Switching deadlift with squats

[progressiveman1]

I've been doing SS for about 7 weeks and I noticed last week that my deadlift and squats were at the same weight(260lbs). I was still increasing by 10lbs each workout on deadlift until 2 workouts ago, but I can tell squats are going to need a reset probably within a few workouts. So I figured that switching deadlift with squats(deadlift 3x/week, squat workout A) would be logical.

Today I tried it out and already I found a problem. For the first time I wasn't able to increase weight on an exercise, and that exercise was standing press. In fact, I could hardly do 5 reps with 70% of my projected weight for it. I know it must have been caused by the deadlift.

Does this mean there is no way of doing deadlift every workout, switching it for squats?

[Mark Rippetoe]

If you have been doing the deadlift every workout, then you have not been doing my program. I specifically state that deadlifts CANNOT be tolerated as well as squats, and explain why in my normal lucid, easy-to-understand style. I suggest you review this material and start doing the program correctly.

[progressiveman1]

I have been doing the program correctly, I just started planning on doing deadlift every workout this week. Then on the first workout it negatively affected standing press. The reason I wanted to increase deadlift frequency is because I was trying to catch it up with the other lifts.

[Mark Rippetoe]

The deadlift should have been done after the press, so I am puzzled by this. And you have been doing power cleans?

[progressiveman1]

Since deadlift affected standing press, wouldn't standing press affect deadlift?

And no, I'm doing rows.

[Mark Rippetoe]

The press has little effect on the deadlift since the press involves far less whole-body work, and when done before the deadlift it has no material effect in a fit person.

And if you are doing rows instead of cleans you are not doing the program correctly.

[progressiveman1]

I do have reasons why I chose barbell rows instead of power cleans. Barbell rows is a much simpler movement and would make me less prone to inury during the exercise than cleans. I could learn to do cleans properly, but that would take a lot of time to study and practice it to perfect the movement, and I am on a strict deadline until my tryouts. Also, I carefully studied other people's training journals who did SS with rows or cleans, and general progress wasn't any different between the two.

[Mark Rippetoe]

So if you have "reasons" for substituting exercises into the program, it's really still the same program? Therefore I made a mistake including cleans when rows really actually work just as well? Well, alrighty then.

[progressiveman1]

Your program is your program, so if rows aren't in that template then using them is incorrect according to your program.

I know you say to use cleans. Is this conclusion based on theory, or experimentation/observation and theory?

[Mark Rippetoe]

It is based on logic, the sciences of biomechanics and exercise physiology, and 30 years of experience with the results of the program.

[Baldr]

I can't believe there is somebody debating that rows are just as effective as power cleans. They're not.

[progressiveman1]

Fine, I'll buy your book and try to learn how to do clean work. It better be good though, I'm going to have to work a few extra hours so I can afford it.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I haven't had to refund any money yet.

[Polynomial]

Fine, I'll buy your book and try to learn how to do clean work. It better be good though, I'm going to have to work a few extra hours so I can afford it.

If there's a university near you, chances are that they have a powerlifting team, or even better, an olympic weightlifting team. In my case a subset of the powerlifting team turned more to olympic lifts, and some of the guys were very happy to help me with my form. Look around and hopefully you'll find some good people to learn from as well.

Another book that we have laying around our gym (some nice person bought a copy and just left it there) is "An Introduction to Olympic-Style Weightlifting" by Cissik. Taken with a grain of salt (especially their example workout plans at the end), and combined with Starting Strength and some brainpower, it can help you better your form. Good luck! Oly lifts are addictive and fun. You walk up to the bar and from when you set your back, it'll be over in a second. You'll either rack it/catch it or you won't, but when you do, it's a great feeling.

[Alex Europa]

There are many many resources available to learn how to do cleans. There are free resources like the video section at http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html#Oly. It goes without saying that you can buy Ripp's book. You can also try to find a USA Weightlifting gym (or CrossFit affiliate) in your area. Even if you have zero interest in CrossFit, most CrossFitters are very familiar with the Olympic lifts and can at least show you the basics.

Bill Starr (use Google if you've never heard of him), recommends the power clean over almost every other exercise...

Good luck with the program.

Alex

[Amu]

Keep in mind that Starting Strength sometimes takes a different position in regards to exercise technique than would the olympic lifting book mentioned by Polynomial