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Thread: Into the Great Wide Open: The Texas Method and 5/3/1

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    Default Into the Great Wide Open: The Texas Method and 5/3/1

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    by Jordan Feigenbaum

    The world of training after the novice linear progression may be the most volatile place for a lifter. Three to five months of adding weight to the bar nearly every session on the same lifts is no small task. Yet the process of regularly adding ballast and diligently doing the program does not adequately prepare the lifter for making the very important decision: What’s next?

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    Interesting article.

    In my opinion, 5/3/1 is an advanced program (aiming to drive monthly 1RM increase, load increases from week to week are all based on the same 1RM) whereas TM is an intermediate program (weekly progress).

    I personally like the 4 day TM done three days per week. Works for me as a 42 year old professional. TM burns me out, but I can make faster progress than 531.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Le Comte View Post
    Interesting article.

    In my opinion, 5/3/1 is an advanced program (aiming to drive monthly 1RM increase, load increases from week to week are all based on the same 1RM) whereas TM is an intermediate program (weekly progress).

    I personally like the 4 day TM done three days per week. Works for me as a 42 year old professional. TM burns me out, but I can make faster progress than 531.
    I disagree that 5/3/1 is an advanced program, as it does not have nearly enough training stress to drive adaptation. Similarly, for competitors (who by definition make up the largest cohort of actual advanced trainees) there is not enough exposure to drive improvement in the competition lifts. Finally, it has been my experience that advanced lifters tend to not improve their lifts linearly month to month, rather it comes in waves based on much longer stress-recovery-adaptation cycles. Neither 5/3/1 or TM are suitable for that application as written.

    However, your experience with TM on a 4 day split comports with my experience with respect to rate of improvement.

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    Default What's better than 5/3/1 in a caloric deficit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    I disagree that 5/3/1 is an advanced program, as it does not have nearly enough training stress to drive adaptation. Similarly, for competitors (who by definition make up the largest cohort of actual advanced trainees) there is not enough exposure to drive improvement in the competition lifts. Finally, it has been my experience that advanced lifters tend to not improve their lifts linearly month to month, rather it comes in waves based on much longer stress-recovery-adaptation cycles. Neither 5/3/1 or TM are suitable for that application as written.

    However, your experience with TM on a 4 day split comports with my experience with respect to rate of improvement.
    I was about to use 5/3/1 to try and retain some muscle/strength while I cut for 10-12 weeks. I run a 4-day upper/lower TM split now, hoping to loose 10-12lbs. Anyone have another idea?

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    Interesting.. I found my best intermediate gains came from training the lifts 1/t/week and keeping volume low. I was not able to build my recovery to volume and ended up at a powerlifting gym where they recommended I train the lifts once a week with very little assistance.(this was very popular at the time) Because I am stupid I have tried many times to build up volume and/or frequency only to regress back to once a week training based on squats, deads and bench. (note that as a novice I was lucky enough to be given a H/M/L Starr based program as my first real program... totally lucky and part of what led me to the Starting Strength site 20+ years later)

    Thanks for the article and all the information/help you provide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    I disagree that 5/3/1 is an advanced program, as it does not have nearly enough training stress to drive adaptation. Similarly, for competitors (who by definition make up the largest cohort of actual advanced trainees) there is not enough exposure to drive improvement in the competition lifts. Finally, it has been my experience that advanced lifters tend to not improve their lifts linearly month to month, rather it comes in waves based on much longer stress-recovery-adaptation cycles. Neither 5/3/1 or TM are suitable for that application as written.

    However, your experience with TM on a 4 day split comports with my experience with respect to rate of improvement.
    Jordan, first of all, I'm a big fan... I'm sure you have no shortage of those, but thought I'd throw my panties up on stage

    It should be said in the outset, the article was pretty hard to follow. Too much minutia/segues talking about novices/1RM, etc. The level of attention given to some basic concepts seemed unnecessary, IMO.

    I believe this is a typo, it should read 'recovered from':
    "The stress an advanced lifter produces at a meet – itself the result of months of accumulated stress and adaptation – would result in a weaker subsequent performance until the stress of that heavy attempt was unrecovered from."

