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Thread: Incorporating the half squat into an athletic program

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    I do not think partial squats are SPP. I think they are an ineffective way to train anything, because their mechanics are sufficiently different from normal human movement patterns that they are actually counterproductive.
    Dear Coach Rippetoe,

    I am confused as to how their mechanics are sufficiently different from "normal human movement patterns". Can you please clarify as to why you think this? For example, I see more similarities towards bilateral vertical jump (running or standing) and half squat rather than full squat or the squat style you teach with hips way back and shins very much perpendicular.

    Regarding dynamic correspondence, would you say your style (low bar full) covers this issue better than say a low/high bar half? If so, why?

    I am just a little bit confused regarding the "sufficiently different" comment because I have always been taught that half squatting indeed has more transfer towards vertical jumping but needs to either be phased in properly after full squats or used with extreme care.

    Thanks so much in advance.

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    . For developing primarily starting strength a weight of 60-65% of maximum is used. The exercise is performed with short concentrated explosive efforts to only move the weight but not accelerate it through the maximum range possible.
    Does mean if using a squat or bench press you would do partial reps - in a sort of pulsing manner?

    verkhoshansky
    No, it must be the normal Squat or Bench press maximal explosive effort (you must not use the shorter amplitude movements) executed with specific qualitative aim: not trying to reach the maximal speed at the end of movement, but trying to increase the speed as quickly as possible at the beginning of movement.


    Mel Siff
    There tends to be an irrational fear associated with deeper-than-parallel
    squats, even though most of this is based on theoretical analysis and is
    usually contradicted by clinical studies which show that even more knee
    injuries occur in activities which do not flex the knee anywhere near
    parallel (such as running and jumping). Others show that partial squats can
    traumatize the knees even more than full squats!


    I couldn't find anything where Zatsiorsky metions partials, but all of the training regimens I found by him where full or box squats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post

    . For developing primarily starting strength a weight of 60-65% of maximum is used. The exercise is performed with short concentrated explosive efforts to only move the weight but not accelerate it through the maximum range possible.
    Does mean if using a squat or bench press you would do partial reps - in a sort of pulsing manner?

    verkhoshansky
    No, it must be the normal Squat or Bench press maximal explosive effort (you must not use the shorter amplitude movements) executed with specific qualitative aim: not trying to reach the maximal speed at the end of movement, but trying to increase the speed as quickly as possible at the beginning of movement.


    Mel Siff
    There tends to be an irrational fear associated with deeper-than-parallel
    squats, even though most of this is based on theoretical analysis and is
    usually contradicted by clinical studies which show that even more knee
    injuries occur in activities which do not flex the knee anywhere near
    parallel (such as running and jumping). Others show that partial squats can
    traumatize the knees even more than full squats!


    I couldn't find anything where Zatsiorsky metions partials, but all of the training regimens I found by him where full or box squats.
    Try getting yourself a copy of Science and Practice of Strength Training, really good book, the half squats are referenced mulitiple times in there.

    Verkhoshansky has stated that the use of half squats could be MORE beneficial than full squats, but something to the note of the athlete needed to be adequately prepared.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Dear Emanuel Seitinger,

    to answer appropriately about the effectiveness of a training mean it is important to know the objective for which it is used, in which period of preparation and, the last but not the least, the athlete preparation level.

    As a rule, the use of strength mean (here we are talking of exercise with maximal load executed slowly) with articulation flexion angle equal to the flexion angle of competition exercise is more effective for the development of sport result.

    Nevertheless the same exercise with maximal amplitude, can assure:

    1. the increase of level of strength expression in the movements with any flexion angles used in the exercise;
    2. a more reliable strengthening, in the time, of the whole muscular chain involved in the movement .

    The half squat is without doubt more specific and more effective to develop the antigravitational strength, but this exercise needs an overload greater than the overload used in complete squat.

    For this reason to obtain the effectively, in the time, from the half squat you should minimize its potential risk of accidents. First of all, the athlete must strengthen the muscular chain involved in the movement of the half squat: the muscles of the back and the ligaments of the articulation knee.

