Incorporating the half squat into an athletic program

[Robert Callahan]

How about instead of a half squat you just do the jerk or push press?

I have seen oly lifters set the safety bars in the squat cage to the same depth they go for jerks, then increase the load and do squat jumps in an effort to strengthen that ROM for the jerk.

Seeing as how Verkhoshansky was talking about training throwers, and the jerk is probably one of the best weight room exercises for them (explosive hips combined with explosive upper body) I would guess this is how he meant for them to be used. Not as a replacement of full squats, but in addition to them as a jerk supplement.

[zephed56]

And let me introduce a new unfamiliar concept: Verkhoshansky was wrong about this.

But Rip, he's Russian.

[HONEYBADGER]

How about instead of a half squat you just do the jerk or push press?

I have seen oly lifters set the safety bars in the squat cage to the same depth they go for jerks, then increase the load and do squat jumps in an effort to strengthen that ROM for the jerk.

Seeing as how Verkhoshansky was talking about training throwers, and the jerk is probably one of the best weight room exercises for them (explosive hips combined with explosive upper body) I would guess this is how he meant for them to be used. Not as a replacement of full squats, but in addition to them as a jerk supplement.

Push jerks and push presses are great exercises, similar carryover as snatches and cleans. The loading you can use with a push press/jerk is minute in comparison to what is capable with a half squat, and its much more of a rfd exercise. and guess what, if the half squat improves the jerk, what else you think it will improve?

I saw a special on David Thompson arguable the greatest jumper in basketball history, it is was on a couple of years ago. In it he mentioned as a youth he had a coach at the YMCA who had him do weighted full jump squats. I always found this interesting. I am not a big technical guy but that spring you get from a full squat and the strength obtained from doing full squats is a hard combination to beat and I think would aid in the improvement in any sport.

Mr. Jim Moser, David Thompson is not arguably even CLOSE to the greatest leaper in basketball history, he was one of the earlier pioneers of dunking on a regular basis, doing things like 360's etc., at 6'4, that hadnt up to that point been done before. Do me a favor, search "tfb" on youtube.com, and you will be enlightened on what constitutes a "great" leaper. Doing full rom jump squats is a good idea for athletes that jump out of atg squat stance, not sure what that sport would be.

We are only able to apply MAX force over a VERY small range of motion in a jump, the very very bottom, that is half/quarter squat depth, after that POINT, acceleration takes over and we are no longer applying max force. So strengthening THAT POINT, in the range of motion, is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, if jumping is the primary goal.

thank you for your time though sir and contributing to the discussion.

Mr. Moser

David Thompson 6-4





T dub 5-9





that is just one of about 100 examples I could give you, but I think you can see that Thompson is not even CLOSE to the "greatest leaper".

[Mark Rippetoe]

I strongly disagree that a 36 inch svj is "elite" but thats neither here nor there, we may have different opinions based on the way we percieve performance training and what is possible with proper programming.

I'd say that 36" in an untrained guy indicates elite neuromuscular capability, and the capacity for a 38-39". What is the current world record in the standing vertical jump?

I have had plenty of atg obsessed guys jumping much less than they should be, the point in the squat, the reversal point, becomes HABIT. We are only allowed so much time in a jump to produce MAX force, of course you know how important the amortization phase is in any jump, and how success or failure can be predicted based on it almost ALONE. These athletes are not good at turning around loads "amortization point" at the POINT THEY NEED TO BE. When they get better, at that SPECIFIC point in the range of motion, at developing max force, AT THAT POINT, they will improve the jump, bar none.

We, of course, do not teach the ATG squat, for various reasons. You are apparently saying that the half-squat can exactly duplicate the precise reversal point in a SVJ. I am saying that you are kidding yourself if you think you can be this precise with a 3x bodyweight load, and that it won't have adverse effects on the knees.

You do realize I am referring to ATHLETES, specifically athletes in performance oriented sports,

I, of course, have only had experience with non-performance oriented sports like football, powerlifting, and Olympic weightlifting, where performance is obviously irrelevant.

and a 3+ x bw LEGIT half squat is a good number for most any of them.

