretching out tight hamstrings, the primary cause of a lack of hip extension ROM. And tightness in the lower back could mean several things, from a lack of flexibility in either flexion or extension to a persistent feeling of "pump" upon initiation of work.

[p-funk]

I could be giving you an explanation to a different argument, but I think what he is trying to say is that the posterior pelvic tilt is happening due to weak hip flexors not being able to effectively hold the pelvis in a neutral position, hence the poterior tilt (active insuficiency I believe is the term I am looking for?). So, overly tight hip flexors and you have a position of lordosis (or excessive arch) and weak hip flexors and you get that posterior tilt.

But, it could just be insuficiency of the back muscles not being able to maintain the proper arch as well, as they work synergistically with the hip flexors.

However, when squatting down to that depth, it is tough to find a person who doesn't have any posterior tilt. Everyone seems to get some. I think if you are strong in that ROM, then you are strong in that ROM and if it doesn't hurt, then it probably isn't a problem, as you have developed enough strength to go through that ROM.

patrick

[VikingMan]

but do you think you are actually pulling 405 down into the bottom with your hip flexors?
Certainly not. But, hip flexors do connect from the top of the femur to the inside of the lower back, right? As you approach the bottom of the squat and the hamstrings are getting tighter, engaging the hip flexors at that point could help keep the arch, right? Maybe I'm wrong.

And I've stretched my hamstrings till I'm blue in the face and that hasn't helped the butt wink issue. Am I simply stretching wrong?


And tightness in the lower back could mean several things, from a lack of flexibility in either flexion or extension to a persistent feeling of "pump" upon initiation of work.
Totally NOT the kind of tightness I'm talking about. I mean, a week after I squat, my lower back feels tight. Not, "pumped because I just did a set of 50 reps of 45 degree hyper extenions" tight, but, "something's not quite right" tight. Know the kind of tightness I'm talking about?

[Mark Rippetoe]

I have always been of the opinion that the erector spinae were the primary muscle group involved in keeping the lumbar spine erect (and extended). Trying to actively pull the lumbar into extension with the psoas at the bottom of a squat seems a rather inefficient way of doing what should have been done at the top of the descent, and what will stay there just fine if the hamstrings are sufficiently extensible and the knees are out of the way. This last point may very well be your problem -- knees out frees up depth by taking the thigh contact away from the lower trunk as the bottom is approached. An active shoving-out of the knees may fix butt-wink better than anything else you've tried. Give it a shot.