Why (Almost) Nobody Should Pull Sumo

[Mugaaz]

Good article Kyle. Liked the level of depth this went into. Nice to see someone taking a position and trying to explain it in detail, instead of another useless article just saying "do what works for you".

[LiftingToLiveToNinety]

My brother sent me this article after a discussion about how my arms were the same length as my wife's arms (despite me being 7 inches taller than her). Our discussion centered around whether or not sumo would be optimal in competition.

This article really convinced me of why conventional should be performed for training purposes (muscle gain). I think that was your primary focus (as you have said in a previous posted response). That being said, let's say an intermediate were going to enter a competition in 4-6 months. For training purposes, I can see the argument to pull conventional during the lead-up to the competition, but during the actual competition, if a sumo stance is allowed, can you give an argument why (or why not) the competition lift should be done as conventional instead of sumo (assuming the intermediate trainee has the necessary technique to do so)?

Thank you for the well written article.

[muntz]

So I occasionally coach my wife and she also sees a trainer (who is pretty good but not SSC). She's incredibly pregnant right now. Not training, but definitely exercising. I've had her pull conventional, the trainer says that due to the very significant added weight and mass at the front of her body he has her pull sumo. She only pulls in the mid-100s. But seems to handle both well.

[Marenghi]

Nice article and I agree with the general recommendation for novices to lift conventional to train a high stabilization of the spine.

However, you make a mistake in the moment arm analysis - the same a lot of people seem to make, also in the squat: You have to compare the moment arms in the relevant plane where the moments occur. In our case, its the sagittal plane RELATIVE TO THE the femur, NOT the sagittal plane of the (standing) human body, i.e. looking at the lifter from a 90° side angle and saying: "Hey, he abducted the femur, so the femur is shorter now from my view - so theres must be a shorter moment arm!". However, moment arms must be calculated in the planes the action takes place, here the sagittal plane relative to the femur.

I think it was on Bret Contreras´ site that Andrew Vigotsky has explained that for the squat and it just happens that Greg Nuckols published his deadlift guide yesterday on strengtheory [dot] com where he explained that for the deadlift as well, see section 3, Biomechanics.

[CJ Gotcher]

This has been discussed.

I must quibble: there is no "sagittal plane relative to the femur." There is the sagittal plane and there is the plane of the femur. I would agree with you: the moment arm as seen by the hip is, indeed, the moment arm in the transverse plane as expressed along the femur, and the differences in moment arm on the hip are probably not that different between the sumo and the conventional stance because the forward displacement of the knee over the bar is similar between the two stances. There may be a one-or-two inch difference, but it will be small, and because of the extra work directed in the frontal plane (to the sides), the total effort as seen by the hip extensors is probably pretty similar between the two lifts.

Still, the sumo deadlift still does not meet our criteria as a good substitute for the conventional deadlift. It shortens the range of motion and intentionally reduces the moment on the back, which we are trying to train. Although I personally don't care about this, the sumo is also an odd foot position to pull from, and I've noticed it doesn't carry over well to other pulls. Most lifters who favor the sumo deadlift (and can lift more weight there) do so because their back is the limiting factor in the lift, and although that may be appropriate for competition in the sport of powerlifting, it doesn't quite fit our goals for general strength training.

On a personal note, I have yet to work with a lifter who really needs to sumo by anthropometry (putting the hips above the knees at the start of a correct setup). I've worked with several who had been told they have to elevate the bar or sumo because their backs are "too horizontal" when they simply weren't coached in how to keep a rigid back. After years of this, these lifters became afraid of the 5-10% difference in back angle and convinced that they could never deadlift safely unless the bar was elevated up on plates. For these reasons, I haven't yet prescribed the sumo deadlift for a novice (and don't think I ever would, but I leave room for the possibility of someone with weirdly-long femurs). I might use the sumo deadlift as an intermediate accessory exercise for a powerlifter whose back is otherwise hammered, but that's about it.

Other SSC's might have different impressions here.

[John Hanley]

However, you make a mistake in the moment arm analysis - the same a lot of people seem to make, also in the squat: You have to compare the moment arms in the relevant plane where the moments occur. In our case, its the sagittal plane RELATIVE TO THE the femur, NOT the sagittal plane of the (standing) human body, i.e. looking at the lifter from a 90° side angle and saying: "Hey, he abducted the femur, so the femur is shorter now from my view - so theres must be a shorter moment arm!". However, moment arms must be calculated in the planes the action takes place, here the sagittal plane relative to the femur.

This has been discussed.

I still don't fucking get it. I don't understand why the left/right torques don't cancel each other out.

[Marenghi]

Yeah, I just wanted to clear up that point in the article: hip extension demands are fairly similar between sumo and conventional, as moment arm analysis must be in the plane of the bone/muscle concerned. Maybe the author of the arcticle could correct that point.

Personally, after the novice phase of acquiring general strength, I find the use of RDLs or SLDLs more effective for the goal of building muscle mass for intermediate lifters anyway, as it specifically targets a group of muscles over a longer ROM. Indstead of the more all-purpose and strength-oriented DL, that has a higher toll and less effectively targeted muscle groups.

[OCG]

Greg also thinks that the moment arm for the knee in the deadlift is near zero and that the quads are basically doing nothing.

If you want to learn statics and biomechanics, I would suggest finding a different source. There are many fine textbooks out there.

[Marenghi]

Well, moment arms for the knee are relatively small in the deadlift - depending on shin angle and femur position. And as Greg pointed out, a considerable portion of the quad work - thats the reason you find it improbable that the knee has a small moment arm (which factually it simply has) - is generated by reciproce hamstring activity.

Even taking that into account, muscle activity for the quad is clearly not maxed in the DL (and in addition to that the quad works only through a relatively small ROM compared to the squat for example).

I dont see any mistakes in the biomechanical analysis. If you find some, go ahead and tell.

[marcf]

For these reasons, I haven't yet prescribed the sumo deadlift for a novice (and don't think I ever would, but I leave room for the possibility of someone with weirdly-long femurs). I might use the sumo deadlift as an intermediate accessory exercise for a powerlifter whose back is otherwise hammered, but that's about it.

Other SSC's might have different impressions here.

I almost had to pull sumo for a while when I had a facet joint injury in my lower back that was making conventional pulls really painful. The change in back angle (for sumo) made it much less painful. Instead, I took a week off of deadlifting and made a huge reset once my injury resolved and went back to conventional deadlifts.

I think Garrett Blevins also switched to sumo deadlifts after injury his lower back.