What is a legit half-squat? How is it quantified? Post a video. I can do a 550 lb. half squat today, and so can 5 of my guys here in this gym and about 300 guys I can call on the phone. This is primarily because there is no way to quantify a half-squat.

If you dont think that an athlete can be trained to a legit 36-38 inch vertical jump, given a reasonable time frame, without having "elite" genetics, we can just agree to disagree on that, but its done all the time.

It's NOT done all the time, and that is simply bullshit. Any athlete that has a legit TRAINED 36-38" SVJ started out with a 30-32+. Show us your data, and show us the video of the jump test method you use.

Btw, ELITE jumping from a standing vertical jump standpoint would be much more like 40+, running would be 45+, but thats neither here nor there.

Of course it's here or there. How many 40" verticals on your team? Video, please.

And I am absolutely not looking to "validate" any specific method, I am trying to understand your belief held here that you should ONLY full squat, when performance enhancement is the training goal.

You are not trying to understand anything. You are merely here to CAPITALIZE.

I noted what you said about "not making the squat EXACTLY like a jump" which i agree, but the point in the range of motion, THATS MOST AFFECTED BY STRENGTH, in the vertical jump, is the BOTTOM PART. So learning to TURN AROUND LOADS, at that POINT IN THE ROM, is going to be VERY important. Do you still disagree with this?

Yes, still. I disagree that 3x bodyweight half squats accomplish this objective. So do my colleagues in team sports S&C.

[ReverseHypertrophy]

Dear Coach Rippetoe,

Thank you for your kind reply to my previous post, and for all of your replies in this thread. Let us forget, for a second, about 3xBW half squat, and instead think about how improvements in strength correlate to improvements in jumping ability. In the world of performance training, strength training yields the greatest transfer only if the load moved occurs in an appreciable time frame, for example, moving very heavy loads in say 1second. Moving very heavy loads too slowly, has less transfer to the task of vertical jumping. So, you say that you can go ahead and half squat 550 right now, this instant, but can you do so in 1 second or less? Do you believe your reversal at half depth would be powerful enough to move such a load in such a small time frame? Perhaps that is where our opinions on performance training differ.

I mean this with absolutely no disrespect to yourself or your forum, but, I think that is what everyone here is missing. To improve "on field performance" considerably, max strength must not simply rise, but it must do so in regards to time frames which result in greater improvements of explosive strength and thus RFD. Regardless of what weight you can move in 1 second or less, it has to improve. If for some reason, your max strength rises with disregard to time, those gains will not transfer to athletic events, and thus is the case with powerlifters for example, or gym rats who "half squat". If all gym rats who half squatted were to do so with absolute emphasis on reversing the weight as fast as possible & thus improving the amount of force produced during the coupling phase, or isometric phase that comes between the eccentric and concentric phases, you would see more impressive gains in athleticism (if they were to accompany lifting with jumps & sprints for example).

Regarding the knees, I don't see how half squatting would be any more intense than the game of basketball, or intense plyometric/reactive exercises. Instead, half squatting would be far less intense than those activities, regardless of the % of load used. In fact, deep squatting carries a higher risk of meniscus injuries than half squatting, which could become a problem for very active individuals who supplement strength training into training regimes that consist of a large amounts of "impacts", the last thing you would want is "fissures" or "fatigue" of the meniscus tissue if you are jumping & thus landing, sprinting, change of direction etc. I'm not saying this is a very big risk, but it is a risk nonetheless. As for half squats, the greatest risk would involve the vertebral column, but that is the job of the athlete himself or the coach to progress slowly & safely.

I will leave you with a post from James Smith regarding half squats, what are your thoughts?





"Thinker, do you think this statement is incorrect conisdering your posts on Half squat correspondence to vertical jump

QUESTION: 4. "Forget about the more specific quarter squats and half squats. Many strength coaches falsely believe that quarter squats have more transfer to improving the vertical jump, because the load is greater and the range of motion resembles the motion to preload for jumping. Actually the opposite is true, A high vertical jump is highly correlated to a full range squat not to a quarter squat. Why? Because full range squats strengthen the VMO, while quarter squats and half squats do not do it. A strong VMO prevents the knees from buckling in during pre-loads and landings".


