In what configuration were their low backs at the top of the pull they could not lock out? Round, i.e. in flexion, perhaps?
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'Sacrificing long-term progress for short-term gratification'
Two different young guys dead-lifting the past week.
Guy 1 was bouncing 315 for 10 reps, and failed a 405 max.
Guy 2 was bouncing 275 for reps, and failed a 365 max.
They managed to pull the bar up the majority of the way, but both of them could not lock-out the final 3 inches -- it was like Phil Anderson at 622lbs, (but they never made it to the lean-back part).
Since both 'gentlemen' struggled with the exact same issue, I was wondering if the causation factor for both lockout fails was due to their bouncing their volume multi-reps.
-Jeremy
TMPHBITEU
In what configuration were their low backs at the top of the pull they could not lock out? Round, i.e. in flexion, perhaps?
✓ Member
'Sacrificing long-term progress for short-term gratification' - I think the same in a different context. If I continue to increase my ID squat by 2kg every week, am I looking for short term gratification at the risk of hitting the wall sooner (and hence hindering my long term progress)?
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Yeah, not giving us much to go by. Did the gentlemen in question bounce the reps first and then attempt a max? How old and big was Guy 1 and what's his nutrition/programming/training history like? How old and big was Guy 2 and what's his nutrition/programming/training history like? Like coach Rip says, what's their form like? Are they wearing good shoes? Are they using shitty plate math (using 25lb plates for height instead of 45lb plates)? And so on and so forth.
Doesn't really matter. I'd never blame a faulty lockout on bouncing your reps. If Guy 1/2 successfully locks out 10/??? reps with 315, I'd expect him to lockout a 1RM attempt ceteris paribus. Bouncing the deadlift I assume makes the pull off the floor easier because you're not stopping. Why would the lockout be the sticking point for guys that only pull off the floor like they're on a bouncy castle? The real issue-again, ceteris paribus-would be overestimating their 1RM. As someone who could only pull 360x1 after pulling 315x5 quite a while back, I wouldn't think the 1RM of someone bouncing 315x10/??? to be 405, a whopping 45lb more than my old 1RM. (Funnily enough, the sticking point then was off the floor, yet I've never bounced a single rep.) And I should know; I'm the best deadlifter there ever was.
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Volume work is volume work. At a certain point, one needs to train heavy triples and singles. It's a different animal. My opinion (uneducated) is that neither of these guys have any business attempting a max (or 10s for that matter) and should probably keep running 5's for a while.Originally Posted by Músculo-Tonto
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Both failed to 'stand up' at the top. The angle behind the knees was at about 170 degrees (slightly bent), and the backs were leaning forward about 5-10 degrees short of being 180 degrees perpendicular to the floor/ceiling.
Both were 25 years old, or less; "315@10" dude had relative lean body-mass composition (gotta have abz types); "275x10*" dude had a noticeably thicker body-mass composition. The sets of 10@315, for example, were the last 'warmup'. Both waited about 5 minutes between their last bounced multi-rep 'warm-up', and the 1RM attempt. Standard-size 45s were the base-plates. The max-attempt pulls had good start positions, pretty decent vertical bar-paths, and no 'fishing-rod' back formations during the pulls.
Aside: Come to think of it, this happened to a third individual, 30ish for age (recorded in the "0$" of my last cycle). His stance was Sumo, though -- but it was the same bullshit. Bounced reps at 135, then 225, then 315; rested for a bit; attempted a Sumo-pull@405, and he didn't (couldn't?) stand-up properly either.
It is very possible that these guys, in a rush for glory, were too lazy to complete the 1RMs properly -- unwilling to lock-out properly. My curiosity about their failures -- since they occurred under roughly the same circumstances and at the same part of the pull (albeit different weights) -- was that they were, perhaps, unable to lock-out properly, a side-effect from bouncing all their volume training. My original thought on this matter agrees with Scaldrew, that difficulty breaking heavier weight off the floor would seem to be the more logical end-result of training DLs with the bounce-technique. However, I don't claim to be the expert on this; perhaps both extremities of the DL can be affected? -- I don't know.
* Realized my error in not including this information in the OP.
TMPHBITEU
Bouncing the bar off the floor makes for weak backs. Weak backs make locking out deadlifts hard.
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What a bunch of nonsense. (the OP, not the statement of weak backs making locking out deadlifts hard) While the OP might have noticed some egregious form errors on multiple rep sets, we don't know why the bros failed to lock out a heavier weight. It might have been that they were fatigued - I don't think I could pull a very heavy single after a decent set of ten. Maybe they just weren't strong enough to pull 405 (a standard gym deadlift weight, probably because of the ease of loading). Also, were the reps truly bounced (put down in such a fashion to achieve a rebound effect from the floor), or were they touch&go reps, ala Kirk Karwoski in his "Cadet to Captain" video?
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Besides all the noise about bouncing, form etc. The boys don't seem to have a grasp on training and are apparently learning from gym mates.
The fact that they are warming up with 10's before an attempted maximum pull indicates a lack of experience and knowledge.
Two possible outcomes for these individuals. They get hurt or frustrated and quit deadlifting and discourage everyone they come into contact with from deadlifting, they seek out the knowledge on their own accord and possible learn to train.
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I am well aware on the TnG DL technique, as opposed to plate-to-platform rebound -- which these were (To compare, TnG bench-press is much different to watch than when the rib-cage (or hip-thrust bridging) is used as a trampoline-effect). I 'didn't know the reason' either. A common observation was make in each case, and I was wondering if there was a direct co-relation between action-A and failed-action-B. I didn't make a statement, but asked a question. The answers which were posted have given me a conclusion, that being it was likely coincidence and nothing more. I have gathered what I wanted to know -- the thread is now closed to me.
-Jeremy
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