    The complete squat allows to enforce the muscular chain and, at the same time, to develop the antigravitational strength.

    On the base of the preceding considerations, we can say that the use of complete squat is more suitable for the not high level athlete or at the beginning of training cycle of the high level athletes.

    There is a basic consideration to be done about the athlete.

    Usually the lanky athletes, as can be the jumpers or basket ball players, don’t have a upper body muscular structure very developed, as we can find in the throwers. For this reason, in these cases, I usually recommend the use of complete squat.

    For what is in my knowledge, Bondarchuk elaborate programs only for the throwers and this could be the reason of the different approach.

    In mine training programs finalized to increase the height of jump (training for vertical jump) I used the combination of both means:

    - the complete squat, executed slowly with the maximal load, as mean finalized to develop the maximal strength;

    - the half squat jump with barbell (30% of maximal load) to develop the explosive strength.

    It is probable that the use of half squat in the place of the complete squat, that I suggest, could assure a better growth of the height of jump, but should be very clear to the coach that doing this he could put in high grade of risk the athlete’s back and knees integrity.



    Yuri Verkhoshansky
    Last edited by Mark Rippetoe; 05-30-2011 at 10:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HONEYBADGER View Post
    So you see more similar angles to a vertical jump in a full squat than you do a half squat? Reversal points where the amortization phase takes place are more similar in a full squat? Forgive me if Im misenterpreting, but I understand the need for a full rom squat in addressing the total musculature of the chain, but I would like to understand why would it not be more beneficial to train at similar joint angles, more similar speeds, etc., to your actual sporting endeavor. Thanks again.
    Quote Originally Posted by ReverseHypertrophy View Post
    Dear Coach Rippetoe,

    I am confused as to how their mechanics are sufficiently different from "normal human movement patterns". Can you please clarify as to why you think this? For example, I see more similarities towards bilateral vertical jump (running or standing) and half squat rather than full squat or the squat style you teach with hips way back and shins very much perpendicular. Regarding dynamic correspondence, would you say your style (low bar full) covers this issue better than say a low/high bar half? If so, why?

    I am just a little bit confused regarding the "sufficiently different" comment because I have always been taught that half squatting indeed has more transfer towards vertical jumping but needs to either be phased in properly after full squats or used with extreme care.
    You guys must know each other.

    a. When a human jumps, he lowers to about a quarter-squat depth (depending on your squat terminology), and creates a stretch reflex at the point where the squat depth is sufficient to do so, but not so deep that the moment arms between hips and mid-foot/knees and mid-foot become long enough to require a lot of work to re-shorten. If you don't create enough ROM, you can't accelerate effectively, and if you go down too far you have too much work to do requiring too much time, blunting the effect of the acceleration. In other words, the shallow quarter-squat depth is the point where it is very easy to explode from, and very easy to squat from too. Why in the hell would that point need to be trained specifically if an athlete can already squat over 2x bodyweight below parallel, like he ought to be able to do? To strengthen this ROM, the easiest ROM to squat through anyway? Shouldn't his time be better spent getting actually strong?

    b. Partial squats are bad for the knees, especially at weights that actually challenge their easy ROM mechanics. I'll assume that well-informed guys that know what "amortization" means already know why this is. So, doing partial squats with heavy weights is bad for the knees, and we'll need our knees healthy so we can jump.

    c. Nobody performs partial squats with the same mechanics they use for a jump. I am aware of the fact that they could probably learn to do so, but why would you want to?
    I would like to understand why would it not be more beneficial to train at similar joint angles, more similar speeds, etc., to your actual sporting endeavor.
    Add to this list more similar loads and you will have an explanation for why you don't do weighted jumps, and why you also don't do partial squats.

    d. Why don't you just do the snatch and the clean? They are explosive in the correct ROM, they are incrementally loadable, and they don't hurt the knees because they omit the eccentric phase (which you already do in sports practice that requires jumping anyway).

    It is typical of physical therapy-based training systems that their whole premise is to copy the movement they are attempting to train with a loaded version thereof. This is never as effective as a program of simple, effective full-ROM strength training coupled with sports practice while getting strong. Both activities can be pursued with perfect technique, and both activities retain all of their attributes while acquiring no detrimental half-assedness.

