Lumbar spine extension in deadlift starting position

[elVarouza]

Mark,

I searched and searched and couldn't find a clear answer to this. I'm sure it's been answered, so I'll turn it into a yes or no question so as not to waste your time. Actually, I'll have two yes or no questions.

You state in SS that one of the criteria for the deadlift starting position is that "the back is in good lumbar and thoracic extension" (pg. 122). In the chapter on the squat, on page 25, you show "the 'chest up' que for learning to place the back in extension" by placing a hand on the subject's chest and the other on the subject's lower back (pg. 25).

Question #1: is this the "extension" you are referring to when you talk about "good lumbar and thoracic extension"? (pg. 122)

Question #2: I cannot achieve this level of extension when I try to pull from the floor, yet I do not "feel" a stretch in my hamstrings (or anywhere), which would suggest to me hamstring tightness. Regardless of what I think I "feel", is the problem still hamstring tightness?

This is very problematic for me, as I haven't been able to put weight on my deadlift, and I'd really appreciate it if you can take the time to answer these questions. A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice if you don't want to waste time with a question that has already been asked.

Thank you for your time.

[Mark Rippetoe]

1. Yes.

2. No. Point your toes out with the same stance width, and let your knees follow your toes. In other words, get your femurs out of the way of your hips and see what happens.

[rikkusan]

Speaking of Lumbar spine extension....
I was reading up on squats in SS and it is written that a good squat must start with the thoracic and lumbar spine, knees, and hips in extension. My probem is if the hips are fully extended (glutes squeezed), then it's hard to keep the lumbar arch extended without leaning way back. I guess my question is then when standing up from the squat should I squeeze the glutes for full hip extension or keep my lumbar extended?

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

One page 107 of SS, you state that some people won't be able to DL because of an "inability to learn the lift."

Question is:

What do you normally see as the factors that contribute to and/or determine this inability? Reason I ask is that I have a couple of clients that I have given up on trying to teach to DL. I chalked it up to my own inability and shortcomings as a coach, but I would like to get your take on this population of non deadlifters and what, in your view, causes them to be so inept at this lift

[Mark Rippetoe]

rik: You always keep your lumbar extended. Do not tuck your ass with your glute contraction at the top. Hip extensors and the spinal erectors are in a war over control of your pelvis. The erectors must win this war.

KSC: Back when I wrote this, I thought that it was harder to teach the deadlift than I am now convinced it is. I actually have little trouble with it any more. But if you just can get a doofus trainee to pull with a good position, just have him do back extensions. If he can't exhibit any more control over his central nervous system than this, we're not losing a future Olympian.

[elVarouza]

I'll try pointing the toes out and see what happens. I've noticed I feel my femurs sometimes get in the way.

Mark, if that doesn't work for some reason, if I post a video of me trying to get into the proper starting position (or worst case, a picture), would you be able to tell me if I need to move my hips up or down or whatever based on anthropometry, or give me any more feedback? I feel that I'm like Dwayne Travelstead (short torso, long legs), but I have no experience with this type of thing, so who knows how accurate that assessment is. Mid-shin for me is still 4+ inches away from where the bar is with the bar at the proper deadlift height, and that's no exaggeration: I'm 6' 2".

I could be completely wrong with the hamstring flexibility thing too; who knows? I know I don't feel a stretch as I try to assume the starting position. The only thing I feel is my quads getting fatigued as I take 5 minutes to try to get in the proper position.

I think I might be that "doofus trainee" you speak of. I'm nearing my wits end on this; I've been trying to deadlift for three months with no progress. Unlike said doofus trainee however, I refuse to give up and do back extensions.

I guess a video is the only thing that will provide the best assessment. I'll try to get one up as soon as I can, but I'm sure you won't hold your breath :).

Thanks a lot for the reply. I'll definitely get back to you on this.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Sounds complicated. Better post the video.