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Thread: KONG's Training and Self-rehab

  1. #3451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Baraki View Post
    Sorry dude, I'm glad you found something that helped you train productively.
    ..And he remains likable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne_KONG_Wint View Post
    Thank you Austin. In the end, I think we can both agree that the goal is to have productive training with as little calls to St. Mary's as possible.
    Sure. I'm not sure what you meant by "the BBM way", but we're mainly working against the ideas that people are so fragile that they'll break without doing ROMWOD (which, tbh, kind of is "holding static stretches for max time"), or that every technical fault, ache, or pain is due to inadequate mobility.

    I'm not opposed to the idea of using a quick stretch to facilitate getting into a certain position (like the "low bar squat stretch" from Paul Horn's video), or - like you mentioned - getting a certain area moving the way you want. With that said, I still think that ideally, this sort of thing shouldn't be *necessary* indefinitely. The tissues should adapt to facilitate the needed positions, and at that point more specific warm up would be the focus IMO.

  3. #3453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Baraki View Post
    Sure. I'm not sure what you meant by "the BBM way", but we're mainly working against the ideas that people are so fragile that they'll break without doing ROMWOD (which, tbh, kind of is "holding static stretches for max time"), or that every technical fault, ache, or pain is due to inadequate mobility.

    I'm not opposed to the idea of using a quick stretch to facilitate getting into a certain position (like the "low bar squat stretch" from Paul Horn's video), or - like you mentioned - getting a certain area moving the way you want. With that said, I still think that ideally, this sort of thing shouldn't be *necessary* indefinitely. The tissues should adapt to facilitate the needed positions, and at that point more specific warm up would be the focus IMO.
    By "the BBM way" (which I apologize this is not specific to BBM because I do see the trend in many places), I mean the general derision of pre-workout foam rolling, lacrosse ball rolling, stretches for problem areas. The term around here for this stuff is called silly bullshit. The message is that it is completely a waste of training time and that doing it all is not and cannot be helpful because there is no evidence to support it.
    I agree that doing an entire ROMWOD at all could be a waste of time, and especially a waste of time and not useful before a training session. However, my opinion is that doing a couch stretch or shoulder internal rotation stretch or digging the lacrosse ball into my glutes as part of my warming up and loosening some of my tight spots before training is helpful to me. These are areas where I need to keep an eye on.
    As for tissues adapting to positions and this kind of work not being *necessary* indefinitely...if you've had an injury or a surgery, isn't the adaptation still kind of a workaround the damanged or non-functioning tissue? By this I mean, the remnants of the damage are always there (unless somehow surgically removed or fully healed perfectly by the body). There's usually some scar tissue. That tissue will always need a little more "care" than the non-injured tissue. So, wouldn't a lifter want to keep that in the back of their mind as part of their warm up, almost like a check list to make sure all systems are ready to go before turning on the jets?
    I would answer that as it probably wouldn't hurt to give some regular attention to those problem areas because they are going to be there forever for the most part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne_KONG_Wint View Post
    By "the BBM way" (which I apologize this is not specific to BBM because I do see the trend in many places), I mean the general derision of pre-workout foam rolling, lacrosse ball rolling, stretches for problem areas. The term around here for this stuff is called silly bullshit. The message is that it is completely a waste of training time and that doing it all is not and cannot be helpful because there is no evidence to support it.
    Just to clarify a few things, so we're on the same page.

    1) The argument is not based on the idea that there is no evidence to support it, but moreso that there is evidence that it doesn't do much at a tissue structural/physiologic level, and there is evidence that there are potential downsides (as you mentioned, with prolonged static stretching etc). In that light it becomes a bit more difficult to justify routinely spending lots of time on.

    2) The majority of people spending exorbitant amounts of time on this stuff don't necessarily have real "problem areas". I've coached these people. They are either fine and have become convinced that this stuff is some sort of essential "routine maintenance" for their bodies; OR, they are fine but have become convinced (by the typical obsession with structuralism) that they are broken, and have "problem areas" needing this sort of constant attention for the rest of their lives.

