Why (Almost) Nobody Should Pull Sumo

[stef]

by Kyle Mask

“Conventional deadlifts actually work the back and hips harder, and a mechanical analysis of the two styles will show us why this is the case.”

Article

[MBasic]

aw man . . .this should stir the s$%T . . .can't wait.

[FrizzyMcpressquat]

Thanks for the article and the clear analysis.

I'm asking this question from the perspective of a general strength trainee (me) and maybe even athletes on an off-season strength program:

Does the moment-arm analysis of the deadlift make the sumo style an assistance lift for the conventional deadlift?

Put another way, would the improved leverage and more vertical back angle of the sumo make this lift a possibility for the pull on a medium or a light day, especially when doing programming with 3 squat days per week. Many people can lift more sumo than conventional, for reasons discussed, but suppose you backed off 10 percent or so and used to lift to keep the pulls heavy while giving the low back a break?
[/INDENT]
"Proponents of the sumo deadlift readily concede that the conventional deadlift provides superior stimulus to the spinal erectors. The spinal erectors – indeed, all of the muscles that stabilize the torso – must work harder in the conventional deadlift to keep the horizontally-oriented torso flat."[/INDENT]

[KyleMask]

Frizzy, I suggest that if you want a medium/light day for the deadlift, simply back off the intensity and pull conventional.

The muscles that the sumo pull (probably) works better than conventional -- the adductors and quads -- are already getting worked over a longer ROM by squats. Thus, the sumo pull provides no benefit to the conventional pull not already conferred by the squat. Moreover, the sumo pull won't carry over well to the conventional because it omits the back/hamstring work that is so crucial to the conventional pull.

[afatgoat]

So by the "we're not doing deadlifts to make it easy" argument, is everyone who arches or takes a wider grip in bench press a dirty cheater too?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Might well be. Depends on your training emphasis.

[KyleMask]

So by the "we're not doing deadlifts to make it easy" argument, is everyone who arches or takes a wider grip in bench press a dirty cheater too?

Nowhere in the article did I state that everyone who pulls sumo is a cheater. In fact, I left open the option of advanced lifters using sumo for the purposes of competition since the rules allow it.

That said, what I'm advocating is that novice/intermediate lifters pull in a way that most efficiently gets them strong. Likewise, I'd say novice/intermeidate lifters need to bench in a way that most efficiently strengthens the involved musculature. Has nothing to do with cheating, but rather with intelligent selection of exercises that produce the greatest results during the earlier phases of one's training career.

[risepmj]

Amazing article.It's the article i wanted clarify in my mind.Most sumo puller should read this.Thanks Kyle.

[Harengus Rex]

Great article. But just to nitpick, are you sure the knee angle is more open in a conventional pull than in a sumo pull? In my view, the comparison of the relationships between conventional and sumo with that of the low bar squat and the high bar squat is not spot on. I would say that the relationship between the conventional style and sumo resembles the relationship between a normal stance low bar squat and the very wide stance low bar squat (multiply monolift etc.) more closely.

The very wide stance of the "monolift style" results in a more vertical back, but at the same time a more open knee angle. I would argue that the sumo deadlift style does kind of the same thing. I dont think the increased hamsting activation in the conventional style is a result of a more open knee angle, but rather a result of the legs being pointed more forward, as opposed to twisted way out to the sides in the sumo style.

To illustrate the whole knee angle thing, notice how the majority of sumo pullers seem to have quite vertical shins in the starting position (like the monolift guys in the hole of their squat).

You also state that the shoulders start higher in while lifting sumo. I dont understand how this can be the case unless the arms are more vertical while lifting sumo than while lifting conventional. How high the shoulders go should be dependent on how long ones arms are (and their degree of verticality)

I would love an explaination of why i am wrong about this if anyone would care to tell me.

(i hope i managed to get my message through, even though english is not my main language)

[KyleMask]

Harengus, thanks for the questions/comments. On the point about the shoulders, I meant that the shoulders are higher in relation to the hips at the start of the lift in sumo than in conventional, not absolutely higher off the ground. The sentence where I stated this in the article probably wasn't very clear. Basically, this just means the back angle is more vertical in sumo. You can think of the wide stance as artificially shortening the legs or as artificially elongating the arms when thinking about shoulder position in relation to hips (i.e. back angle).

Regarding the knee angle, yes, the knee angle is more open in a conventional pull. You can try measuring to confirm for yourself. If you were correct that the sumo pull involved a more open knee angle, your analogy between conventional pull/low bar squat and sumo pull/super wide squat would hold. But this isn't the case.