Pull-ups

[Anon321]

Hi, this is a sentence from the book:

"Pull-ups are harder, and they probably emphasize lat involvement more since the absence of the biceps means that something else must do its work."

This is why I plan to pull-up instead of chin, strong lats are more important to me. However, strengthening the rotator cuff muscles is even more important. Is there a significant difference between chin-ups and pull-ups for this purpose?

Also, I know that a vertical humerus combined with a "packed" scapula position results in impingement on the press, which is why you teach shrugging the shoulders. Does this mean that bringing the scapulae downward to initiate pull-ups will also result in impingement? Or does it not apply due to the more externally rotated humerus? (Or is it internally?)

Thanks.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Since they is very little difference in humeral rotation with a supine or prone grip, bot affect the cuff muscles about the same way. As far as impingement in the chinup, I have never felt it.

[spiderbro]

I don't understand how the lack of biceps means something else must do its work. If something else (like lats) could do that extra work, why wouldn't they do it in chin-ups? Why wouldn't they contract as hard as they can in chins?
Also, the brachioradialis does some of the biceps' work since the change in forearm pronation allows that. But it's a weaker (smaller) muscle so all in all you just end up being able to lift less, making pull-ups harder.

[spiderman]

Rip! Humeral rotation is about the same with pull-up and chin-up?! Next we'll see you saying that posterior chain contribution in high bar and low bar squats is about the same?!

[Mark Rippetoe]

I don't understand how the lack of biceps means something else must do its work. If something else (like lats) could do that extra work, why wouldn't they do it in chin-ups? Why wouldn't they contract as hard as they can in chins?

If your bodyweight is 135, let's assume that 120 of it gets lifted in a pullup/chinup. If the grip is supine, the bicep helps with elbow flexion, and some of the 120 is lifted with its contribution. If the grip is prone and the bicep cannot contribute, 120 must still be lifted. Something else must lift it.

Also, the brachioradialis does some of the biceps' work since the change in forearm pronation allows that. But it's a weaker (smaller) muscle so all in all you just end up being able to lift less, making pull-ups harder.

You do understand, after all.

Rip! Humeral rotation is about the same with pull-up and chin-up?! Next we'll see you saying that posterior chain contribution in high bar and low bar squats is about the same?!

Hold your arms up like you're going to chin. First, supinate the hands, then pronate the hands, and note the change in humeral rotation. It is minimal.

I await your devastating deconstruction of my argument.

[Anon321]

From the reading I've done on this board, you frequently advise chins and presses for rehab of various shoulder problems. It's always chins and presses, never "chins or pull-ups". So is this because most people are more capable of performing chin-ups, as opposed to them being better for the shoulder?

[Anon321]

Don't approve my last post, this one better sums up my question.

You frequently recommend chinups (along with presses) for shoulder rehabs, but I've never seen you recommend pull-ups. Do you leave pull-ups out of your recommendations because they are somehow less safe on injured shoulders, or because you have a preference for chins and most people find them easier to actually perform?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Do I have to explain this again?

[Anon321]

No, but could you point me to where you've explained it?

[Mark Rippetoe]

No.