It just occurred to me I may have been unintentionally replying with PM's. Does that seem to be the case, Jordan? I had thought it was delayed moderation, but you're quoting from posts I can't even see, so that must be the case.
Forum noobs...
Member
That's probably the sum total of our disagreement, on the ceiling of protein percentage. I've seen little agreement anywhere on this range. (And when there is agreement, it's a range spanning quite a bit). The life works of many MDs, PhD's, writers, and researchers to include Esselstyn, Campbell, Fuhrman, McDougall, Goldhamer, Lisle, and Greger have been quite formative to my opinion. I've seen quite a bit from them among others to convince me that protein toxicity from chronically elevated intake is a much lower % than we have been led to believe.Why are you against protein and are you sure your opinion on protein is different than mine? It seems like you think that 10% of daily calories from protein is optimal for most strength power athletes, which I'd vehemently disagree with, even on 5000 cals a day.
I have to rely on them to sort through the muck in the same way I have to rely on Rip to sort through the NASC nonsense. Surfing PubMED is useless to me when a billion dollar industry rides on only one side prevailing and getting heard. There is no money to be made on a low-protein diet, especially one in which supplementation is not necessary.
I have great respect for your attention to detail and your nose to the literature, but I have more knowledge of the history of your profession than I wish I did. Your forebears do not exactly cover themselves in glory. We could start at Hippocrates and Galen and work our way forward, but I don't think either of us have the time.
Granted, none of the people I mentioned have concerned themselves even remotely with high level strength athletes; their focus is health and longevity. I have virtually nothing to go on in this area but my own experimentation, thus, here I am. Not trying to stir shit up, really, just putting it out there. Think I'm a goof, fine. We'll see. I just want someone to give me some numbers that if I can hit will by default mean that maybe I'm not such a moron. And then not cop out by saying, "Well yeah, but think how strong he'd be if he would just eat some steak!" That's what I heard in the above Kendrick Farris comment, and is why I felt compelled to chime in (to my chagrin--getting no remunerative work done!)
The other stuff thought I answered already; if not, sorry. For some reason I can't see my own posts.
Member
It just occurred to me I may have been unintentionally replying with PM's. Does that seem to be the case, Jordan? I had thought it was delayed moderation, but you're quoting from posts I can't even see, so that must be the case.
Forum noobs...
Starting Strength Coach
I have yet to see any evidence that healthy populations (not suffering from renal disease) experiences protein toxicity or that higher protein intakes predispose you to later renal failure. Especially in older populations, the tendency is to vastly underconsume protein, not the other way around.Originally Posted by Brian Patton
FTFY.I have great respect for your attention to detail and your nose to the literature, and since I don't have an argument to address yours, I'm going to name drop like crazy and then go for the 'reverse appeal to authority' tactic, implying that your personal depth of knowledge is irrelevant because your profession has tainted your perspective in some unquantifiable but negative way.
Member
Brian, you may have done so in your PMs, but I don't see you answering Jordan's question re: your best lifts and at what weights. I need to admit to reading quickly, maybe I just missed it, but if you haven't answered, I gotta say that falls into "kind of a big deal" when you talk about how your recovery is off the charts.
TMPHBITEU
Refresh my memory, guys: have we ever had a masters vegan troll this board?
Member
Brian,
No matter what nuts, seeds, legumes, soy, grains, and whatever else you eat, it is just not as good as milk, eggs, beef, and other animal products. Veganism is, at best, sub-optimal for being strong. That seems to be fine with you, and that's okay. However, considering this board is concerned with what's most optimal, talking about vegan diets is simply a waste of time.
Member
Meh. It's not a sin to disagree with Starr. Rip disagrees with some of his thoughts, and SSCs disagree with some of Rip's. It happens, and hopefully we learn from the ensuing discussion.
How could we feasibly do that? There are way too many variables to say "squat X lbs and deadlift X lbs, then we'll be convinced."
Member
Apologies, wasn't trying to troll and run. There's this weird discrepancy between the mobile site and the desktop versions that wasn't allowing me to see my own posts. It was like talking to someone without being able to hear my own voice. I didn't even think what I was responding to was getting through, and then people would quote my posts in their responses that I couldn't even see yet. And now suddenly there're all back after a few days and in the proper order but with strange edits from the "voice of God" added in. (Rip, is that you? Morgan Freeman?) Is there some kind of Forum Newbie Double-Secret Probation that I'm unaware of?