    In contrast, for people who truly need more "extremes" of mobility, like gymnasts, weightlifters, ballet, etc. - an argument could be made for stretching from the standpoint of neurological adaptation (so their brain lets them get into these positions), as it is known that a major driver of flexibility is neurologically mediated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne_KONG_Wint View Post
    As for tissues adapting to positions and this kind of work not being *necessary* indefinitely...if you've had an injury or a surgery, isn't the adaptation still kind of a workaround the damanged or non-functioning tissue? By this I mean, the remnants of the damage are always there (unless somehow surgically removed or fully healed perfectly by the body). There's usually some scar tissue. That tissue will always need a little more "care" than the non-injured tissue. So, wouldn't a lifter want to keep that in the back of their mind as part of their warm up, almost like a check list to make sure all systems are ready to go before turning on the jets?
    I would answer that as it probably wouldn't hurt to give some regular attention to those problem areas because they are going to be there forever for the most part.
    This may be a source of disagreement.

    People (especially massage therapists and PTs) throw around the term "scar tissue" too liberally, and ascribe much greater significance to it than it deserves.

    Significant soft tissue trauma like muscle tears, surgical interventions, etc. will certainly result in scar tissue formation (which we'll define as reactive fibrosis). In contrast, most common injuries like tendinitis, back tweaks, joint issues - don't. I've had issues with both elbows, both knees, a shoulder, and a few back tweaks in the past -- typical injuries, none of which actually result in scarring. After healing up, they feel completely normal and I don't have to think twice about them. On the other hand, we also have tons of folks with post-op hips, backs, shoulders, and knees -- surgeries requiring lots of slicing through soft tissues -- who routinely rehab to the point of squatting and pulling unhindered like everyone else, and they don't notice any limitation from their presumably highly scarred tissues. Their tissues adapt to the necessary positions through active, loaded ROM - the only really effective way to force this sort of long-term adaptation.

    And in general, if there is indeed significant scar tissue present (like after a muscle tear), then yes - it will be there forever. The question then becomes: is the "special attention" we are giving it with the lacrosse ball doing anything unique and significant (i.e., something beneficial that can't otherwise be done by squatting the empty bar for a couple sets)? To which I would argue, no. Therapists love talking about "breaking up scar tissue" with their hands or with various other torture devices, in a similar way to them describing "breaking up adhesions" - which are proposed to be similar areas of scar tissue. Almost as if they are dissolving it. Of course, they (and you) can do no such thing -- after all, you come back next week to train and your "scarred" area that you loosened up with the ball last week feels the same again, doesn't it?

    I appreciate the conversation, and am not trying to be a dick or even to change your mind on this matter. We have always said that if the stretching, rolling, massaging, make you feel good, and you have the time to do it -- then go for it. But to think this sort of work is a necessity, forever is generally not true and can promote dependence and even predispose to more pain in certain individuals/situations.

    For essentially everyone I've ever coached, doing the intended movement for a few extra sets with the empty bar is sufficient to get them where they need to be during the session, and other soft tissue "restrictions" affecting bar positioning, or learning a front rack tend to improve over time as the tissues adapt - even if they need a quick initial stretch to get there the first few times.

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    -- after all, you come back next week to train and your "scarred" area that you loosened up with the ball last week feels the same again, doesn't it?
    The answer to this question is , "Truuu"

    to think this sort of work is a necessity, forever is generally not true and can promote dependence
    I agree it is not a necessity but could you elaborate on how it can promote dependence?

    Forever never happens; so okay we agree on that too.

    To me, doing the PWSB, makes me feel better than a few sets of the empty bar can. So much so that I don't have to spend much or any time playing around with the empty bar. This is especially useful to me with the squat because my squats get better as the weight gets heavier on the bar. Practicing with an empty bar squatting is pretty much equal to practicing bad bad squat form. So, I prefer that PWSB bridge to allow me to move better with the lighter weights as a practice for the heavier weights. Maybe nothing much is happening on the structural level, but something does happen. Whatever it is that is happening promotes better performance for that training session than had I not PWSB'd.

    For essentially everyone I've ever coached, doing the intended movement for a few extra sets with the empty bar is sufficient to get them where they need to be during the session
    Maybe one day, you could coach me through a session and maybe I'd better see your perspective. In all honesty, every time I read the articles or the posts or even having this discussion on my thread, I get the feeling like I want to try stopping PWSB. But then when I try, (and I've tried more than once...I only highlighted the worst time where I tweaked my back at a really bad time...and that one kind of stings me), its a very gross and uncomfortable process that decreases my tolerance to the actual programmed discomfort for the day. The "controlled attack" mode is attenuated and becomes a "just make it through" mindset. I generally perform better and get better gains when I can stay in "controlled attack".