ANSWER:
Well Joe, though I grow tired of correcting and clarifying issues that seem to me to be so glaringly obvious- I'll do it again here because Poliquin, or who ever said this, might very well mislead anyone who reads it.

I won't waste anyone's time by offering solely my opinion, however.

I'll speak from the empirical results I've obtained from my own training (see my training log if anyone is curious as to whether I actually practice what I preach because I Olympic squat double bodyweight and parallel box squat 2.3x bodyweight at 110kg bodyweight), my coaching of D-1 American footballers, my previous coaching of high school American footballers and PE students, (all of which totals in the hundreds of athletes) and paraphrase the work of Bosco, Colli, Bonomi, Duvillard, and Viru.

I will then allow the readers to decide who to believe because I would be selfish, despite the amusement it brings me, to discredit and annihilate the work of others here on the Q&A.

1. why do coaches repeatedly assume that a reduced amplitude exercise automatically indicates that a greater load is being lifted? while the reduced amplitude facilitates greater mechanical advantage to lift greater loads are the athletes being held at gunpoint to lift greater loads?

2. the shorter the amplitude of movement the greater the facilitation of higher rates of movement

3. Higher movement rates equate to higher training intensity via higher power output

4. Higher movement rates recruit the high threshold motor units and corresponding white fiber- the same fiber that is recruited via explosive VJ efforts

4. The full squat, while a fantastic strengthener of the leg extensors is inherently a slower movement to execute (load being equal).

5. The slower the movement the greater the likelihood of lower threshold MU activation and corresponding red fiber

6. The mechanical likeness of the half or quarter squat transfers much more positively to the VJ

So, in term of dynamic correspondence the half or quarter squat far eclipses the full squat in terms of number of criteria satisfied relative to VJ performance; however, in any regard the programming and organization of training must be optimized in order to yield meaningful outcomes and it is the complex of and sequence of means utilized that deserves far more attention than any single means in abstract.

Perhaps most importantly, the role of the VMO must be clarified via meaningful research:

E. Taşkıran1, Z. Dinedurga1, A. Yağiz2, B. Uludağ3, C. Ertekin3 and V. Lök1
(1) Department of Orthopaedics and Traumatology, Ege University School of Medicine, TR-35100 Bornova, İzmir, Turkey e-mail: Taskiran@med.ege.edu.tr Fax: +90-232-374 6597, TR
(2) Department of Physical Therapy, Ege University School of Medicine, Bornova, İzmir, Turkey, TR
(3) Department of Neurology, Ege University School of Medicine, Bornova, İzmir, Turkey, TR
Abstract In this study, the effect of dynamic stabilizers on the patellofemoral (PF) joint was investigated in normal volunteers (group I) and in patients with patellar pain (group II) or instability (group III) by using computed tomography (CT) analysis and integrated electromyography (iEMG) of the quadriceps muscle. Nine subjects (16 knees) from group I, 10 patients (12 knees) from group II and 8 patients (12 knees) from group III were included in the study. CT scans of the PF joint with quadriceps contracted (QC) and uncontracted (QU) and iEMG of vastus medialis obliquus (VMO), vastus lateralis (VL) and rectus femoris (RF) were obtained with the aid of a specially designed jig at 0°, 15°, 30° and 45° of knee flexion. The same muscle contraction pattern simulating closed kinetic chain exercise was used for both CT and iEMG. The difference between the congruence angles (CA) and tilt angles (PTA) in QC and QU positions and VMO:VL ratio from the iEMG were calculated separately for each flexion angle. CA was increased in all groups with quadriceps contraction at 0° and 15° of flexion. PTA was decreased in group I and increased in groups II and III with quadriceps contraction at the same flexion angles. This difference was statistically significant in group III at 0° and 15° of flexion. Quadriceps contraction did not affect the patellar position significantly even in the instability group at 45° of flexion. In all flexion angles the balanced VMO:VL activity ratio was observed only in group I. In the other goups, VL activity was higher than VMO activity except at 45° of flexion. These findings do not support the hypothesis of dominant centralizing effect of VMO on the patella in extension, but the effect of the VMO may be more clearly demonstrated by measuring PTA in both QC and QU positions.