    And let me introduce a new unfamiliar concept: Verkhoshansky was wrong about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    It is typical of physical therapy-based training systems that their whole premise is to copy the movement they are attempting to train with a loaded version thereof.
    But Rocky simulated boxing with dumbbells, at 2:15: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRFiTwQwcNk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    You guys must know each other.

    a. When a human jumps, he lowers to about a quarter-squat depth (depending on your squat terminology), and creates a stretch reflex at the point where the squat depth is sufficient to do so, but not so deep that the moment arms between hips and mid-foot/knees and mid-foot become long enough to require a lot of work to re-shorten. If you don't create enough ROM, you can't accelerate effectively, and if you go down too far you have too much work to do requiring too much time, blunting the effect of the acceleration. In other words, the shallow quarter-squat depth is the point where it is very easy to explode from, and very easy to squat from too. Why in the hell would that point need to be trained specifically if an athlete can already squat over 2x bodyweight below parallel, like he ought to be able to do? To strengthen this ROM, the easiest ROM to squat through anyway? Shouldn't his time be better spent getting actually strong?


    Well, I should have been more clear in saying I am referring to an athlete with adequate preparedness for spp methods (2xbw squat +, <10%bf, adequate mobility etc.). The problem with what youre saying is, its takes MUCH MORE than a 2xbw squat to create ELITE jumping numbers, at that range of motion. Now if your stance is that you can strengthen the top half of the movement faster by simply continuing to full squat than you could by implementing the half squat in brief micro cycles, I will note your stance, though I cant agree with it.



    b. Partial squats are bad for the knees, especially at weights that actually challenge their easy ROM mechanics. I'll assume that well-informed guys that know what "amortization" means already know why this is. So, doing partial squats with heavy weights is bad for the knees, and we'll need our knees healthy so we can jump.
    The forces at the knee during a maximal effort running jump or sprint and much higher than one could create with a half squat, so would strengthening that EXACT point in the weight room, not BENEFIT the athlete on the field/track? The body is great at adaptation, it just needs time to accomodate, so wouldnt preparing it better for those forces be an intelligent idea rather than ignoring them until, you "do your sport"?

    c. Nobody performs partial squats with the same mechanics they use for a jump. I am aware of the fact that they could probably learn to do so, but why would you want to?
    Add to this list more similar loads and you will have an explanation for why you don't do weighted jumps, and why you also don't do partial squats.

    d. Why don't you just do the snatch and the clean? They are explosive in the correct ROM, they are incrementally loadable, and they don't hurt the knees because they omit the eccentric phase (which you already do in sports practice that requires jumping anyway).
    Love olympic variations for performance training, tho I disagree that they MUST be started from the ground, the hang snatch (even better the jump snatch) and the vertical jump correlate extremely well assuming the bar is actually JUMPED up vertically and not "looped" as many do.

    It is typical of physical therapy-based training systems that their whole premise is to copy the movement they are attempting to train with a loaded version thereof. This is never as effective as a program of simple, effective full-ROM strength training coupled with sports practice while getting strong. Both activities can be pursued with perfect technique, and both activities retain all of their attributes while acquiring no detrimental half-assedness.
    Physical therapy practices are a WORLD away from PERFORMANCE training, and I hope that is not the vibe youre getting with my posts, I am referring to taking an athletes half squats to 3x bw + (once an adequate level of preparedness has been achieved throughout the entire muscular chain), which is very doable assuming programming is proper.

    And let me introduce a new unfamiliar concept: Verkhoshansky was wrong about this.
    very unfamilar concept but thank you for the introduction of it.