    "It’s like a Texas Method cemetery on the forum these days. A large number of people report “literally dying” after a hard volume day. It should be stated again, Texas Method as written is a young man’s program. You’ve been warned."

    I resemble this remark!

    "Then there’s the deadlift, receiving one training session per week on both 5/3/1 and TM, albeit with higher volume (at lower intensity) on 5/3/1. This is suboptimal for deadlift development after the weekly increase in the deadlift stops working."

    As an older lifter, I actually LIKE that TM has reduced deadlift volume, especially because it's at a pretty high intensity. I always find DL's very hard to recover from, much more-so than squats.

    I'm glad that after trashing both TM and, to a much greater extent, 5/3/1 that you actually pointed to programs an intermediate should consider. I quickly reviewed your program and I really wish you had %'s. I hate RPE training, I'm not a touchy-feely person and I have no idea how I feel on any given day and whether I have a rep in the tank or two or three. Once you go heavy enough (as you probably well know), it all feels heavy. In my short time training, I've always been impressed with what I've been able to achieve. I started out wanted to squat 225, now I do almost double that for 5RM. I've come in on days where I thought I'm just not up for this... and after doing the exercise I'm thinking wow, that was easy.

    The one thing not addressed is programming simplicity. Texas Method template is dead simple and the progression is simple. Ways to skin it are simple (thank you ). Calculating what you should be doing is simple, etc. Addressing the gaps you mentioned and making changes to the template is also just as simple. Something to be said for simplicity.

    Having written all that, I'm going to re-read my copy of Practical Programming and pay closer attention to the programs like HLM - although at this point, I might be ready for something a bit more advanced. I was a bit more hopeful for TM, as I've made some great progress on it and was motivated but Justin Lascek's TM book/experience. It's ironic that it's on this forum that I read so much negative about TM.

    At what point do you recommend someone go to more advanced programming? Should I be considering a switch to a different intermediate program which won't burn me out as much or start investigating advanced instead? I was going to continue tweaking TM for my needs indefinitely. Thanks

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    Damn well presented articles forcing me to cerebrate......

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    Quote Originally Posted by coopercl View Post
    I was about to use 5/3/1 to try and retain some muscle/strength while I cut for 10-12 weeks. I run a 4-day upper/lower TM split now, hoping to loose 10-12lbs. Anyone have another idea?
    There is no indication to switch to 5/3/1 from a split method whilst cutting, but you probably shouldn't cut anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobi View Post
    Interesting.. I found my best intermediate gains came from training the lifts 1/t/week and keeping volume low. I was not able to build my recovery to volume and ended up at a powerlifting gym where they recommended I train the lifts once a week with very little assistance.(this was very popular at the time) Because I am stupid I have tried many times to build up volume and/or frequency only to regress back to once a week training based on squats, deads and bench. (note that as a novice I was lucky enough to be given a H/M/L Starr based program as my first real program... totally lucky and part of what led me to the Starting Strength site 20+ years later)

    Thanks for the article and all the information/help you provide.
    Thank you, Hobi.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    It should be said in the outset, the article was pretty hard to follow. Too much minutia/segues talking about novices/1RM, etc. The level of attention given to some basic concepts seemed unnecessary, IMO.

    I believe this is a typo, it should read 'recovered from':
    "The stress an advanced lifter produces at a meet – itself the result of months of accumulated stress and adaptation – would result in a weaker subsequent performance until the stress of that heavy attempt was unrecovered from."
    That is correct. Should be recovered from. Sorry for the excess minutiae, though without defining those things it would be impossible to accurately make my argument.

    "Then there’s the deadlift, receiving one training session per week on both 5/3/1 and TM, albeit with higher volume (at lower intensity) on 5/3/1. This is suboptimal for deadlift development after the weekly increase in the deadlift stops working."