Also review:
http://www.jbjs.org.uk/cgi/reprint/79-B/1/13.pdf

while the VMO is found to support against lateral patellar shift between 0 and 15 degrees knee flexion(http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...68003399000893) and 0 and 30 degrees of knee flexion (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=affiche.../'patellar centralization' as well as prevent against patellar subluxation, there are certainly far more less demanding means of training it other than Olympic style squats- SUCH AS EXERCISES PERFORMED OVER THE AMPLITUDES OF MOVEMENT THAT THE VMO HAS BEEN PROVEN TO BE MOST ACTIVE.

Weightlifting full squats demand a degree of mobility far beyond that which is required during the execution of most sport acts and certainly far beyond the working range of many athletes who might otherwise enjoy a full sporting career never having been cut short because they do not possess the requisite flexibility to squat like a weightlifter with limit loads.

The majority of non-weightlifters, in fact, would be foolish to risk the possible structural trauma that is presented as part of a cumulative result of squatting maximal loads through the entire amplitude concurrently with varied gradations of sport practice.

Anyone who states the contrary cannot possibly understand the training problems inherent to working with athletes year round whose practice of SPP yields a high structural demand to the legs and knees specifically."




Regards,

ReverseHypertrophy.

[EvanJones]

Hello Mr. Rippetoe, I would like to know your opinion on incorporating the use of half squats in micro cycles during a program specifically designed for improving athletic performance in events such as jumping and sprinting. Thank you for you time sir.

Isn't it pretty well established that a program of full squats, deadlifts, and power cleans will have this same effect? If we already know what will improve an athletes jumping and sprinting ability why distract yourself with anything else.

[Gymmoser]

Dear Honeybadger,

That is why I said arguable. Showing his dunks from that era mean little as he did not need to elevate any higher then the competition at the time. I was simply stating what I heard he did. In the clip you sent I did not see them taking a quarter off the top of the backboard and leaving change, but hey that was just a rumor David Thompson probably did not leave the change. Lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQPVK...e_gdata_player

[Mark Rippetoe]

In the world of performance training, strength training yields the greatest transfer only if the load moved occurs in an appreciable time frame, for example, moving very heavy loads in say 1second. Moving very heavy loads too slowly, has less transfer to the task of vertical jumping. So, you say that you can go ahead and half squat 550 right now, this instant, but can you do so in 1 second or less? Do you believe your reversal at half depth would be powerful enough to move such a load in such a small time frame? Perhaps that is where our opinions on performance training differ.

They probably do. I'd like to see the video you no doubt have of an athlete reversing a 600lb. half-squat in less than a second. And I'd like to see your explanation for why this is less dangerous for the knees than a full squat, as you claim below.

I mean this with absolutely no disrespect to yourself or your forum, but, I think that is what everyone here is missing. To improve "on field performance" considerably, max strength must not simply rise, but it must do so in regards to time frames which result in greater improvements of explosive strength and thus RFD. Regardless of what weight you can move in 1 second or less, it has to improve. If for some reason, your max strength rises with disregard to time, those gains will not transfer to athletic events, and thus is the case with powerlifters for example, or gym rats who "half squat". If all gym rats who half squatted were to do so with absolute emphasis on reversing the weight as fast as possible & thus improving the amount of force produced during the coupling phase, or isometric phase that comes between the eccentric and concentric phases, you would see more impressive gains in athleticism (if they were to accompany lifting with jumps & sprints for example).

See my summary smartass remarks below.

Regarding the knees, I don't see how half squatting would be any more intense than the game of basketball, or intense plyometric/reactive exercises. Instead, half squatting would be far less intense than those activities, regardless of the % of load used.

You don't? Have you never done these yourself? You don't see the difference in explosive half-squats with heavy weights and the bodyweight jumps that occur hundreds of times in a basketball game?