    Thank you for your detailed responses Mr. Rippetoe, I hope that you do not see this discussion as an attempt to discredit you in anyway but I really enjoy hearing your opinion on things, and hope that I and many others can learn from the points made and refuted in this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HONEYBADGER View Post
    [/B]

    Well, I should have been more clear in saying I am referring to an athlete with adequate preparedness for spp methods (2xbw squat +, <10%bf, adequate mobility etc.). The problem with what youre saying is, its takes MUCH MORE than a 2xbw squat to create ELITE jumping numbers, at that range of motion. Now if your stance is that you can strengthen the top half of the movement faster by simply continuing to full squat than you could by implementing the half squat in brief micro cycles, I will note your stance, though I cant agree with it.
    You can't create "elite" jumping numbers (36"+) with any kind of squat if elite jumping genetics are not already there. There are a lot of 800 squatters without a 28" vertical, and a 1200 half squat will not make this happen either. If half squats were the way to make elite jumpers, Gold's Gyms would be the Mecca of Jump. And what the hell does bodyfat have to do with this as a training goal?

    The forces at the knee during a maximal effort running jump or sprint and much higher than one could create with a half squat, so would strengthening that EXACT point in the weight room, not BENEFIT the athlete on the field/track? The body is great at adaptation, it just needs time to accomodate, so wouldnt preparing it better for those forces be an intelligent idea rather than ignoring them until, you "do your sport"?
    First, I don't know that this is true. And if it is, you don't think a heavier full squat strengthens the knees adequately? Why not?

    Love olympic variations for performance training, tho I disagree that they MUST be started from the ground, the hang snatch (even better the jump snatch) and the vertical jump correlate extremely well assuming the bar is actually JUMPED up vertically and not "looped" as many do.
    Well, I hope you realize that I would never deliberately encourage a guy to snatch with a loop. But you can snatch more from the ground than you can from the hang, so wouldn't your loading argument from above apply here as well?

    Physical therapy practices are a WORLD away from PERFORMANCE training, and I hope that is not the vibe youre getting with my posts, I am referring to taking an athletes half squats to 3x bw + (once an adequate level of preparedness has been achieved throughout the entire muscular chain), which is very doable assuming programming is proper.
    You cannot possibly be serious. A 3x bodyweight half squat is doable by most strong guys this afternoon, but what is the point? This is a useless distraction from actual strength training for sports performance; it sounds very scientific and therefore quite proprietary and marketable. And I understand that many expensive facilities are funded this way. But I don't deal with the genetic freaks who jump 38", so maybe I have no business opining here. I'll just say that a guy with the genetics to jump 38" can train by picking his nose and still be an elite athlete, so I guess 3x bodyweight half-squats aren't going to hurt him too much, maybe. By the same token, if he continues to jump 38", you can always claim that the half-squats did the trick.

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    I'll try to add my two cents to this discussion. And you are welcomed to correct me if I am wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    First, I don't know that this is true. And if it is, you don't think a heavier full squat strengthens the knees adequately? Why not?
    I think Honeybadger means that at the bottom of the half squat the ACL is being stretched and stressed, unlike at the bottom of the full low bar squat where it is kept in a rather neutral state because of the hamstrings' greater involvement (like you and Dr. Kilgore wrote in SSBBT 2)

    Honeybadger, the thing is that even if you are an elite athlete who participates in jumping sports, then you are already doing you jump training on the track (that you must do because it is your sport), your strength training, your plyometrics (which has also been proven beneficial to an advanced athlete) and your power cleans/snatches, don't you thing that adding extremely heavy half squats might be the straw that will break the camels back, or in the athletes case, the ligaments.

    I think that if you are looking for something similar to the pattern of the jump, then you are already jumping (which already strengthens the ligaments, since it is a partial movement, like Rip said), and if you are looking to strengthen your muscles, then nothing works better then the full squat and the deadlift, I think that there is no place for the half squat since everything is covered, and a human doesn't have endless recovery capabilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    You can't create "elite" jumping numbers (36"+) with any kind of squat if elite jumping genetics are not already there. There are a lot of 800 squatters without a 28" vertical, and a 1200 half squat will not make this happen either. If half squats were the way to make elite jumpers, Gold's Gyms would be the Mecca of Jump. And what the hell does bodyfat have to do with this as a training goal?
    Squatting is not even close to ALL that there is to training the vertical jump, its a wonderful base strength exercise but because xxx powerlifter squats xxx weight and cant jump 40 inches, is only a small piece of the puzzle. Im also very sure you know that RELATIVE STRENGTH is EXTREMELY important for anything involving propelling ones own BODYWEIGHT in the air or through it, yes there is a happy medium, but always gaining weight to get to a higher and higher squat will come do a dead end stop if jumping/sprinting is the goal. Its a pretty easy argument to win there, youre not going to see many 40+ (elite) jumps on guys with 20% bodyfat. I strongly disagree that a 36 inch svj is "elite" but thats neither here nor there, we may have different opinions based on the way we percieve performance training and what is possible with proper programming.