  6. #3456
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    Only did PWSB just to feel good...didn't make time to move weight because I was having too much fun with my fam. Happy Father's Day all!

  7. #3457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne_KONG_Wint View Post
    Only did PWSB just to feel good...didn't make time to move weight because I was having too much fun with my fam. Happy Father's Day all!
    Picked up more capcacin ointment. Pwsbs on the floor this am. Course too much drinking last night left me iffy. Gonna do it again tomorrow after all the lugging of sod. Think I'm in your camp man. I want to get under the bar and not waste time but taking some time to roll shit out and stretch always helps. N+1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne_KONG_Wint View Post
    The answer to this question is , "Truuu"
    Lol'd

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne_KONG_Wint View Post
    I agree it is not a necessity but could you elaborate on how it can promote dependence?
    Sure, briefly. This is becoming a big topic in the therapy world (at least, among the "good" therapists IMO). Because of the complex, multifactorial nature of pain (especially the role of the brain), they are slowly turning against more "passive" modalities of rehabilitation (like massage, needling, IASTM, etc.) because the evidence tends to show that the efficacy of these interventions is essentially entirely dependent on patient expectations - in other words, if you "believe" it's going to work, it works; if you don't, it doesn't.

    Of course, lots of people say "I don't care if it's placebo if it works for me!" -- which is a reasonable argument. However, any benefit an individual might perceive (even if completely coincidental or entirely unrelated to the intervention) can generate a sort of "classical conditioning" mechanism by which, over time, the individual may start to feel dependent on that particular modality. And I've coached folks who are like this, who essentially feel like they can't train without routine dry needling to "release" whatever muscle has been diagnosed as their "problem area", or their routine massage, chiropractic adjustment, etc. They fear they'll "break" if they don't get these things done -- and if you actually convince them to train without it, any ache, discomfort, or problem they run into immediately confirms their worst fears ("I knew my glutes weren't firing!!"). The body is just not that fragile. So instead, in recognition of this (and the brain's central role in symptoms like pain, "tightness", etc.) these therapists are working to use more active means of intervention to increase people's self-efficacy, reduce fear of movement, and increase resilience (all of which are major factors in chronic pain, and in the evolution of acute pain into more stubborn chronic pain).

    Of course, I also realize that this is also not exactly your situation ... which is why I wanted to clarify my position on the matter. I am not arguing for zero stretching, ever, under any circumstances. There are experienced lifters out there, like you, who find that they can afford to spend a few minutes doing something that makes things feel better, and then attack their training. And there are therapists who use some of these passive modalities just to get someone training in the first place, then slowly phase out the passive modality over time to emphasize the active stuff. But there are tons of people out there who are being brainwashed by the mobility gurus, the "structuralists", and the people so obsessed with biomechanics (like the Functional Patterns idiot) who can find a way to label essentially everyone "dysfunctional" and broken unless they spend the rest of their life (and money) "pre-habbing"/fixing made-up problems, or things that just need a little skilled coaching (hence the last sentence of that IG post).

    Well... turns out I couldn't really keep it brief. Needless to say, that if doing PWSB could get me a Dwayne-sized bench, you know what I'd be doing every day
    Last edited by Austin Baraki; 06-19-2017 at 08:59 PM.

  9. #3459
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    Quote Originally Posted by King of the Jews View Post
    I'm going to ask you bad bitches to say something condescending or do something else that is rude. I need some passive aggressiveness in this log.

    Dwayne, accuse Austin of taking advantage of people to make money off bullshit, just like Dr. Oz.

    Austin, accuse Dwayne of hating on light skin brothers. It will distract and confuse him, plus hints of racism are juicy.

    I'll come back in and accuse both of you of using steroids and say you have gyno.
    If you want a show, just wait for the post on the day Dwayne hits 300lbs BW. He's 295, it's coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdood View Post
    If you want a show, just wait for the post on the day Dwayne hits 300lbs BW. He's 295, it's coming.
    When we all lifting man? I need another gainz group lift day.

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