In fact, deep squatting carries a higher risk of meniscus injuries than half squatting, which could become a problem for very active individuals who supplement strength training into training regimes that consist of a large amounts of "impacts", the last thing you would want is "fissures" or "fatigue" of the meniscus tissue if you are jumping & thus landing, sprinting, change of direction etc. I'm not saying this is a very big risk, but it is a risk nonetheless. As for half squats, the greatest risk would involve the vertebral column, but that is the job of the athlete himself or the coach to progress slowly & safely.

Please compare for us the number of knee injuries that result from full squats to the number of knee injuries that result from jumping & thus landing, sprinting, change of direction etc., that you want us to be in shape to do. Data, please.

I will leave you with a post from James Smith regarding half squats, what are your thoughts?

I think that it is obvious that a guy squatting 600 below parallel is more powerful than the same guy squatting 300. I think that the process by which he doubles his full squat more than adequately prepares him for the increased power outputs necessary to improve his jumping ability, and that the timeframes are of secondary or tertiary importance to the net increase in force production attendant to doubling his full squat, for the same reason that a guy who deadlifts 600 cleans more than a guy who deadlifts 300. I think that dwelling on gimmicks like explosive half-squats have gotten lots of people hurt while doing very little for their sports performance when compared to the benefits of full ROM strength training. I think that full squats are quite obviously safer for the knees, that you don't have any data or even any anecdotal evidence that says otherwise, that I have 35 years of personal experience and many accumulated thousands of trainees who have never injured a knee meniscus doing correct full squats, and that full squats are therefore the safest, most productive way to spend time training for what little improvement can be made to the vertical jump, especially for athletes that are not already VERY strong in the squat. Furthermore, I think it is easier to appear to be a elite specialist than it is to actually be a competent generalist.

[HONEYBADGER]

I'd say that 36" in an untrained guy indicates elite neuromuscular capability, and the capacity for a 38-39". What is the current world record in the standing vertical jump?

Well if someone was jumping 36 without ANY training, then I would agree they had VERY GOOD genetics for jumping, but all you have to do is look at the nfl combine numbers, look how many jumps over 36-38 there are, and note that these are athletes not training SPECIFICALLY for vertical jumping. You are also referring specifically to a STANDING VERTICAL JUMP, and a RUNNING JUMP< OR MAX VERTICAL, is much more relevant to many athletes, such as high jumpers, volleyball players, and basketball athletes.

We, of course, do not teach the ATG squat, for various reasons. You are apparently saying that the half-squat can exactly duplicate the precise reversal point in a SVJ. I am saying that you are kidding yourself if you think you can be this precise with a 3x bodyweight load, and that it won't have adverse effects on the knees.

not "exactly", but much more closely than a full squat can.

I, of course, have only had experience with non-performance oriented sports like football, powerlifting, and Olympic weightlifting, where performance is obviously irrelevant.

I was not taking a shot at you by any means, I am merely stating that what is of utmost importance regarding training someone for speed and athleticism, is not neccessarily identical to training someone to compete in a powerlifting meet or an olympic weightlifting contest. I realize that you also train athletes from differents sports, I am merely suggesting that maybe there are some missing pieces being overlooked. I do however appreciate your opinion on the matter or I wouldnt have asked for it.

What is a legit half-squat? How is it quantified? Post a video. I can do a 550 lb. half squat today, and so can 5 of my guys here in this gym and about 300 guys I can call on the phone. This is primarily because there is no way to quantify a half-squat.

a 550 legit half squat is good, especially if these guys weigh around 150. Obviously a guy weighing 200+ doing the same event wont be nearly as RELATIVELY strong in the same range of motion. LEGIT half squat would be, slightly above parallel. I agree that there are many definitions of what that entails, but in the end its up to the coach to make sure its being done correctly. The number means nothing if performance doesnt rise with it.

It's NOT done all the time, and that is simply bullshit. Any athlete that has a legit TRAINED 36-38" SVJ started out with a 30-32+. Show us your data, and show us the video of the jump test method you use.

