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Thread: Tactical fitness

  1. #71
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    • starting strength seminar april 2024
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    Note to self: Walk Prowler daily. It already knows sit/stay.

    Seriously... best thread yet.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlentzner View Post

    I would also note that Wendler has lately been recommending walking with the Prowler as opposed to running with it.
    Full disclosure, I believe the prowler is awesome.

    But... we do not know the full value of the Prowler , or how to use it efficiently. I believe some people are a 70 % solution, very few people. Currently anything new people do with a Prowler will cause the body to adapt. It has been referred to here as the beginners effect.

    So lets not get carried away with the Prowler options. Experiment , learn, share data, and find the 3 X 5 linear progression for prowler. Lets not just sit here and use it random, after we do not do that with the lifts, correct?

  3. #73
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    Lactic acid production is not the same thing as its accumulation in the muscle or blood stream as the mitochondria use lactic acid just as readily as they use pyruvic acid. So, when you view the entire spectrum of physical activity from complete rest all the way to maximum anaerobic capacity we cannot even detect increases in lactic acid production without some pretty sophisticated techniques, as for the majority of that spectrum increased production is matched by increased clearance by the mitochondria of the same muscle.

    Once you appreciate that it is clear to see why the mitochondria, the “aerobic powerhouse”, are so important for the performance of so called “anaerobic” tasks – the more of it you have the greater the rate of lactate production (and with it ATP synthesis from glycolysis, AKA “anaerobic metabolism”) can be tolerated before it starts to accumulate in the muscle to cause local impairments and before it spills over into the blood and accumulates where it contributes to an acidic, hypercapnic state that produces all the systemic symptoms of working at the limit of your tolerance (“prowler flu”).

    So, as for your second paragraph, I think the most generous interpretation is that you’ve read something and misinterpreted it as the reality is that high levels of anaerobic energy production produces a stimulus for mitochondrial production. This is the basis of effectiveness of high intensity, interval style training.

  4. #74
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    A bit late to this but adding to the original point of this thread:

    A buddy of mine went to BUD/s (Navy Seal training), and prior to BUD/s they now have to go to Great Lakes for some pre-training that just makes sure they have the physical foundation to make it in BUD/s. Lo and behold they do programmed barbell lifts alongside the swimming and running training to get prepared.

    Once in BUD/s they stop the lifting and most sane things, as it's more of a test to see who really wants it at that point. But you better believe after this phase it's about getting bigger/stronger and ready to fight.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    So lets not get carried away with the Prowler options. Experiment , learn, share data, and find the 3 X 5 linear progression for prowler. Lets not just sit here and use it random, after we do not do that with the lifts, correct?
    Who has suggested that we use the prowler randomly?

  6. #76
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    Default Mr. Rip You have changed the way I see many things in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    [...] the process of becoming "conditioned", i.e. being able to work at at high HR/Respiration Rate, actually takes about 3 weeks, so you're never more than 3 weeks away from being conditioned. So you can plan accordingly, and there is absolutely no reason to devote 4 months to what amounts to the catabolic destruction of your strength progress. If you are really and truly employed in a profession that demands a broad spectrum of physical adaptation, I'd recommend that you step back from the dogma and analyze your experience in that job: what physical parameter has contributed the most benefit to your ability in the field? If it is your ability to run 5 miles, you'd be in a rarefied profession. If it is your ability to move quickly and move heavy shit RIGHT NOW, I'd say that strength and power (its derivative) is the adaptation of most benefit to you, with conditioning being nice to have but not as crucial as the strength necessary to move you and the heavy shit.

    So in the latter case, I'd have you on a strength program 3 days/week and pushing the prowler once/week. You stay in shape, you stay strong, and your not sore and inflamed all the time. Systemic inflammation is the process that tears down your strength training progress during your CF 'season". The prowler produces no soreness, it preserves your strength progress, and it is a frighteningly effective tool for conditioning. If a need for heightened conditioning comes up on the schedule, change your program a couple of weeks out, but the prowler work will keep you in good enough shape to handle any real-world situation you may encounter in the field that does not involve high-rep snatches done incorrectly for 3 minutes.
    This goes to my Kindle and personal library. This is indeed a great mini article.

    You have changed the way I want to train from now on.


    We don't have a prowler here so, I'll have to make one or find something to emulate the prowler effect. Perhaps pushing a car or dragging something heavy?




    Anyway, Thank you very much Mr. Rip.

  7. #77
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    I asked Joel Jamieson if he could provide some more details about how the anaerobic system can reduce mitochondria. Here's his response.

    The science behind how it happens is not simple and most people simply don’t understand the details behind the mechanics of what happens during prolonged levels of very high contributions from anaerobic glycolysis. There’s a couple of ways that mitochondrial destruction can happen.

    First, calcium begins to accumulate as long as H ions are causing the electrochemical potential to stay negative and this accumulation is followed by water intake down the osmotic gradient, leading to swelling and stretching of the inner membrane. This can cause a chain of events that leads to rupture and activation signals that cause cell death.

    Second, high ROS concentrations can also change the membrane permeability and lead to leakage of cytochrome C into the cytosol. This interacts with APAP-1 to form dATP. Deoxygenated adenosine triphosphate, which begins another cascade that leads to cellular aptosis as well.