Anyhow, I realize I probably got a bit ahead of myself. I wasn't trying to "namedrop" or reverse-appeal to anyone's authority (I doubted anyone would even know who those people were), just sharing a glimpse of where my perspective originated. As in, through vastly experienced people practicing medicine on actual clients, numbering in the thousands across several decades with life-changing results. Yes, this is anecdotal in nature and not the Gold Standard of double-blind RCTs. But it is the same thing Rip has done over his career and no one here challenges his reliance on that collective knowledge. Because sometimes the plural of anecdote can actually be data, even if not necessarily in the clinical sense.
I really do admire this site and the company behind it and the philosophy within it, and the obvious integrity that positively oozes from a decision not to mass produce SS coaches across the fruited plain like so many factory pencils. (Is the sucking up working? Yay!) Maybe Rip's just betting on the long ball here, and knows his brand will still be worth a shit when the Santa Cruz BoxTrolls' brand finally comes full circle and merges with P90X and BeachBodies. But either way, it means something when someone decides they don't really want to be a multi-millionaire that bad. I respect that. (Although, if ATX can have SRV immortalized in bronze, then WFT should hurry up and get a plaster made of MRT at the WFAC before his head gets any bigger or they're be SOL).
I won't pretend to have read through the entirety of this forum--I'm barely through the article and video archives yet--so maybe you all have this same argument with silly vaygans every three months or so until you beat up on them enough to run them out of Dodge. Sorry if that's the case. Sucks having to have the same debate fifty times over. But I'm not going anywhere. I've already been to one training camp with Nick D. at Darin Deaton's CF in Ft. Worth and another one scheduled for next month in Arlington, and I'm fully paid up already for the seminar at the WFAC in December. So regardless, I'm all in. If that still makes me a troll, well at least I'm a paying troll.
As far as numbers, I'm not positive what my previous best lifts were--we're talking nearly 25 years ago. I was just a mediocre high school athlete at best, so I'm guessing it was nothing to write home about (probably a low-200's bench and maybe a 300 squat, and likely a high squat at that), and at a BW of about 160. Fast forward across 20+ years of mostly silly bullshit and at least the last 5 years of not barbell lifting at all and we're now talking LP starting weights of 165/135/195/85 in the Sq/Bn/DL/Pr at a BW of 155#. Barely four months later and every lift has more than doubled to 345/285/405/175 (Sq/Bn/DL/Pr) and my BW is now up to 185# at approx. 14-15% BF (calipers), up from 9-10% at 155# (also calipers. Sorry, no dexa scans. I don't really care enough to drop a Benjamin on it).re: your best lifts and at what weights.
Is this some kind of miraculous result? No. This is precisely what SSBBT3 and PPST3 state over and over can and does happen. But I also did it while maintaining the same whole foods plant-based diet I've had for the past several years, and probably not nearly enough total volume of food until just the past month or so (I do take general advice to heart). And I'm 41. And spent the past five years practically squeegeeing my testosterone right out of production with my endurance sports addition. So there's that. When I said my recovery is "off the charts", I simply meant in comparison to what I was used to in the past and what I was led to expect as a master's lifter. If it is perfectly normal to add 10-15# weekly to every lift for 4 straight months at my age, then I stand firmly corrected. My recovery is "to standard" as per the SS novice LP.
I do believe I overstated (or misused, really) the term "toxicity" with regard to protein, meaning it in the long-term sense over a lifetime and not in regards to acute renal failure or a clinical diagnosis of any kind. But I have come across much to suggest that excessive protein loads (specifically from animal sources) are highly correlated to cancer formation as well as nearly all diseases of old age. Naturally, this is fought against widely and vociferously, for reasons too numerous (and obvious) to go into, as I fully expect it will be around these parts, and I'm really not inclined to beat that horse any further at this point. If already occupies a third of the damn internet as it stands, right behind climate science and the Kardashians.I have yet to see any evidence that healthy populations (not suffering from renal disease) experiences protein toxicity or that higher protein intakes predispose you to later renal failure. Especially in older populations, the tendency is to vastly underconsume protein, not the other way around.