    First, I don't know that this is true. And if it is, you don't think a heavier full squat strengthens the knees adequately? Why not?
    I believe that a full squat, specifically a full low bar squat, the way you teach it, is the single best GPP method to prepare the body for the more intense SPP methods, THAT WILL RESULT IN THE MOST IMPROVEMENT IN SAID EVENT. The full squat is done SO THAT YOU CAN PROGRESS, to higher levels of force absorbtion/production, and do the things that can actually create ELITE performance in ATHLETES. Note that I am not saying the half squat is the ONLY spp method, but its a PROGRESSION, into a more intense, more task specific, exercise.

    I have had plenty of atg obsessed guys jumping much less than they should be, the point in the squat, the reversal point, becomes HABIT. We are only allowed so much time in a jump to produce MAX force, of course you know how important the amortization phase is in any jump, and how success or failure can be predicted based on it almost ALONE. These athletes are not good at turning around loads "amortization point" at the POINT THEY NEED TO BE. When they get better, at that SPECIFIC point in the range of motion, at developing max force, AT THAT POINT, they will improve the jump, bar none.



    Well, I hope you realize that I would never deliberately encourage a guy to snatch with a loop. But you can snatch more from the ground than you can from the hang, so wouldn't your loading argument from above apply here as well?
    I have heard your side of the bar path argument and am 100% for a vertical bar path, IF the goal is performance enhancement. I wont argue whether or not more weight can be lifted with the other method because it is not my field, but for athletes, you wont get nearly the carryover from a more "hippy" bar path as you will from "jumping" the weight up.



    You cannot possibly be serious. A 3x bodyweight half squat is doable by most strong guys this afternoon, but what is the point? This is a useless distraction from actual strength training for sports performance; it sounds very scientific and therefore quite proprietary and marketable. And I understand that many expensive facilities are funded this way. But I don't deal with the genetic freaks who jump 38", so maybe I have no business opining here. I'll just say that a guy with the genetics to jump 38" can train by picking his nose and still be an elite athlete, so I guess 3x bodyweight half-squats aren't going to hurt him too much, maybe. By the same token, if he continues to jump 38", you can always claim that the half-squats did the trick.
    You do realize I am referring to ATHLETES, specifically athletes in performance oriented sports, and a 3+ x bw LEGIT half squat is a good number for most any of them. If you dont think that an athlete can be trained to a legit 36-38 inch vertical jump, given a reasonable time frame, without having "elite" genetics, we can just agree to disagree on that, but its done all the time. Btw, ELITE jumping from a standing vertical jump standpoint would be much more like 40+, running would be 45+, but thats neither here nor there. And I am absolutely not looking to "validate" any specific method, I am trying to understand your belief held here that you should ONLY full squat, when performance enhancement is the training goal.

    I noted what you said about "not making the squat EXACTLY like a jump" which i agree, but the point in the range of motion, THATS MOST AFFECTED BY STRENGTH, in the vertical jump, is the BOTTOM PART. So learning to TURN AROUND LOADS, at that POINT IN THE ROM, is going to be VERY important. Do you still disagree with this?


    thanks again for your time Mr. Rippetoe.

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    Default i thought the 1/2 squat myth was over years ago...

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    I saw a special on David Thompson arguable the greatest jumper in basketball history, it is was on a couple of years ago. In it he mentioned as a youth he had a coach at the YMCA who had him do weighted full jump squats. I always found this interesting. I am not a big technical guy but that spring you get from a full squat and the strength obtained from doing full squats is a hard combination to beat and I think would aid in the improvement in any sport.

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