Hip movement, not head. Head doesn't move that much in a correct press, although it angles back as the hips move forward.
Member
Is head movement in Press 2.0 another reason (besides the hip extension) that the weight moves from midfoot to the toes, albeit temporarily? I know the eye gaze should not move from straight ahead during Press, even if the head moves back as the hips extend.
I really appreciated Tom's video, just as much as CJ Gotcher's article on midfoot balance.
TMPHBITEU
Hip movement, not head. Head doesn't move that much in a correct press, although it angles back as the hips move forward.
Member
Good stuff, and does anyone else think Tom looks like a tall Adam Sandler?
Starting Strength Coach
Yeah, but Tom's laugh isn't annoying, and Adam Sandler is probably pretty weak compared to Tom.Originally Posted by Meshuggah
Member
And also makes better movies. At least compared to Sandler's latest efforts.
Member
RE: "looking down" from Matt Gary/Sioux-z Hartwig-Gary of SSPT
Do you always prescribe the downward eye gaze as the best, most efficient place to look when squatting? Does this rule bend for those who have honed their squat technique to support a horizontal eye gaze, e.g. Sioux-z, Karwoski, and the amateur/recreational lifters that don't look down?
The following are comments from SSPT's video regarding eye gaze:
[link removed -- we do not provide page views for other coaches]
SSPT:
Rippetoe espouses a neutral head position with a downward gaze. We espouse keeping the spine neutral with an upward gaze. The body will follow the head. When looking down, the body has a tendency to want to fall forward. Additionally, with an elbows up position and hands draped over the bar, the back isn't locked in properly which also leads to a soft back and the bar rolling up the back. Couple that with the head being down and you've got a recipe for disaster.Hersheyquest3:
So, for the record, you are saying Rippetoe's method is complete shit right? He seemed to know what he was talking about and knows his physiology. I am just confused on what is best here, seeing as his Starting Strength program is probably the most popular beginner program. I find it hard to believe that he is way off basis. Thanks for your reply.I read the five paragraphs in the squat chapter of the blue book regarding eye gaze. I understand that balance is easier to achieve when looking down. I've seen the results of eye gaze tests through standing on a foot, or squatting looking up vs. down (done with and w/out a bar), tested on myself and with my new-to-squatting friends. I also understand that looking down can prevent, especially with new lifters, the forward lean that can result from looking forward/up while squatting, which causes the hamstrings to slack distally, killing "hip drive". And regarding SSPT's comment regarding a good morning squat, I am aware that Campitelli posted that "good mornings are rarely seen".SSPT:
No. I'm not saying that his methodology is completely wrong. In fact, most of it is anatomically & physiologically correct on paper, in principle, & theory. I do not believe it's correct in practice & application. You don't want the head down, hands draped over the bar, nor do you want to lead w/ the hips coming out of the hole. While this indeed may create a straight line (anatomically), it inevitably leads to (especially in novices) a good morning with the bar out in front of the feet.
As someone totally new to this stuff, I am conflicted when I see other successful people teaching in a completely contrasting way to what I've been taught as "correct". Some differences I can throw in the trash, but some others seem to have merit, like this eye gaze thing. I guess that the cues can be set in a hierarchy, from most to least required for a proper squat.
I personally follow your downward eye gaze cue. I first learned how to squat from an SS coach. Only SSCs have coached me during my entire lifetime squatting experience of six months. I personally don't know how to squat looking up or forward, with bent wrists and toes pointed forward. I have only practiced barbell lifting in accordance with the Starting Strength models. However, I've wondered why there are certain techniques that are so ardently promoted here as opposed to elsewhere, namely the eye gaze and wrist position in the squat, and the couple issues regarding hips and foot position at the start of the clean/jerk and snatch. But never mind issues as this is an "eye gaze direction" thread.
TMPHBITEU
Our reasoning is explained in far greater detail than anyone else's in the book. We do not "drape" our hands over the bar, as our instructional videos demonstrate. The vast majority of the time this method receives criticism, it is uninformed.
I suggest you try their method, decide which works best, and report back.
Member
Their eyes forward doesn't work for me. Part of this is due to my limited squatting experience, and that 95% of my novice experience has been spent looking down while squatting. I continue to struggle with reconciling the differences between Starting Strength and those who squat don't look down, despite being able to squat anywhere between 100 lbs to 1000+lbs.
I perceive increased tightness in my back and lats when the thumbs are wrapped around the bar, wrists extended, bar actively pulled down and across my back, and with the narrower grip that wrist extension allows. But loading my wrists in extension causes pain as I injured my wrists five months ago due to improper racking technique while performing power cleans. I positively cannot continue to practice this extended wrists technique, despite what seems to be an advantageous position for muscle recruitment/tension.
TMPHBITEU
Member
I'm familiar with this video and your method of squat grip, with neutrally extended wrists, thumbs over barbell and moderately elevated elbow position.
In my second paragraph above, when I wrote "extension" I meant "over-extension", to report on what I noticed when trying the alternative squat grip with over-extended wrists as shown on the SSPT tutorial.
Anyways, thanks for looking at yet another post of "why is everyone doing this differently from you, please reconcile" as I'm sure you've been asked this at least a hundred times since 2007 and earlier.
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