Aristotle also thought conducting actual experiments on matters he knew to be true was a waste of time. You know, super hard things to test like gravity. And everyone nodded in agreement for nearly two millennia until Galileo and later Newton. Now, I'm no Isaac Newton--I'm not even Fig Newton--but I'm pretty confident to date no one has performed a long-range study of proper strength training utilizing a proper plant-based diet in a controlled lab setting using a statistically significant subject pool of intermediate to advanced lifters. Especially considering how often Rip tells us that the Exercise Physiology Wizards of Smart aren't even conducting those studies properly using untrained college students on the single-leg extension while on standard American diets over six weeks. The earlier supra-reductionism on "fractional protein synthesis" notwithstanding.Veganism is, at best, sub-optimal for being strong... considering this board is concerned with what's most optimal, talking about vegan diets is simply a waste of time.
But if someone out there's got a MIC DROP of a link you want to throw down, go for it. I'll pick it up and slap myself with it. But it needs to involve actual people, not petri dishes. And it can't have been initiated and sponsored by MuscleTech USA or its cut-outs.
Come on, there has to be some number theoretically that would cause you to at least revaluate your thinking on some level, even if it's just to say, hmm... maybe I don't need the MEGA MASS XTREME INFINITY WITH PROPRIETARY GLUCOSAMINE (now in cookies n' creme) after all. Because if not, that says more about you than about me. A one-ton combined total in the 5 main lifts wouldn't be enough? (US, not metric, just to be clear, for those of you in the GRE). For a 5'8 drug-free, no-T, White Man Who Can't Jump in his forties? Shirley, you can't be serious. I'm not saying I can get there, mind you. But there has to be a number. And at least you wouldn't be able to say, "Well, yeah, he built all that strength with steaks and shakes, and now he's just coasting on all the kale and kombucha." The Kendrick Ferris defense, as it were.There are way too many variables to say "squat X lbs and deadlift X lbs, then we'll be convinced.
In any event, this really is just an experiment to satisfy my own personal curiosity, not necessarily to prove anything except what is possible, for me. I simply thought I would share. Sorry if it gets everyone's panties in a wod. (Just typed that by mistake. Had to leave it).
But hey, less bacon for me is simply more bacon for you. It's a win-win. I may never end up squatting more than 4 and my pull may stall out around 5. Who knows. But maybe we'll also see who is still lifting and who is still breathing at 85. (Assuming the country is still living by then. I have my doubts).
But either way, you've given me plenty of motivation now to keep forging ahead with this, so I thank you in advance. The siren song of strength-sapping endurance training can be terribly addicting (as "someone" might put it), especially without a clear mandate to ignore it and keep lifting. I'll keep chiming in from time to time with updates for anyone who's interested. Just like those irritating little herbivores that won't stop crapping in your driveway and dart out in front of your car.
Shik-shak.
TMPHBITEU
There may be a weird discrepancy in your phone, but this website has been carefully designed to be viewed on mobile devices, and most the other members will attest. I have not edited your posts, and neither has anyone else.
Member
Brian, I appreciate having differing view on the site and I would worry about getting other's panties in wods. However, this has been discussed before on the site
PJ Media: Protein?
Some of what you are saying, is right in a certain context. Specifically, those under study with high protein diets were not doing strength training. The exercise changes the dynamic quite a bit actually.
Essentially, you are concerned with high IGF-1, which is caused by a combination of genetics and protein consumption. However, IGF-1 is used for hypertrophy by the muscles while strength training and not as much by the rest of the body and not used by the muscles for it's normal purpose while strength training.
Your choice to be a vegan is all you. We don't believe you won't achieve better strength because of it. We simply believe it won't be optimal (as well as Kendrick Farris's), which is fine for yours and Kendrick's choices.
Choosing to be a vegan for health reasons though doesn't pan out as well as you might think. Not just protein but more importantly it is a diet lacking in vitamin B which is probably just as important for general health.
Mark,
Sometimes the site time's me out and my posts don't go through. I think that might be what he is experiencing.
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