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Thread: Vertical jump misleading

  1. #1
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    Default Vertical jump misleading

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    Rip,

    My question is about the vertical jump as a general indicator of the time it takes to gain strength using the SS program.

    I am a male, 26 yo, 6' tall with about 3 months of SS "on paper" (was injured a few times, but recovered effectively, though had to reset the program to lower weights). I started SS at the same age with little strength training prior, especially no squats and few deadlifts. I did play high school and low level collegiate sports, but unfortunately, little to no strength training was involved. I weigh 217 currently, started at 155.

    I was listening to some podcasts where you talk about vertical jump being an indicator of genetic potential and how quickly one might gain strength. You used a broad example sounding something like: 'a guy with a 36 inch vertical might come in and start squatting 225, because he has a more efficient neuromuscular system than someone with an average one.'

    When I was actively playing sports in college, I had a 31 inch vertical, which was measured with a "vertec" - a little above average maybe, certainly nothing close to spectacular or whatever. Before I started SS and gained 70 lbs, it had tapered off but was still in the 28" - 30" range.

    When I started SS, however, I couldn't squat above 75lbs for 3 x 5. I could barely deadlift 120. It seemed normal at the time, but knowing what I know now, it seems like it should have been higher. I know 31" vertical isn't jaw-dropping or anything, but I would bet anything that guys have come into your gym with worse verticals that I, and started off with 110, 120, even 135. There are many reasons I can imagine as to why this might be - poor form, bad recovery and nutrition, "YNDTP", but I experienced all the things you describe in your book: the 10 lb jumps not working after 2 weeks or so, the gallon of milk a day and its benefits, etc, so I must have at least done a few things right.

    My question is: is it possible for someone, like myself, to have ok, or even decent, genetics for power and not for strength? I can't think of any other reason why I shouldn't have started with more weight on the bar, besides being a pussy, but I'll tell you right now that was not happening. Perhaps I didn't know how to use that power under additional load? What is your analysis on this, if you don't mind giving it?

    Thanks in advance for your time.

  2. #2
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    The answer is, no normally. So not normally that I question your vertical. The Standing Vertical Jump test (SVJ) is performed without a step or any other movement than the downward countermovement stretch reflex. Describe precisely how the test was performed. Was there a step?

  3. #3
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    And how exactly was the reach performed?

  4. #4
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    Your results could be anomalous due to the fact that you started weighing 155 at 6' tall whereas the people with larger SVJs Rip is referring to generally have more mass per height.

  5. #5
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    Coach Rip is right, as usual.

    At 18 yrs old, 5' 7'', 170 lb, my first day of camp at LSU, my SVJ was 38'', parallel squat 225, power clean 185. I did zero lifting before then except very minimal Universal stuff at the high school gym the previous spring, just worked on the railroad all summer. I had never done ANY barbell training in my life before that day, but did have a nice tan for the summer http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/redface.gif

    After 2 seasons I was a bit leaner 180, squat 455, cannot remember PC weight, lifting about 6 months per year. My SVJ increased to about 40'' in that time. IOW, exactly what Coach has been saying.

    By comparison, my brother is a basketball player/coach, not as athletic, but a lot of skill. His SVJ is about half mine, as was his strength then, and now that we are both in our 50s.

    HTH

  6. #6
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    Yes, that is the only other thing I could think of - poor measurement/incorrect procedure. After warming up a little, this is how it was administered:

    We were brought to the vertec, which was stabilized at the bottom and lowered so that we could reach up and touch the flags for the first measurement. There were measurement markers on the side of the vertec that showed how tall it was from the first flag to the floor. We were told to stand perfectly still, to not bend sideways at the waist or go up on our toes, and to raise our dominant hand and flip the flags around to measure the reach. This measurement was recorded for each of us. I do not remember how tall the vertec was at this point. Then, the vertec was raised up, again, I cannot remember how far, and we were asked to jump up and touch the flags. We were not allowed to take a step, a run, double step, etc. Each jump was made from a complete standstill. It was: stand under the flags, crouch, and jump. I'm not sure exactly how the math worked with the measurement markers on the side of the vertec (not the flags, but the markers that told you how high it was raised), but basically our reach was subtracted from our jump, and that gave us our verticals. Mine was like 31 point something. Math was done by coach and assistant coach.

    To address the part of my post where I say that prior to SS, the reach was still around 28 - 30 inches: this was not done officially. The only "official" measurement I got was with the vertec.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfranc View Post
    We were brought to the vertec, which was stabilized at the bottom and lowered so that we could reach up and touch the flags for the first measurement. There were measurement markers on the side of the vertec that showed how tall it was from the first flag to the floor. We were told to stand perfectly still, to not bend sideways at the waist or go up on our toes, and to raise our dominant hand and flip the flags around to measure the reach. This measurement was recorded for each of us.
    This is the problem. The first reach is flat-footed, but certainly with a shrugged shoulder as high as possible, since that will be the position of the shoulder at the top of the jump and we are measuring the jump, not the jump + reach. So, subtract the reached/shrugged distance from your 31 and that's your real vertical. Probably about 26.

  8. #8
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    So, I did in fact shrug the shoulder as it turns out. I was perfectly upright, but my scapula was shrugged up with my arm. I found some old notes in a shoe box from 6 years ago when I took the test, believe it or not. My reach was 89 inches with a shrugged shoulder, I wrote down.

    In addition, just to paint a better picture, I compared my shrugged shoulder with flat feet, vs shrugged shoulder and waist bend to get my hand even higher against a wall (not super accurate, but I made sure I was smashed up against the wall as much as possible). The difference in reach is only about 1 inch

  9. #9
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    Forgot to add that while the reach was 89, the jump was 132, which is actually more that 31 total, including the shrugged arm which did occur, according to my notes that I took 8 or 9 years ago... crazy that I still have that and other old sports stuff in that box.

    I don't understand how I could hang on the rim of a basketball hoop but have such a wimpy first day training. I was pretty wimpy back then, I guess... 10 percent bf and 145 lbs if I remember right.. pretty skinny, pretty light... not sure if that matters though.

  10. #10
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    starting strength coach development program
    Then I don't know, have seen neither you, the SVJ, nor the lifting.

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