    There’s some Russian textbooks by a guy named Seluyanov that discuss their research and changes in mitochondrial density following various types of training and they give some specifics as well. I’ll see if I can dig some of it up, but you will certainly have to look around pretty deep into the science to get to the details of how it happens, but yes, it does happen and whoever tells you differently hasn’t done their homework.

  8. #78
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    So sprinters have lower numbers of mitochondria as a result of their training? Has this been measured?

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlentzner View Post
    I asked Joel Jamieson if he could provide some more details about how the anaerobic system can reduce mitochondria. Here's his response.
    I have had to rewrite this twice as both previous times it came off as condescending and confrontational, which isn’t my intention, but the reality is that you are confused. The problem here is that you are trying to have a conversation about some fairly nuanced aspect of bioenergetics despite clearly not understanding the basics that well. The entire paradigm you view for how and why lactate is produced and how it’s metabolized is wrong. If understanding this stuff is more important that simply having a pissing match on the internet I would recommend you go and read Ch 5 and 6 of Brooks’ Exercise Physiology: Human Bioenergetics and it Applications as a starting point.

    You have presented a view of lactic acid as being a uniquely anaerobic substrate, but the reality is that lactate production increases as a function of exercise intensity, even from the very lowest levels – production is higher when walking leisurely than it is when sitting. We do not see this increase in production systemically because the mitochondria of the muscles that produce it have the capacity to oxidize it (intracellular lactate shuttle). It is only when this shuttle is saturated that further increases in lactate production result in systemic increases in lactate. It is at this point that some people start thinking of an activity as anaerobic, but it is a false distinction if lactate production has increased fairly linearly up to that point. What is clear though is that more mitochondria would increase the saturation point of the shuttle and thus allow for a greater rate of lactate production before systemic overflow occurs, with its myriad of problems.

    Once you appreciate the relationship between lactate and mitochondria, just from applying Selye’s GAS theory, it should be pretty clear that training in a way that makes lactate accumulate in high concentrations is going to be a great stimulus for mitochondrial biogenesis. Luckily for me, there is significant volume of literature that shows this. Hell, we’re seeing studies that show mitochondrial biogenesis from just a single sprint training session. You know what more mitochondria mean? It means greater oxidative and aerobic capacity. High-intensity, low-volume conditioning improve cardio.
    A simple free access introduction - http://jp.physoc.org/content/575/3/690.long

    The science behind how it happens is not simple and most people simply don’t understand the details behind the mechanics of what happens during prolonged levels of very high contributions from anaerobic glycolysis. There’s a couple of ways that mitochondrial destruction can happen.

    First, calcium begins to accumulate as long as H ions are causing the electrochemical potential to stay negative and this accumulation is followed by water intake down the osmotic gradient, leading to swelling and stretching of the inner membrane. This can cause a chain of events that leads to rupture and activation signals that cause cell death.

    Second, high ROS concentrations can also change the membrane permeability and lead to leakage of cytochrome C into the cytosol. This interacts with APAP-1 to form dATP. Deoxygenated adenosine triphosphate, which begins another cascade that leads to cellular aptosis as well.

    There’s some Russian textbooks by a guy named Seluyanov that discuss their research and changes in mitochondrial density following various types of training and they give some specifics as well. I’ll see if I can dig some of it up, but you will certainly have to look around pretty deep into the science to get to the details of how it happens, but yes, it does happen and whoever tells you differently hasn’t done their homework
    As to the specifics of that, it does not support your assertion. It does not relate anymore to what you’d term anaerobic conditioning than it does aerobic, and even if it did it only deals with aspects of mitochondrial breakdown. The editorial I linked to above starts to describe the way that high intensity training stimulates synthesis, so even if I was to concede that these comments from Joel do actually relate more to anaerobic conditioning (and I don’t), it is only a part of the picture.

    You do make a good observation with an earlier comment that high intensity (or low volume) training may not provide a complete adaptation, and your analogy to strength training exclusively at the very low end of the rep range is a good one. There is a growing picture developing that as effective as high intensity conditioning is in the short-term it does seem to lack the volume required to induce changes in cardiac morphology that we typically think of as the hallmark of cardiovascular adaptation. As important as that is for high level of certain types of cardio, that isn’t what we’re talking about in general in this thread and it isn’t what the vast majority of people who read this board are interested in. I get it, I’m a soccer player, or was before hip injuries did me in. So, historically high levels of cardio have been important for me, but I can also tell you from personal experience that my game applicable level of conditioning ever was achieved when my focus was on lower volume and higher intensity, often with intervals, than it was when I focused on what might be viewed as more traditional cardio. Most importantly from your perspective, how much of a focus you put on the cardio volume of an athlete’s training should be based on how important high level of cardio is to the athlete not on some misguided fear of an antagonistic response to high-intensity interval conditioning.

  10. #80
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    I'm not completely comfortable speaking on behalf of Joel and his bioenergenic models. What I can do is describe a method from his book, Ultimate MMA Conditioning, that is specific described as being mitochondrially (making up words here) hostile.

    Lactic Capacity Intervals
    Bouts of 90-120 seconds (sprints given as one example)
    2-4 series of 3 bouts
    Incomplete Rest Intervals between bouts (1-2 minutes)
    Active rest between series (4-6 minutes)
    Work to complete fatigue

    So, to the extent that a training session resembles this, you could have a net loss of mitochondria in the tissue involved (according to Joel). To my knowledge, sprinters don't train like this.

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