    As an older lifter, I actually LIKE that TM has reduced deadlift volume, especially because it's at a pretty high intensity. I always find DL's very hard to recover from, much more-so than squats.
    I think this is intensity specific wrt recovery and I find that many of the volumephobes, if that's a thing, cannot separate deadlfts from being high intensity. This is obviously not the case, as deadlifts can be done at very light weights for more volume without overstressing the lifter. This is, in fact, one of the major ways to actually improve the deadlift.

    I'm glad that after trashing both TM and, to a much greater extent, 5/3/1 that you actually pointed to programs an intermediate should consider. I quickly reviewed your program and I really wish you had %'s. I hate RPE training, I'm not a touchy-feely person and I have no idea how I feel on any given day and whether I have a rep in the tank or two or three. Once you go heavy enough (as you probably well know), it all feels heavy. In my short time training, I've always been impressed with what I've been able to achieve. I started out wanted to squat 225, now I do almost double that for 5RM. I've come in on days where I thought I'm just not up for this... and after doing the exercise I'm thinking wow, that was easy.
    I can apologize for the RPE usage, but I find it infinitely more useful than percentages because they take into consideration all intangible factors influencing performance. Additionally, you are using RPE whether you want to or not (explicitly or otherwise) when you modify a training load based on how something feels. We've all had days where warm ups feel bad and we adjust the workload in response. The benefit of RPE is you have an actual plan in place rather than winging it.

    The one thing not addressed is programming simplicity. Texas Method template is dead simple and the progression is simple. Ways to skin it are simple (thank you ). Calculating what you should be doing is simple, etc. Addressing the gaps you mentioned and making changes to the template is also just as simple. Something to be said for simplicity.
    Sure, I agree with the simplicity. I would counter that I'm not sure if the an inappropriate, yet simple, program is > an appropriate, yet complex, program.

    At what point do you recommend someone go to more advanced programming? Should I be considering a switch to a different intermediate program which won't burn me out as much or start investigating advanced instead? I was going to continue tweaking TM for my needs indefinitely. Thanks
    I think that when training outcomes are not improving then programming changes need to start happening.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    I think this is intensity specific wrt recovery and I find that many of the volumephobes, if that's a thing, cannot separate deadlfts from being high intensity. This is obviously not the case, as deadlifts can be done at very light weights for more volume without overstressing the lifter. This is, in fact, one of the major ways to actually improve the deadlift.
    I did 5-3-1 for a couple of months last summer, but I did it with a couple of the methods from "Beyond 5-3-1" to increase volume and intensity in the main lifts. I used "Joker sets" which are basically going a set or two beyond the prescribed weight on your AMRAP set and (if you're feeling good that day) attempting to set a new rep PR and "First Set Last" where you take your first set weight and do 5x5 with that for extra volume. I did the FSL on the day of the complimentary lift, so for instance I would do the squat 5x5 on my deadlift day after my deadlift work sets.

    This is what my tonnage looked like for deadlifts. The first couple of months here I was doing an HLM routine, with 1x5 deadlifts on heavy day and 3x5 @90% of that weight on my medium day (already much more deadlift volume than SS or TM). With the 5-3-1 program you can see that overall tonnage goes up considerably from what I was doing on the HLM routine:

    UVCV7d7.jpg


    I did make some progress on my deadlift, eventually pulling a 600lb single, but I never did heavy singles before that so I can't really say how much of a strength improvement that represents. I did end up doing set of 190x5 on the press, whereas I had previously stalled at 177.5 on HLM, so that is a directly measurable strength increase. At the time I switched I was basically feeling beat up and wanted shorter, more fun workouts with some more variety beyond just doing sets of five, even if that meant slower progress, and I think it worked pretty well in that regard.

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    Great article. I can attest to conclusion: TM is brutal and unforgiving if followed by the book, at least for me in my early 30s. I ran it out for 4 months after a great LP run, and it ground me into a paste and I became very discouraged and burned out. I did it because I am stubborn and uncompromising, and I regret it. I've since found the variations of the TM shown in the book to be a big improvement, I really recommend the 4 day split Rip details in the book (where you alternate days of presses and squats/pulls) It can be run from 2-5 sessions a week and is extremely flexible and adaptable. The extra accessory work really adds some much needed variety.

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