The jumps are always done on a vertec, whether this is a running vertical jump or not, and yes, its done a lot. I am not here to promote myself and my athletes, and I'm not trying to flex my nuts etc., and "show u up", but please look at college, arena, high school, and pro combine numbers on the svj test and I think you will realize those numbers are not that big of a deal. 38+ is going to be top tier in MOST of the combines for skill position players.

Of course it's here or there. How many 40" verticals on your team? Video, please.

Are you referring to ONLY standing vertical jumping numbers? I already stated 40 standing would be ELITE, 40 running is not. I dont train a "team", I train athletes, from different teams, and individual sports on many different levels. I am not trying to promote myself here, I am merely having a discussion with you and do not wish to get my athletes involved what is turning into a flame war with some of your forum members. If youre really interested in who I train and who I have trained, Im sure you can see my IP and see that Im not too far away from you, you can also see that there is a big University here, and a high school known for its football success and producing some really good athletes. Im not claiming at all to be responsible for any of that success, but to assume that I dont get my fair share of elite level athletes capable of putting up vertical jump numbers over 36 inches is insane. Pm me if you would like more info, Ill be more than happy to discuss this with you personally as well as link you to some of my athletes achievements and videos on the net. as I said it would be very unprofessional of me to involve my athletes in a discussion that can turn into a flame war on your forum.

You are not trying to understand anything. You are merely here to CAPITALIZE.

See this actually hurts my feelings that you feel this way. I humbly asked you a question and wanted to have a discussion with you because I ACTUALLY VALUE YOUR OPINION. I have stood up for you on the performance side of things many times in trying to get bull headed coaches not to dismiss your way of squatting like they do other "powerlifting" styles, seeing that there is really much value in it. Its not the same as a sit way back and neglect the quads squat, and any time you bring up "low bar squats", thats what people generally think of. Why would I try and "capitialize" on YOUR forum? I see many things that I learn from you regarding strength training, do you not think that discussing something that MAY ACTUALLY BE OF VALUE regarding performance training is worthwhile? I actually respect you a lot, I just think you are being closed minded to something that may help you and your athletes on this forum, if they are interested in vertical jump/speed specific training. I also wanted to know why you were so against any spp type methods, and still do not have a good reason other than old wives tales that are simply not true. If you think I am trying to discredit you by this thread we can end it now though I would enjoy finishing the conversation and not getting into a silly flame war that no one learns anything from.

Yes, still. I disagree that 3x bodyweight half squats accomplish this objective. So do my colleagues in team sports S&C.

Dont know if this is exactly correct as it was linked to me today, but is Bill Starr a "colleague" of yours?

Bill Starr on page 81 of Strongest:

"One of the best ways to overload the muscles of the legs and hips is by doing heavy half or quarter squats. What most people call a half squat is in actuality a quarter squat, so I will use the latter term.

"The quarter squat allows you to overload the squatting muscles. Whereas you might only be able to full squat with 250 x 10 or 300 x 5, or 325 x 3, you will be able to use in excess of 400+ in the quarter squat. This builds a great deal of strength in the hip area, which is the center of power for any athlete."

thanks again for your time.

[HONEYBADGER]

Dear Honeybadger,

That is why I said arguable. Showing his dunks from that era mean little as he did not need to elevate any higher then the competition at the time. I was simply stating what I heard he did. In the clip you sent I did not see them taking a quarter off the top of the backboard and leaving change, but hey that was just a rumor David Thompson probably did not leave the change. Lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQPVK...e_gdata_player

Mr. Moser, yes the rumors of touching the top of the back board are insanley wrong, if he is referring to a legitimate nba style goal. David Thompson could jump well and was one of the early pioneers of doing tricks with his dunks, but not any where near some of the guys now. I understand where the confusion comes from but there is plenty of footage of him dunking in contests, etc., and the height he achieves is miniscule in comparison to some of the elite jumpers we now have. There are old rumors of earl manigualt doing the same feat at 6'1, and it boiled down to some backboards on a streetball playground, that was not anywhere close to the height of an actual real backboard. If you watch the videos of the guys I linked, and look at the difference in the vertical achieved, I think it will be very clear to you.

thank you for contributing to the thread Mr. Moser and appreciate your insight regarding the half squat.