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Thread: Is Olympic Weightlifting Strength Training?

  1. #11
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    • starting strength seminar april 2024
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    In the original thread, there were 2 OTC workouts posted. Does anybody know how old those are and if they are still in effect?

  2. #12
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    The dates are on the documents. Why? You think the OTC program now features heavy deadlifts?

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    I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't' feature heavy deadlifts because there are technical arguments about its specificity. However, I would be surprised if they don't implement heavy pulls (around the 100-130% of 1RM clean) at least a few times a week, especially for beginners. Is this the case? Without heavy pulls, it is very very difficult to increase your total. A few anomalies can but that surely does not speak for more athletes.

    Heavy pulls are a staple of old soviet training and current training in Taganrog. It's an even bigger staple in countries like Iran/China where you typically see very non-specific strong lifters.

  4. #14
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    You are very knowledgeable, as usual. How does one get stronger for the pull doing 100-130% of it for a deadlift?

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    It's more of an o-lifting kind of jargon. Here is an example;

    Let us say we have an athlete that is 15 years old, he probably already had some barbell experience and his numbers are a 160kg deadlift, 130kg front squat and a 1RM of a 100kg clean. You see this a lot with new lifters. In fact, you typically see an even lower clean, probably closer to 90kg. The reason is not always a problem in racking the bar after full extension. Typically, it is because their 2nd pull is weak. Yes, they can deadlift 160kg, but as soon as the knees are pushed back, then bend again to accommodate what the weightlifting community likes to call "power position", the hip extension is quite slow and the lifter cannot give enough power to the bar to it is raised to stomach level from the upper thighs. The fastest way to fix this problem is to allow the lower to properly perform clean pulls without any elbow bend with 120-130% of their clean pulls, so in this case 120kg or 130kg. American weightlifters like (not all of course) love to use the blocks but the emphasis on the entire first plus second pull is important in Eastern Europe when teaching young athletes because they believe the first pull or simply the deadlift should be trained.

    There is very little knowledge behind this. This was done during the days way before Medvedyev because they realized if you have a tiny second pull at 100kg, working it at 110-120kg (130%+ is usually given to elites) will strengthen your pull at 100kg and give you the confidence to pull 105kg then 110kg and so on, until you reach a limit. Chinese documentaries show 77kg lifters snatching 1RM of nearly 180kg and snatch pulling 260kg for a max (which is even more than 130%).

    Although you are 100% correct in the fact that pulling 130kg WILL NOT increase your deadlift of 160kg to the much needed 250. This is a valid claim and deadlifts are part of Eastern european programming. Albeit, not everyday, usually once or twice a month. Whether this has to do with PED's, I cannot say. I have no clue what PED's do. A more reasonable approach would be to pull your max (160kg) once a week for PR's, adding 1kg every week. The main key is to pull with a higher hip start (maybe even higher than you would normally clean at). This was actually the technique for the deadlift used in the deadlift today and during the 1950's, 1960's. They call it, "pull with a lever." If programs in the US included this in their programs for 3x5 every week, I would very much agree with it.

  6. #16
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    Sorry for the typos, I seem to have written lower instead of lifter several times. Not sure why.

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    I would love to see these OTC workouts. Where are they posted? I have seen videos of OTC athletes doing high rep sets of Romanian deadlifts.

    Also, how does 100%-130% of a clean max compare with what they would be doing for a strict deadlift?

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    In the other thread on this subject, you linked a video of the Chinese team training. At some point, some heavy snatch-grip pulling was done. Does the snatch grip deadlift have any value or does the LBBS and Deadlift provide enough all purpose strength and such specificity isn't required?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihatemoney123 View Post
    Yes, they can deadlift 160kg, but as soon as the knees are pushed back, then bend again to accommodate what the weightlifting community likes to call "power position", the hip extension is quite slow and the lifter cannot give enough power to the bar to it is raised to stomach level from the upper thighs.
    This is because they do not understand the mechanics of the pull. I have conveniently explained it for them in BBT3 on pp 111-124 and 201-210. Please refute it.

    Is English your first language? You don't use it well.

    Quote Originally Posted by spencerjolly View Post
    I would love to see these OTC workouts. Where are they posted? I have seen videos of OTC athletes doing high rep sets of Romanian deadlifts.

    Also, how does 100%-130% of a clean max compare with what they would be doing for a strict deadlift?
    The links are posted at the bottom of the article and in the other thread. I have no idea what they can deadlift, and neither do they. One of the national team women was here over Christmas break, and I took her up to a max deadlift to see what she could do. IIRC, it was about 250, over her 209 clean. We were both surprised.

    Quote Originally Posted by NDG View Post
    In the other thread on this subject, you linked a video of the Chinese team training. At some point, some heavy snatch-grip pulling was done. Does the snatch grip deadlift have any value or does the LBBS and Deadlift provide enough all purpose strength and such specificity isn't required?
    The grip width matters far less than the weight on the bar. Note the weight on the bar in the video.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    The links are posted at the bottom of the article and in the other thread. I have no idea what they can deadlift, and neither do they. One of the national team women was here over Christmas break, and I took her up to a max deadlift to see what she could do. IIRC, it was about 250, over her 209 clean. We were both surprised.
    250 more than her 209 clean or 250 with a 209 clean?

    My personal experience (which is not a lot) with power cleans is that soon after I started doing them I found they were strongly correlated to my deadlift. Getting my deadlift higher would increase the weight I could rack even when I neglected to do my power cleans. Of course, power cleaning is not the same thing as the full lift but I fail to see how this would not also be true for the full lift once technique becomes consistent.

    I realize this is exactly what you are trying to tell people with your 200lb deadlift vs a 500lb deadlift analogy. It just seems strange that higher level coaches are neglecting this fact in their programming when this newb, who had not touched a barbell or even heard of the oly lifts 2 years ago, could figure it out.

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